Firebrian

An interesting question. And while we can hypothesize, the only way to answer it is to find identically conditioned cars, priced to current market, and ask knowledgeable car enthusiasts which one would they would prefer buying, the WS6/TA or SS/Z28...and preferably potential buyers who are currently looking to add a car. Of course the price differential will play an important role.

I wouldn't get too excited about what unknowledgeable people say about our cars as they don't determine market supply vs. demand. In doing car shows for 20 years with my '68/69 Roadrunner's and GTX's I heard many strange and unusual things from those who just didn't know. One of the most common responses was "I had a '69 Charger just like yours." (I never owned a '68-'70 Charger). Show people today identically conditioned 2002 Firehawk and WS6 and I suspect the WS6 would get the most oohs and aahs, and picked as the most valuable and desirable car. It doesn't mean they're right.

One could say that because the Camaro's are more plentiful (ie have more owners), they have an overall higher level of interest, regardless of how it is achieved. The good thing is that there are just the right number of people out there for the seats that are available in the F Bodies. I was looking specifically for a LS-1 Firebird in 2011 and ended up with a Camaro SS....mainly because I got a much lower mileage car for the same money.

AnotherWs6

iTrader: (17)

I'm not too excited about anything, just noting - as did others - that the WS6 cars seem to be typically deemed the better looking car. And of course everyone's tastes are different.

NC01TA

Brian, you have that right. You should hear the comments on my Matador X at shows. No one means any harm but I've heard the full gamut from, "It was made by Dodge" to "I think it's a Gremlin" (at least they had the American Motors part right) to "That's the Car on Starsky and Hutch" (really?? a Ford Torino??). Hey, at least they notice.

Firebrian

WS6 better looking car? I don't know if that's true though I suspect it probably is. They are more attractive to me. Then again I love the looks of 1970 Superbirds and 1969 Charger Daytonas, something that most people can't understand. Better looking means a lot of different things to different people. When the F bodies got restyled in 1993 the Pontiacs were often criticized for that "boy racer" look. And with the 1998 WS6 I suspect that notion only increased. It's possibly one of the reasons that they sold less of them vs. Camaro's. Since the 1950's there has never been a shortage of Chevy buyers. The 4th gen 2001/2002 Firehawk has been tabbed by a number of collector magazines as being a car with future collectible upside. The "better looking" WS6 or other F bodies don't get mentioned near as often, if at all. I think the GMMG WS6's are the best looking cars. But then you have to have the extra $5K to $15K to buy one of those over a regular WS6. It's also not on the radar of 99% of potential WS6/Firebird buyers.

It's also interesting that per the "wanted to buy" section on this website that for 4th gens the WS6 pulls the most weight by far. I looked back 2 months and 41% of the 27 potential buyers want the WS6. A number of them specified only a 2002 SOM WS6. I have to wonder if they're fully ready to go through the shipping/driving costs to bring one of those back from half way across the country? You can't snap your fingers and have one show up on your doorstep w/o paying the piper. While we'd all love to buy our next door neighbor's SOM WS6 for KBB book, it's not gonna happen for 99% of us. Most of us will end buying the best value within a reasonable driving radius from where we live. Long distance transactions are much more difficult....and costly.

Out of those 27 buyers, 30% were willing to go either Camaro/Firebird. 55% of them would go only with WS6/TA/Formula. Not surprisingly, only 15% specifically stated they wanted some form of Camaro. You have to wonder why the Camaro's aren't priced a lot less. I guess it's that 30% of swing voters that only care about an LS1 which keep the prices sort of balanced. I've owned 2 LT-1 Trans Ams, and then 2 LS-1 Camaro's....all 4 dictated by the car's condition/value/price and the proximity to me. The tie breaker is next.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

An excellent post above by Firebrian, I think it hit several points spot-on.

The issue about "better looking", this can be a fickle thing. Sometimes what is considered to be desirable, "edgy" or trendy styling in one era becomes dated and/or less desirable in another. Sometimes not. Since the '70s, the Pontiac side of the F-platform has made itself known by outlandish styling as compared to its cousin Camaro. Of course, even Camaro had some pretty wild body stripe kits by the late '70s/early '80s, though still not quite as over the top as Trans Am. Looking at the most collectible/valuable F-bodies, there are only a couple select models of Pontiac ('73-'74 SD cars, and '69 Trans Ams come to mind) that come anywhere close to (though not in excessive of) the value of the most collectible early Camaros (original Z28s, BBC-SS cars, and the really special ZL1/COPO type deals, etc.) But these are extreme examples, most 1st or 2nd gens weren't SD-455 cars or 427ci aluminum BBCs. Of the more average examples, Camaro seems to generally remain more valuable and desirable right up to the point where Pontiac started to really make their F-body stand out with [comparably] wild graphics and/or styling, starting in the mid-'70s.

