Modified 4L60E problem?
09-20-2016, 07:10 PM
#1
Modified 4L60E problem? Hi guys,
I'm new here and I come to you experienced folks with a question about the transmission fitted to my 2001 WS6.
A bit of background first:
My WS6's LS1 has been modified with a FAST 90mm intake, FAST fuel rails and injectors, a UMI 90mm throttle body, SLP lid, AIR and EGR delete, AC delete, Decat and true dual exhaust system with Magnaflow mufflers, comp cams dual valve springs, comp cams push rods and a comp cams XER-281 cam shaft, stainless steel long tubes (unsure of brand at present) and had forged rods and Pistons installed along with a "better" oil pump (again I'm unsure as to what brand and spec). It's been tuned and is currently running at 487 crank horsepower and 448 pounds of torque max.
Now on to the transmission:
It's a 4L60e which around 6 months ago was removed from the vehicle by the previous owner and had Alto red eagle clutch packs fitted, a Sonnax "beast?" Sunshell fitted and a Transgo HD2 reprogramming kit installed. The torque converter is a 3200 stall with TCC.
The issue I'm having is that when the transmission is shifted from park to drive, it seems to shift really hard and makes the car jump. You have to hold the brakes on when shifting into drive otherwise it launches forwards pretty hard. The previous owner told me that this started with the installation of the clutch kit and HD2 kit and that he was told it was normal behaviour for the transmission with these things installed. The box feels fine once driving and it shifts brilliantly through all the gears. Going into reverse is fine.
Would you think this is a problem or is this actually usual behaviour for the Hd2 kit?
I look forward to seeing what you guys have to say!
Thank you in advance.
James
I'm new here and I come to you experienced folks with a question about the transmission fitted to my 2001 WS6.
A bit of background first:
My WS6's LS1 has been modified with a FAST 90mm intake, FAST fuel rails and injectors, a UMI 90mm throttle body, SLP lid, AIR and EGR delete, AC delete, Decat and true dual exhaust system with Magnaflow mufflers, comp cams dual valve springs, comp cams push rods and a comp cams XER-281 cam shaft, stainless steel long tubes (unsure of brand at present) and had forged rods and Pistons installed along with a "better" oil pump (again I'm unsure as to what brand and spec). It's been tuned and is currently running at 487 crank horsepower and 448 pounds of torque max.
Now on to the transmission:
It's a 4L60e which around 6 months ago was removed from the vehicle by the previous owner and had Alto red eagle clutch packs fitted, a Sonnax "beast?" Sunshell fitted and a Transgo HD2 reprogramming kit installed. The torque converter is a 3200 stall with TCC.
The issue I'm having is that when the transmission is shifted from park to drive, it seems to shift really hard and makes the car jump. You have to hold the brakes on when shifting into drive otherwise it launches forwards pretty hard. The previous owner told me that this started with the installation of the clutch kit and HD2 kit and that he was told it was normal behaviour for the transmission with these things installed. The box feels fine once driving and it shifts brilliantly through all the gears. Going into reverse is fine.
Would you think this is a problem or is this actually usual behaviour for the Hd2 kit?
I look forward to seeing what you guys have to say!
Thank you in advance.
James
09-20-2016, 08:08 PM
#2
TECH Fanatic
I would check the Forward Accumulator Piston & Spring for correct orientation, Dome toward Valve Body, Spring, Then the Cover.
Forward Abuse Valve stuck open (Bypassing the Accumulator)
To much "minimum regulated Pressure" from the builder fiddling with the EPC screw (Bypassing the Accumulator)
Omitted Forward Clutch Wave Plate.
Enlarged Forward Feed hole, And or Omitted #12 Checkball.
Check with a scanner that the Throttle % is at ZERO % & returns to ZERO % every time!
This is not normal, And if a builder says it is.......He has no business building, Of coarse.......Using Alto Red's says something all by itself!
Forward Abuse Valve stuck open (Bypassing the Accumulator)
To much "minimum regulated Pressure" from the builder fiddling with the EPC screw (Bypassing the Accumulator)
Omitted Forward Clutch Wave Plate.
Enlarged Forward Feed hole, And or Omitted #12 Checkball.
