apathy

The components are not the same, but the DAC (digital to analog converter) is the same. And that's what is making the sound quality. You can look at the guy above's post and see that everything I've said is true. They all convert the digital signal to analog, and they all do it the same way. You seem to think that Eclipse and Alpine design their own DACs, which is also wrong. Or maybe you just don't know what a DAC is. I know you don't know how a HU works, so I don't understand why you are trying to tell me they have better SQ.

My facts? I've told you my facts. The signal is THE SAME. No matter what you think or what you've heard, the signal is the same. Like the guy above says (and I said before), it's the EQ, amp, and speakers that matters. Shaping the sound. Boosting the power. If an aftermarket HU has an EQ built into it, it will shape the sound better. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH BETTER SOUND QUALITY.

I can sit here and tell you that putting in a higher output fuel pump in your car will vastly improve horsepower. Why? Because more fuel to the motor means more power output. Of course this is WRONG. And a million people telling you that you need a higher output fuel pump in any given application doesn't change the fact that they are all WRONG. I keep waiting for some company to start saying "We now use 36 bit DACs in our car audio for the best possible SQ." CD music is 16 bit, so even 24 bit is overkill. But every schmo in the country would run out, buy the 36 bit one, and tell everyone how far superior it was to every other deck in the market.

Splicing in a good LOC (I prefer this to LLC) will not degrade the signal quality. It takes more work to get this done, but there is no loss in quality.

SSInnovations

iTrader: (8)

Thanks for all the great info!

Even though I really should not have spent anymore money on this, I finally decided to just go ahead and get an aftermarket HU. I am confident if I took the time to set it up properly I would have been completly happy with my factory HU, but since I am replacing everything else, this is just going to be allot easier. I went with an Eclipse CD5444, which is a unit I have been looking at for a while. The main reason I picked it was because it has a slot to accept a memory stick and I already have a 1 Gig stick for my mp3 player. Found it for 339.00 which I think is a great price.

So heres what I've got;

Eclipse CD5444
(2) Infinity Kappa Perfect 5.1 component systems
(1) 12" Infinity Kappa Perfect VQ Sub
(1) Infinity REF610A 600 Watt Class D Subwoofer Amplifier 456 watts RMS x 1 channel at 4 ohms
(1) Infinity REF7540A 520 Watt 4-channel amplifier 111 watts RMS x 4 channel at 4 ohms

I kind of feel bad adding all this weight to my baby, but Ive just had it with the blown monsoon.

Before Im finished I have to get all the wiring for everything and build a box for my sub but that is going to have to wait until next pay.
I am not sure where I should mount the tweeters for the components and have no idea where I can conceal the two amps, but I guess Ive got 2 weeks or so to figure that out.

Considering the best sound I'm used to is from the Bose in my Envoy, and this is the first aftermarket system I have ever had in a car, I am sure Ill be very happy with it. I am going to take pictures as I install it and post them if anybodys intrested.

Thanks again for all the info!

apathy

That's cool man, you get whatever you want.

I have an mp3 player myself, I love it. 180 something songs on a CD. Wunnerful. Hope you enjoy it!

kazino21

Apathy I who is the guy who offered the $5000 bet please, would love to take his money off him . Maybe if you changed to well recorded cd's rather than mp3's you could hear the difference in sq, otherwise I would agree with you that all head units sound the same if you fed them with a 128bit MP3.

apathy

Don't know him personally, just another face on a board. And I'm talking about the sound quality produced by the HU, not mp3 bitrate. A store bought CD.

Doesn't really matter if you agree with me or not. I'll gladly say I'm wrong if you tell me why I'm wrong. But then, I've had this exact same conversation with other guys that think just like you, and nobody has proof. Just a giant waste of my time.

You can buy whatever you want. You can also think I'm an idiot, and I'm wrong. That's your perogative. I was just telling him the facts, rather than marketing and opinion. If you think a 1500 dollar head unit produces better sound quality than a stock head unit, I've got some cross drilled rotors that will help your braking ability, and a granatelli MAF that will produce some SERIOUS horsepower.

Crack that HU open and look at who produces the internal parts, and look at how many other HUs they are in. Or come take a ride in my celica which has stock HU, factory amp running to factory speakers, and sounds great.

It's all in your head, darling. But you buy what you like, doesn't bother me.

Craig123

how about me and you make this bet Apathy. Ive been testing and researching into the Sound Quality different head units produce for about 4years now. I may not be able to lay down any straight facts for you, but I will be able to show you the oscilloscope graphs showing you the frequencies cut short by the stock headunit. The internal components are of a poor build and will nto allow the full freuqency ranges to travel.

I will take photos and film the graphs produced.

Snootch

iTrader: (3)

SSinnovations, If I may recommend a great place online to get all your power/speaker/signal wiring, they sell good stuff at way less than local places, and good quality as well: www.knukonceptz.com

apathy

You've been testing and researching sound quality for 4 years, but don't know any facts? You don't know how HUs work? I find that rather odd.

What internal components are of poor build? Just curious as to what you think is affecting SQ.

I'm assuming you are testing the signal BEFORE the EQs in the HU shape the sound, right?

Edit:

I also find it funny that so many people tell me that the aftermarket HUs are obviously better quality, when they have never heard a system with a stock or low dollar HU through a quality EQ and nice speakers properly amped. Because as soon as they walk into best buy or circuit city, the employee is shoving the newest HU in their face and they don't give it a second thought. Interesting.

