View Poll Results: Drive by Wire or Cable Pull throttle body
Drive by Wire
54
49.54%
Cable Pull
55
50.46%
Voters: 109. You may not vote on this poll
Drive by Wire or Throttle Cable
05-14-2010, 01:11 PM
#21
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The F16 statement is true...as far as it goes. At least one early F16 was lost because of uncommanded flight control movement. This has apparently been fixed, but I doubt GM is using as much redundancy as GD and later Lockheed does. Actually, the chances of a failure causing a runaway are probably much less than the failure just shutting the engine down, a fairly minor event. Even so, if I wanted absolutely the closest to a failure proof setup I could get, it would be cable.
I don't think you can assume a loss of dependability with DBW. The Toyota analogy is purely anecdotal. A cable is a mechanical device that can break and leave you stranded just like bad software can. An F-16 uses "drive by wire" for all the flight-control surfaces, and the demands on one of those are a bit more than actuating a throttle to drive home.
The primary reason OEMs went to the DBW throttle is traction control. If you have a mechanical connection to the motor, and someone goes WOT with the throttle pedal in a low-traction situation, things are bad. With traction control the PCM can intercept and interpret the throttle signal. If the drive wheels start slipping, it can back out of the throttle and keep you out of the ditch.
Now I'm not a GM PCM expert, but those out there who are, are all the DBW PCMs programmed for traction control? My guess is no, you have to have drive wheel spin sensors (might could use the ABS sensors) to provide input to this whole process.
The primary reason OEMs went to the DBW throttle is traction control. If you have a mechanical connection to the motor, and someone goes WOT with the throttle pedal in a low-traction situation, things are bad. With traction control the PCM can intercept and interpret the throttle signal. If the drive wheels start slipping, it can back out of the throttle and keep you out of the ditch.
Now I'm not a GM PCM expert, but those out there who are, are all the DBW PCMs programmed for traction control? My guess is no, you have to have drive wheel spin sensors (might could use the ABS sensors) to provide input to this whole process.
05-14-2010, 03:59 PM
#22
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There are a lot of reasons why the OEM's go with DBW. You guys have picked out a few of them (packaging, traction control, tuning, etc.). It is super easy to tune a DBW if you understand the software (the aftermarket often does not). You can tune it to make a 'peaky' engine feel like it has a flat torque curve, or you can have a variable response to make different driving situations easier for the driver to operate the throttle smoothly (ie. parking lot vs. tiping in to pass on the highway).
Here are a few other reasons:
variable displacement engines (when cylinders turn off the throttle opens further)
downshift assist (anyone driven the 370Z?)
variable cam phasing (you can 'throttle' the engine with the cams and IG, leave the throttle open to reduce pumping loss)
emissions tuning
automatic launch systems (GT-R, Ferrari, porsche, etc.)
In conclusion, if you can manipulate the software and fit the pedal, go with DBW. If you don't want to spend the extra $$ and do not have huge aspirations to tune for perfect drive-ability go with the cable.
PS. it would be amazing if someone would use a mega-squirt or some other open-source ECU to make launch control for these engines.
Here are a few other reasons:
variable displacement engines (when cylinders turn off the throttle opens further)
downshift assist (anyone driven the 370Z?)
variable cam phasing (you can 'throttle' the engine with the cams and IG, leave the throttle open to reduce pumping loss)
emissions tuning
automatic launch systems (GT-R, Ferrari, porsche, etc.)
In conclusion, if you can manipulate the software and fit the pedal, go with DBW. If you don't want to spend the extra $$ and do not have huge aspirations to tune for perfect drive-ability go with the cable.
PS. it would be amazing if someone would use a mega-squirt or some other open-source ECU to make launch control for these engines.
Never thought of using the electric throttle body for a launch control. How would that work? Just hold the pedal down, and release a button or something? As far as I know no aftermarket control unit can utilize DBW yet.
So tuning being the key, what tuning packages have the best capability to tune the DBW?
Anyone installed DBW then added a turbo? Obviously the factory can do it, but how hard would it be to adapt a DBW system from say, a truck to deal with boost? I know the 4200 trailblazer guys have a hard time tuning in a boosted application. The throttle system just shuts down sometimes under boost and the truck has to be restarted to be able to drive.
05-14-2010, 04:22 PM
#23
I've been toying with my copy of HP Tuners and it has lots of options under drive by wire. I don't know anything about EFI-Live but I would assume it is similar. There is at least one table in HPT (previously mentioned by Ackattack1) where there is a warning about "adjust this table at your own risk." Now I know why. 
As for how those options affect things like throttle response in the real world, I have no idea since my car isn't DBW. I do have to say I saw some things that LOOK like they could give you better throttle response.