Check with a scanner that the Throttle % is at ZERO % & returns to ZERO % every time!
This is not normal, And if a builder says it is.......He has no business building, Of coarse.......Using Alto Red's says something all by itself!
09-20-2016, 10:57 PM
#3
Thank you for the reply.
Unfortunately I won't be able to find out easily whether the wave plate was omitted during the rebuild as the previous owner has gone stone cold on me and appears to have blocked my number and won't reply to email. I am unsure as to who carried out the rebuild as well :-(
I assume the other items can be checked with the box still on the car? I'm not really very good with auto transmissions as I've never done much with them other than change fluid and filter. Give me an engine and I will play all day...
I have just done some reading about the EPC adjustment but without knowing what exactly has been done I can't comment on whether it was messed with at this stage. Sounds like my first job is to go and find a compatible scanner to have a look at the TPS reading before i start taking the pan off to delve into the innards further!
As for the red eagle stuff - is it really bad?
Seems such a shame it has this problem as otherwise it works perfectly. It's the most responsive transmission I've ever had in any car - the shifts are quick and tight, no slipping, and yet when driving in a leisurely manner it's quite refined as well!
Unfortunately I won't be able to find out easily whether the wave plate was omitted during the rebuild as the previous owner has gone stone cold on me and appears to have blocked my number and won't reply to email. I am unsure as to who carried out the rebuild as well :-(
I assume the other items can be checked with the box still on the car? I'm not really very good with auto transmissions as I've never done much with them other than change fluid and filter. Give me an engine and I will play all day...
I have just done some reading about the EPC adjustment but without knowing what exactly has been done I can't comment on whether it was messed with at this stage. Sounds like my first job is to go and find a compatible scanner to have a look at the TPS reading before i start taking the pan off to delve into the innards further!
As for the red eagle stuff - is it really bad?
Seems such a shame it has this problem as otherwise it works perfectly. It's the most responsive transmission I've ever had in any car - the shifts are quick and tight, no slipping, and yet when driving in a leisurely manner it's quite refined as well!
09-22-2016, 08:18 PM
#4
TECH Fanatic
The Forward Accumulator can be checked by pulling the pan & unbolting the cover.
The Abuse Valve & Checkball require dropping the Valve Body.
The EPC be checked with a Pressure Gauge (70-80 psi is the range) Shimming the Pressure Regulator Spring can also effect minimum regulated pressure.
IMHO Red Eagle's are a sorry friction material........ESPECIALLY in the 3-4 clutch. But even then, The 4L60E's I tear down with RE's in every clutch pack show signs of distress on plates that should still look new like The Forwards & Reverse Input with very little mileage on them.
I have torn down early ('82-'85) 700R4's with 300,000 on them & you can still read "Borg Warner Automotive" on the Forwards, Overruns, & Reverse Input.
That's why I run OEM Borg Warner Frictions......Because they work & work well even in high performance applications! Why spend $250 on a inferior product when Borg Warner's cost about $65 for a Friction Module & $50 for a "Turbulator" Steel Module?
The Abuse Valve & Checkball require dropping the Valve Body.
The EPC be checked with a Pressure Gauge (70-80 psi is the range) Shimming the Pressure Regulator Spring can also effect minimum regulated pressure.
IMHO Red Eagle's are a sorry friction material........ESPECIALLY in the 3-4 clutch. But even then, The 4L60E's I tear down with RE's in every clutch pack show signs of distress on plates that should still look new like The Forwards & Reverse Input with very little mileage on them.
I have torn down early ('82-'85) 700R4's with 300,000 on them & you can still read "Borg Warner Automotive" on the Forwards, Overruns, & Reverse Input.
That's why I run OEM Borg Warner Frictions......Because they work & work well even in high performance applications! Why spend $250 on a inferior product when Borg Warner's cost about $65 for a Friction Module & $50 for a "Turbulator" Steel Module?
09-23-2016, 06:47 AM
#5
Moderator
Clinebarger is giving excellent advice (as always). I'm sure he would start by connecting a pressure gauge to the trans. Search Amazon for (ATD-5550) and order one for $34.
