critter

iTrader: (9)

I must be getting old ... I remember a price of $220 for 30# SVO injectors but now it looks like all the supporting vendors want $300 or so.

Does someone sell them for $220? Which is the right injector (Summit has 30# 5.0 Ford injectors for $220, but also 30# "racing" injectors for $300)?

GTBMad

Tried Racetronix

critter

iTrader: (9)

They don't seem to have 30# injectors.

Anyone else???

mike72678

$229 - www.neweraperformanceparts.com

GTBMad

MTI has them for 259

or this http://www.autoshopracingengines.com/injector.htm

critter

iTrader: (9)

Thanks! This looks good! Those appear to have the red tops I've seen mentioned.

Thanks for this too! That is the same PN that Summit has, which I haven't been able to confirm until now.

Wonder why the sponsors (other than MTI) ask 299 for them??

Nasty N8

iTrader: (33)

The more expensive ones are flow matched.

Nate

critter

iTrader: (9)

Thanks. That makes sense. Next question - is flow matching worth the extra $80?

BergerMan

Just remember, "Flow Matched" doesn't mean that all 8 flow at 30#. It means that all 8 flow the same, whether its 28,29 or 30#. Flow matching is a bunch of BS in my opinion. Just another way of squeezing more $$$ out of you. Trust me, good quality injectors are matched from the factory and are plenty good enough for our use.

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

Factory injectors have an acceptable tolerance of +/-5%. That is a 10% spread. We have also come by the odd injector that is dead, down by as much as 40% or overflows by 20%.

What do you suppose will happen to a motor that has a mixed batch or those cylinders that might end up with the lean injectors?

Flow-matched injectors are generally within +/-1% depending on what the vendor is offering.

Most vendors do not offer small injectors (30#) in flow-matched sets as the HP level they support does not justify it.

ScottyG

I got a set of 30# SVO's for $215.95 (+ $10 shipping) from Livernois Motorsports -- www.livernoismotorsports.com

z28hokie

Jegs has a set of 32lb Accel Injectors for $199...it's a pricing error- but if you order over the website- that is what they charge you. (where I got mine)

BergerMan

Thats exactly what I was saying. 30# injectors do not justify being flow matched.

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

I don't see anything above that would indicate that you were referring to 30# / smaller injectors alone. Sounds more like a generalized comment dismissing the merits of flow-matching all together.




FYI there are certain applications where flow-matching small sized injectors would be advisable but that is another story for another thread.

ChrisB

The price difference is pretty small really, and I would rather spend a few extra bucks and get the flow matched units. It's peace of mind and the possibility of preventing a PITA to track down problem.

samz28

if your really hard up you can pay MSRP for ford motorsport at www.steeda.com, but who pays retail??

critter

iTrader: (9)

I guess $80 doesn't buy a lot But I am confused now. Nate says the $299 one would be flow matched, but Racetronix says 30# injectors are seldom matched. I guess I need to call some vendors and see what they have to say

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

The reasoning is mainly because of economics.

To come up with a tightly matched set of injectors we have to take a couple hundred pieces, flow them and group them.

The larger the number of injectors in a matched set the fewer sets their will be.

It is much easier to find four injectors within 1% vs. eight in a lot of 200.

To have a couple hundred injectors sitting on the shelf which do not sell that well does not make good business sense? What about the ones that do not match up?

The type of customer that would normally purchase 30# injectors is no where as likely to pay extra for a flow-matched set vs. someone looking to buy a set of 50# injectors.

The 24#, 30#, 36# and 42# injector market is very competitive mostly because of Ford / Bosch Motorsport injectors being sold at very low margins.

Price is the #1 basis on which most people make their purchase when it comes to injectors as the merits of flow-matching is not widely known.

Unfortunately most HP parts retailers are not up to speed when it comes to fuel injection and will easily dismiss flow-matching either because they lack experience / knowledge, can’t offer the product or assume price is all that matters to make the sale.

Some vendors even go so far as to lie and tell customers that they are flow-matched from the factory. Flowed yes, flow-matched no! For Siemens and Delphi as long as they fall within +/-5% of their spec. out the door they go. This is a 10% spread!!!