As for how those options affect things like throttle response in the real world, I have no idea since my car isn't DBW. I do have to say I saw some things that LOOK like they could give you better throttle response.
05-14-2010, 07:35 PM
#24
Kinda off topic. but......... Doesn't EFIlive offer VVT cam phasing tables and HPtuners DOESN'T?
I wonder how many "tuners" say they can tune a VVT equipted eng but merely only play with the normal fuel and timing maps and don't touch the VVT tables. Wether they don't understand it; have enough experience with it or don't have the proper software(EFIlive)
Anybody have any input on this? OK. it was completely off topic. Sue me LOL
I wonder how many "tuners" say they can tune a VVT equipted eng but merely only play with the normal fuel and timing maps and don't touch the VVT tables. Wether they don't understand it; have enough experience with it or don't have the proper software(EFIlive)
Anybody have any input on this? OK. it was completely off topic. Sue me LOL
05-15-2010, 02:57 PM
#29
There are a lot of reasons why the OEM's go with DBW. You guys have picked out a few of them (packaging, traction control, tuning, etc.). It is super easy to tune a DBW if you understand the software (the aftermarket often does not). You can tune it to make a 'peaky' engine feel like it has a flat torque curve, or you can have a variable response to make different driving situations easier for the driver to operate the throttle smoothly (ie. parking lot vs. tiping in to pass on the highway).
Here are a few other reasons:
variable displacement engines (when cylinders turn off the throttle opens further)
downshift assist (anyone driven the 370Z?)
variable cam phasing (you can 'throttle' the engine with the cams and IG, leave the throttle open to reduce pumping loss)
emissions tuning
automatic launch systems (GT-R, Ferrari, porsche, etc.)
In conclusion, if you can manipulate the software and fit the pedal, go with DBW. If you don't want to spend the extra $$ and do not have huge aspirations to tune for perfect drive-ability go with the cable.
PS. it would be amazing if someone would use a mega-squirt or some other open-source ECU to make launch control for these engines.
Here are a few other reasons:
variable displacement engines (when cylinders turn off the throttle opens further)
downshift assist (anyone driven the 370Z?)
variable cam phasing (you can 'throttle' the engine with the cams and IG, leave the throttle open to reduce pumping loss)
emissions tuning
automatic launch systems (GT-R, Ferrari, porsche, etc.)
In conclusion, if you can manipulate the software and fit the pedal, go with DBW. If you don't want to spend the extra $$ and do not have huge aspirations to tune for perfect drive-ability go with the cable.
PS. it would be amazing if someone would use a mega-squirt or some other open-source ECU to make launch control for these engines.
05-15-2010, 09:50 PM
#32
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I like DBW for simplicity. Less wires, no IAC, easy to control in software. Thats not to say that I don't run DBC on my car, but I think DBW is a nicer all around setup. If I had to pay a lot more for DBW though, I'd choose DBC. Kinda nice with cruise control and all that stuff
05-15-2010, 10:07 PM
#33
If you have good tuning software you will find that wou may have up to 550 ETC tuning parameters. You can make the ETC work very well with 550 parameters.
I drive newer cars every day and the way that the ETC works now is great
Ask HPT to add all 550 parameters
05-15-2010, 11:58 PM
#35
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If they don't have it, where can I get it? What tuning software is the best for tuning DBW? Ya'll have me almost convinced...
05-18-2010, 10:55 AM
#37
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There are a lot of reasons why the OEM's go with DBW. You guys have picked out a few of them (packaging, traction control, tuning, etc.). It is super easy to tune a DBW if you understand the software (the aftermarket often does not). You can tune it to make a 'peaky' engine feel like it has a flat torque curve, or you can have a variable response to make different driving situations easier for the driver to operate the throttle smoothly (ie. parking lot vs. tiping in to pass on the highway).
In a street car I would want a DBW.
05-18-2010, 11:08 AM
#39
Sorry to hear that
This is a typical example of HPT This just happens to be a V6 calibration, but the LS1 stuff is similar.
2000 Park Ave L67 12201866.bin Tunercat/JET Total Parameters: 597 vs HPT Parameters: 154
How can you tune a car with HPT?
I don't think so. If you have all 550 parameter it's not an issue
This is a typical example of HPT This just happens to be a V6 calibration, but the LS1 stuff is similar.
2000 Park Ave L67 12201866.bin Tunercat/JET Total Parameters: 597 vs HPT Parameters: 154
How can you tune a car with HPT?
I don't think so. If you have all 550 parameter it's not an issue
05-18-2010, 11:18 AM
#40
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Adding cruise to a DBW involves a switch and 4 wire hookup from the TAC module.
Not the same ease of install.