I'm confident you will find the pressure is much higher than the 70-80 psi at idle which is typically with the HD2 kit.
If the pressure is very high, then either EPC is "screwed" (all meanings apply), there is a problem in the area of the boost valve (and pressure regulator valve) or the tune is forcing the high pressure.
If the pressure is normal, then there likely is a problem in the forward accumulator/valve body.
Without a trans pressure gauge you are shooting in the dark, so start there.
I'm confident you will find the pressure is much higher than the 70-80 psi at idle which is typically with the HD2 kit.
If the pressure is very high, then either EPC is "screwed" (all meanings apply), there is a problem in the area of the boost valve (and pressure regulator valve) or the tune is forcing the high pressure.
If the pressure is normal, then there likely is a problem in the forward accumulator/valve body.
Without a trans pressure gauge you are shooting in the dark, so start there.
10-02-2016, 05:57 AM
#7
Right I've had some investigation work done!
Took it to a local mechanic and he hooked up a gauge to the line pressure tap in on the drivers side of the transmission. At idle the pressure is 130psi. He has also had the car on scanner and I specifically asked him to check the tps readings. At idle with foot off the pedal the tps is showing 8%. If you slightly press the gas pedal the reading drops to 0% and then starts to rise all the way up to 100%. Whilst I was there we altered the position of the throttle stop screw until the tps was at 0% at idle and the transmission line pressure dropped to 85psi and it shifted lovely into drive! Can that really be the issue?
My mechanic said he's never seen a tps behave in that way where it starts higher than 0%, then drops back down with a slight increase in throttle opening before continuing to increase normally. New tps required?
Took it to a local mechanic and he hooked up a gauge to the line pressure tap in on the drivers side of the transmission. At idle the pressure is 130psi. He has also had the car on scanner and I specifically asked him to check the tps readings. At idle with foot off the pedal the tps is showing 8%. If you slightly press the gas pedal the reading drops to 0% and then starts to rise all the way up to 100%. Whilst I was there we altered the position of the throttle stop screw until the tps was at 0% at idle and the transmission line pressure dropped to 85psi and it shifted lovely into drive! Can that really be the issue?
My mechanic said he's never seen a tps behave in that way where it starts higher than 0%, then drops back down with a slight increase in throttle opening before continuing to increase normally. New tps required?
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10-04-2016, 02:31 PM
#9
OK so I've got a new tps on the bench here. Is there anything I need to do to set this up on the car or is it just bolt on, plug and play? If my PCM think the idle position is 8% will I need to get the PCM tuned again? The tuner who did the tune for the car is no longer doing dyno tuning he installs dynos instead!
10-10-2016, 06:28 AM
#10
OK so i have fitted the new tps and followed the procedure from another thread about setting it up. At idle I've got 0.53v and at WOT I've got 4.56v. The shift into drive is now SMOOTH! But it has created a new issue - my torque converter no longer goes into lockup?
Any ideas?
Any ideas?
10-10-2016, 07:31 AM
#11
Scrap that!
All sorted - I hadn't tightened the screws up enough so it slipped back under movement of the shaft. Back to correct voltages, tightened and now everything works as it should! What a massive difference! Who would have thought a simple potentiometer could affect the tranny in such a severe way!
Thank you guys for your help, it's been invaluable. Wish I was able to buy you both a pint of cold beer.
Regards
James
All sorted - I hadn't tightened the screws up enough so it slipped back under movement of the shaft. Back to correct voltages, tightened and now everything works as it should! What a massive difference! Who would have thought a simple potentiometer could affect the tranny in such a severe way!
Thank you guys for your help, it's been invaluable. Wish I was able to buy you both a pint of cold beer.
Regards
James
10-10-2016, 09:19 AM
#12
Moderator
Excellent news!
As you learned the TPS has a huge effect on the transmission's shifting characteristics.
Reminds me of the old 70's saying "Many carburetor problems are due to the distributor" - meaning that people sometimes look in the wrong place due to inter-connected systems.
As you learned the TPS has a huge effect on the transmission's shifting characteristics.
Reminds me of the old 70's saying "Many carburetor problems are due to the distributor" - meaning that people sometimes look in the wrong place due to inter-connected systems.