WhiteBird00

iTrader: (4)

What everybody seems to be missing here is that the factory HU doesn't have preamp out like an aftermarket unit. The Monsoon HU has a rather poor built-in amp that is made worse by the fact that the external amplifier is taking speaker level input and amplifying that (along with all the noise and distortion).

So, while you might be able to convince me that two comparable aftermarket HUs would have the same sound quality, there is no way the factory Monsoon will match the SQ of a good aftermarket setup. If you could get inside and connect to the unamplified signal then things might be different.

apathy

If you put an amp here:

CD -> DAC -> Amp -> Lineout -> speakers

How is that different from an amp here?:

CD -> DAC -> Lineout -> Amp -> speakers

Why is one amplifying a different amount of noise and distortion that you speak of?

If you are serious about sound quality, you will always have an amp after your HU. The distortion you hear is either 1. poor speakers, or 2. clipping from lack of power. This would mean you either need 1. better speakers, or 2. a better/bigger/get a amp. Or get an EQ to shape the signal.

I'm not saying you can buy an aftermarket HU, plug it in, and it will sound exactly the same as any other HU out there. What I am saying is if you correctly EQ and amp your stock HU, it will sound exactly the same running through the same speakers as any other HU. The DAC is converting the same information into the same exact signal.

WhiteBird00

iTrader: (4)

You're missing my point. The amp in the stock headunit has a poor signal to noise ratio and clips way sooner than expected. So the output at the back of the unit is already bad (because of the amp - not the DAC) before it even gets to the Monsoon amp (which isn't very good quality either).

Now, you can't seriously say that the quality of the amp would have nothing to do with resulting sound quality. Unlike DACs, not all amps are created equal. A better amp will give better SQ.

bill99hawk

This was the point I was getting at also, but somehow this thread went from SQ of a system to SQ of a DAC. The originally post was not asking about CD quality, but rather the overall quality. Starting with a good signal from the HU is very important for the overall system. Sorry but splicing the lines isn't a good idea if SQ is of high importance. All the amplifier is doing is, well amplifying that hacked signal.

apathy

What is the poor signal to noise ratio, I'm curious?

99 dollar Blaupunkt Receiver:

25 watts RMS/55 peak x 4 channels
CD frequency response 15-20,000 Hz
CD signal-to-noise ratio 98 dB


700 dollar Clarion Receiver:

18 watts RMS/53 peak x 4 channels
CD frequency response 5-20,000 Hz
CD signal-to-noise ratio 100 dB

550 dollar Alpine Receiver:

26 watts RMS/60 peak x 4 channels (CEA-2006 Compliant)
CD frequency response 5-20,000 Hz
CD signal-to-noise ratio 105 dB

Hell even this Jensen player has a greater than 100db SNR (http://www.cardomain.com/item/JENCD3010X).

WhiteBird00

iTrader: (4)

Sorry, I don't have the S/N ratio numbers (and couldn't find them in a quick search). However, the head unit starts clipping about half way up the volume control (which is not very loud) and only gets worse as volume is increased. This has been verified on a 'scope. That means that the HU is producing distortion at a moderate volume level before the signal is passed to the external amp. In other words, the HU is the culprit and not all head units are created equal (again, because of the amp not the DAC).

apathy

If it is clipping, it can be fixed with an aftermarket amp. Clipping has nothing to do with SQ, as clipping is not distortion in and of itself. It is a problem resulting from trying to overpower an amp. The output to the speakers sounds like distortion. It is also very easy to burn up the voice coil during clipping, so it's a good idea to turn it down when that starts happening. I've noticed a lot of people complaining about the speakers blowing...that could very well be why they are blowing. But I don't really know that, since I don't own the car.

If you amp your speakers, you don't have to crank the HU up to where the internal amp starts clipping. The HUs aren't created equal, I never said that. I said the SQ they produce is the same.

WhiteBird00

iTrader: (4)

OK, we're getting hung up on semantics here. I love a good debate as much as the next guy but the original premise was that all head units are equal in the quality of sound they produce. Granted, replacing the external Monsoon amp with a better amp would allow you to get the volume without forcing the HU into the clipping range (and clipping is heard as distortion which is very much what people perceive as a lack of sound quality). But, you'll have to agree that the limitations of the internal amp in the factory head unit make it less capable of producing quality sound over the same range as a good aftermarket unit. Therefore, all head units are not created equal. Q.E.D.

apathy

Me too. :p

Yep. Which is true. Again, I never said all HUs themselves are the same, and I never said you wouldn't be able to plug an Eclipse in out of the box and have it sound better more easily. All I said was that there is nothing in an eclipse, alpine, clarion, or X-brand head unit that would make it produce better quality sound than a stock head unit that a human could distinguish.

Yep, which is what I said. A stock HU running through a properly tuned EQ and a properly tuned and selected amp can/will produce the same output as any other HU out there. Also keep in mind I'm not saying they will produce the technical exact same output (though it is amazingly close), but there is no distinction between what the human ear can hear.

Of course.

Look, it's like this. Porting the MAF is a free mod, but takes effort. Buying an aftermarket MAF that is already ported is not free, but takes less effort.

The ported MAF and the aftermarket MAF are not the same. And there may be some differences between them. But can you get behind the wheel and tell me which car has a ported MAF and which car has an aftermarket MAF? Doubt it. And no matter how much anybody tells me that the quality of parts in the aftermarket MAF make a huge difference in power output, it just ain't so.

I already told this guy (who interestingly enough already solved his problem...you guys dug this one up from the crypt!) that it would require more time and effort in setting this system up. But it is absolutely true that an aftermarket HU is not a requirement for the best SQ. That was my sole point.

Cheers!