The merits of having a flow-matched set of injectors needs no more proving than the earth is round. Yes perhaps some still think it is flat but it is doubtful they would be reading this thread.

We can take any layman and sit him down with a handful of randomly selected factory-fresh injectors from our vast inventory and insert them into our flow bench to instantly see the flow variance.

A Google search will come up with all types of engineering documents dealing with the ‘injector balancing problem’.

Documents are available which address the problems created by imbalanced injectors via ECM/PCM software algorithms.

Injectors have a wide variation in flow, can reap havoc on a motor and can deny a tuner the capacity to extract the entire amount of mechanically available HP.

All it takes is one injector in the set to be down by a couple percentage points for detonation to start in that one lean cylinder.

Once this happens the tuner will have to back off all eight cylinders for the sake of one as he does not have the control and/or the data to adjust each cylinder individually.

LS1 PCM’s have come a long way and can detect misfire by cylinder and make adjustments to reduce it but always at the cost of HP.

No responsible tuner would tune so close to the edge that knock (detonation) would occur every time the ‘pedal was put to the metal’.

Typically on a motor using 30# injectors there will not be enough cylinder pressure to cause immediate damage if knock occurs.

For motors using larger injectors (more HP made per cylinder) cylinder pressures are typically much higher and if knock is allowed to progress engine failure can occur in very short order.

This is why Turbo Buick owners and most FI import owners will buy flow-matched injectors much more often than Corvette, Camaro, Mustang etc. owners.

Hopefully more Speed Shops that cater to the domestic market will get with the program and start to educate their customers in this area.

There have been some great articles on flow-matching in HP magazines as of late which are worth reading.

Accel and Holley have seen the future and now offer flow-matched injectors as part of their product line although their testing is no where as involved as smaller more specialized distributors. Remember, most MSD and Holley injectors are ball/seat Delphi ‘Multec 1’ models.

samz28

yeah i took 4 ford lightning used injectors and put them on the cleaner/bench and they were identical. So i paid the dude $100 for them (wanted to make sure they weren't bunk 42#'ers) for my vw.

Each car has a leaniency, rather a cylinder in a 4 banger, v6,etc,that runs leaner than the rest,, why? Intake manifold deficiency and the fact you are feeding it from one end.

So what does this mean? The cylinder(s) that get more fuel need to be comp'd by hardware, or better yet by placing the injectors that flow a wee bit more on their end if that is not an easily programmable option. It is possible for one cylinder to run lean with NO KR.

How do you detect this? One way is to put an EGT probe on every exhaust runner. Only racers can afford to do this and log the K-type thermocouple.


So, find a friend who works at a shop, and when you get your injectors, put them on the flow bench.

It's quite simple. Set pressure to 58 or whatever you guys run, plug in all the injectors into the VIALS, make sure the machine has gas in it, or whatever you want to run through them alcohol,etc, and set the machine to like 1 minutes.

After the minute of pulsing at whatever RPM (it can cycle up/down/whatever) you will read the miniscus of each VIAL and see which haven't filled as much as the other.

FORD green tops, were 100% Equal, at least to my eyesite, being used and cheap.

SO you can believe the hype, and buy into it, or test it and see it yourself. If you don't have a flowbench you have no idea if they really did shiz for you, or if they threw 8 injectors in a box?

How well do you trust the supplier? I wouldn't trust a built motor on their word, unless it was RC engineering...

certainly not jegs lol. not summitracing..

Moral of story: Find a friend with fuel injector cleaner/flow bench, it pays for itself (free)

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

Not everybody is so lucky as to have a friend who has access to an injector flowbench.

Most commercially available injector test / cleaning stations meant for the service industry have a high degree of inaccuracy. They are not designed for accurate readings required for flow-matching but rather for relative / comparative readings. It is best to get a flow-matched set up front. What is one to do if he/she finds out after their purchase that the injectors are poorly matched? It is not as if you can modify their flow.



As stated in one of our previous posts.... we sell offset injectors for the import market as there is a good amount of data on each engine type and their cylinder-to-cylinder variations. If someone were to come up with similar data on a LS1 motor we could offer injectors to help balance out any inherently rich / lean cylinders.