Coming back to 4th gens, I've seen many WS6 Trans Am buyers state that they would pick this car even over comparable age/condition Corvettes simply because they prefer the styling. There seems to be a huge draw towards this "ram air" hood, big spoiler and generally outlandish styling. I don't know if this trend will continue to endure over the coming decades or not. Sometimes collectible or popular items stop being so as their primary market dies, moves on or ages; the next group to take over doesn't always appreciate the same characteristics. Also, sometimes the lack of value of a certain item causes it to be used up and discarded to the point of it becoming more rare even if it was originally more common. In the world of 4th gens, people pay big money for nice WS6 cars which keeps the school boys away, and so there are still plenty of nice WS6 cars to go around. Camaros, on the other hand, are often used up/cut up/discarded and valued low enough for anyone to buy. One day, it will be harder to find nice SS 4th gens than it will be to find nice WS6 Trans Ams.....and something like a really nice Z28 or Formula will be almost extinct. This won't matter if trends and current popular opinion stay the same within the current and future market groups for these cars, but should there be a shift then value would quickly increase for those models which have been mostly depleted by daily driving abuse.

It's all just speculation for the sake of conversation though. As I mentioned earlier, I don't personally concern myself with the value of any car I own, until/unless I've decided to sell it, nor do I ever consider buying cars as an investment.

I do find it interesting though that I seem to always land on the opposite end of popular opinion when it comes to the modern cars, but exactly in line with popular opinion when it comes to the classics/antiques. If I were faced with the scenario mentioned above, an LS1 Camaro SS or an LS1 WS6 T/A, both of the same price/condition/options, I would be one of those 2 of 10 who would pick the Camaro as better looking and as my preference (though 15 years ago I would've swung the other way). Having said that, if I were faced with the same scenario, except the cars were a '69 Camaro or a '69 Firebird, I would be within the 8 of 10 who would pick the Camaro.

AnotherWs6

iTrader: (17)

That is an interesting point. But since we are really talking about SS's and WS6's, (I mean those are the most desired) do you think that that is really the case? I dont see a whole hell of a lot of any F-bodys in general, but it just seems like the nicer and originally more expensive cars would last longer in good shape in general.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Perhaps I should have explained my thought process better....

It's not that the SSs are so cheap, comparatively, but that as their value has been (and continues to be) lower than comparable WS6 cars, starting from day one, it makes them available to more buyers. In turn, this makes them more likely to be in the hands of people who intend to use them as daily drivers, thus diminishing their value further. The cheaper they get, the more they will get used up/worn out, and the more used up/worn out a car becomes, the cheaper it gets, etc. This is happening with some WS6 cars as well, but I think the pace of this vicious circle is more rapid and common for SSs.

The second part to this is the clone factor. If there is suddenly a demand for really nice 4th gen SS cars, which may have since become more scarce than the premium trim level Pontiac examples, then clones start to become quite valuable as well. This can be seen with earlier F-bodies; 1st gen Camaros that came with 307-2bbl, or even 250ci I6 engines, that happen to be in really nice shape were rapidly turned into clones during the booming '90s muscle car market. An original sheet metal, well restored clone SS/Z28 1st gen Camaro can sometimes be worth more than an original V8 400ci Firebird of similar condition....even when the buyer is well aware of the fact that the SS/Z28 is a clone.

This would be even more likely to happen with 4th gens, should they ever become highly sought after, as there is nothing mechanically special about the SS (or WS6) cars; it's almost entirely a cosmetic package. With that in mind, there would also be a demand for base V8 models, especially ones that aren't in need of major restoration, to be quickly and easily cloned with a hood and spoiler and wheels. The finished product could be worth as much or more than a comparable condition original top trim level Pontiac (but again this would require a shift from the current popular opinion - which may never happen.) With the old muscle cars, a decent clone will at least require the better drivetrain to be added as well, so you'd have to swap transmissions/axles/engines/etc. Not so with the 4th gens, as a base V8 is every bit as good as any WS6/SS under the skin, thus base V8 4th gen Camaros in freakishly good condition would benefit greatly from any excessive demand for SS cars when originals become scarce.

Again, this is all just speculation and war games. Like they say in the stock market, past performance is no guaranty of future returns....but it does make for some interesting conversation.

AnotherWs6

iTrader: (17)

Another update.....

Your Kelley Blue Book® Values have changed
for the week of Oct 02, 2015 to Oct 08, 2015
Up 2% Decrease in Value
since Sep 19, 2015 2002 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am Coupe 2D
Based on:
Mileage: 32600 Update
ZIP Code: 10547 Update

Firebrian

I'd email them following this 2% update why they show no price difference between automatic/manual transmission. That's typically a 8-12% difference, a lot more than their updates. They also list a 75th anniversary 2001 Pontiac Trans Am, whatever that is. They don't even list a 30th anniversary Trans Am (WS6) for 1999. Firehawks don't exist in KBB. Guess that's why there are other price guides too.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I remember a 75th Pontiac anniversary package being offered on the Grand Am GTs back then, my wife was interested in one when they were new. I don't recall there being such a package for the Trans Am, but perhaps I'm mistaken.