ehksohset

iTrader: (1)

The other day I was driving to class with my windows down and when I parked, I rolled my windows up. As I was rolling the windows up, I heard a clicking sound. Once the window was up, I tried rolling it down again, but heard a loud buzzing coming from the door and now the window won't budge. It almost sounds like the window motor was working, but the regulator is binding.

So I'm expecting having to replace the regulator, and have been reading pretty much every window motor/regulator thread I can find. I've done this once on my old 94 Impala, and know how not fun it is. I do have a few questions about the process in the F-body:

1) I read conflicting things about whether to use the steel mandrel/aluminum jacket rivets vs. nuts and bolts and the stress on the fiber glass door panel. Is this selection really that critical? I want to do it right the first time.

2) I'm thinking if I tear apart the door, I might as well replace the motor+regulator, as I understand the regulator warps over time. Are there any certain brands better than others, or would a Dorman, etc. from the local parts store suffice?

3) I know replacement windows motors have attaching hardware included (nuts and bolts), but do replacement regulators? If I went the pop rivet route, does GM still sell the proper ones (a lot of the posts I read were from 2006-2010)?

4) Any other caveats I might need to know to do the job that haven't been covered in the several write ups on the window motor/regulator replacement in those old posts?

Thanks in advance.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Absolutely. If you don't use the correct rivets, this will happen: https://ls1tech.com/forums/general-m...-included.html

Before you dive in, I'd highly suggest taking off the door panel and seeing what you have. (You can use an inspection mirror.) Often the problem you describe comes up when someone replaces a motor and the motor to regulator attaching screws come loose. If the regulator isn't chewed up and if the previous owner used the shbox method for replacement, you may just need to tighten and thread lock the bolts to get back to goodness. If you can post a pic of your regulator rivets and what's behind the door panel, we can help you diagnose what's there.

No, the rivets are separate and usually come in a 5-pack from GM. Any dealer can look up the part number. I believe the third and fourth gen cars may have used the same part, but am not sure.

If you decide to take off the regulator and rivet a new one on, the hardest part is getting a hold of the proper size riveter. A normal Home Depot pop riveter won't handle these door rivets.

Coza427

I have a 98 firebird and it had been doing the same exact thing! So i bought the whole motor and regulator. All you need is 1/4 inch rivits and a rivit tool. I had neither one so i used 1/4 in screws with a lock washer. It took about a good two hours to do. Also i would use a pice of wood to hold the window up that way it doesnt smash down when you get the regulator loose.

Good luck!

Coza427

Ps its way easier to to buy the whole thing at once..

Coza427

Ps its way easier to to buy the whole thing at once..

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Not if you use the shbox method instead. In addition to not needing to fiddle with the glass, it also puts less wear and tear on the composite door panel. (Because you don't have to drill out the regulator rivets.)

I removed/replaced my regulators 4 times before moving to the shbox method and drilling out the rivets really tore up the holes.

ehksohset

iTrader: (1)

Thank you guys for the great information. It sounds like the smartest route to take will be to tear the door apart and see what's going on before making purchases. I will tackle this after next week (finals week!) and see what I come up with.. and post pics if I have any further questions.

Jumpsoffrock

iTrader: (1)

Wow they really wanted to make it hard to replace the regulators, didn't they?

DriveitlikeIstoleit

I know this is an old *** thread, but to not be the one millionth thread asking about window problems, I'm hoping I can get some help here.

Driver window does not budge. I get a noticeable buzzing sound from the door area (not under the dash as many bring up in other threads), my guess is it's coming straight from the motor. So question 1: If that's the case, am I safe to assume that my motor is good?

My other assumption/next question: is that a regulator is purely mechanical and it shouldn't fail unless it's binding or has snapped someplace

Assume all of the above is correct, take a look at my pictures. I did the best I can in assuming these rivets are what holds in the regulator and may very well be the culprit of my problem.

Picture one shows the rivets I think are holding in the regulator and are numbered for ease of identification. If other rivets/bolts are potential game changers here, point them out to me somehow:

I've worked with rivets for many years on aircraft, so I know how a sloppy hole can affect things. Rivet one is a mess. It's not seated properly and the panel is cracked. And there's an "extra" hole next to it... that definitely doesn't help when stress is put on the rivet itself. Rivet two is just as scary, unless the hole is supposed to be that elongated (which I doubt).

So, loud buzzing from the door= motor good? Regulator likely not the problem itself but the gorilla work done with the rivets holding it on are? Would this be causing a misalignment issue with the teeth? HOW CAN I FIX THIS??

Sorry, I know I can get long winded, but it helps to diagnose problems and hopefully gives someone a solution in the future.

Can anyone confirm or refute me here? This has been broken for at least a year now and with the T-tops, I'd like to enjoy the free-flowing air on my drive! Thanks to all for your feedback!

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

It could be several things, but it looks like you are going to need to do the plate fix (see post #2) and take it all apart, anyway.

It looks like the rivets you have there are not the correct type and not the originals.


Take out the door speaker and then you can use a mirror to check out the regulator to motor attachment. The former "mechanic" may have used bolts to attach the two. If so, you may just need to tighten them or use proper rivets for that joining.

DriveitlikeIstoleit

After taking a closer look with my mirror, rivet one isn't holding anything. That hole on the regulator isn't being secured down. Instead of the plate fix, does a bolt and nut combination suffice from your experience? What length bolt is normally used? I'll assume a 1/4 inch diameter since that's the diameter of the rivet. Aluminum or steel? Since you can't get the aluminum/steel combination that you can with a pop rivet, what's the lesser of two evils for a bolt/nut combo (assuming the nut/bolt method is viable).

But this was done by a dealership, there's no way they would use the wrong materials!


Took out the speaker and it's tough to tell if the teeth are lining up... checked real quick in the parking lot at work. The rivets were replaced with screws (not bolts) star washers and nuts. When I try to tighten the nut, two of them spin so the star washers not working as advertised. But they don't have any wiggle to them so I like to believe they're not the problem.

Hopefully getting the rear upper hole (rivet one location) secured down will take care of this? I'm assuming they removed the whole assembly, replaced the motor using the bolts (screws) and nuts, then put the whole unit back in poorly with the pop rivets. So not only did the previous owner get *** raped for labor, the dealership did a shitty job at that. And they're supposed to be the premier service...

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

The stock rivet perfectly deforms to the shape of the hole. A bolt does not and will just tear up the panel worse. If you can't use a rivet, then you'll need to do the plate fix or a modified fix so the bolt bears on something solid.

You might be in good enough shape to get by with using epoxy (find the proper one for use on SMC) to secure a 1/4 washer to the composite and give you metal for the bolt to bear on. I would use a 1/4" bolt/washer combo if you go that way.


That would really surprise me. Maybe it is correct (I'm wrong) and the mandrel came out? Is the rivet magnetic? If so, it isn't the right part. If it isn't the correct part, you'd definitely have a beef with the dealer since the GM Service Manual warns the installer to use the correct rivet.


The gear could also be torn up from a skip in the gear or from future use. I'd suggest drilling holes for the shbox motor replacement method. That should help you get a good bite on the bolts that secure the motor to the regulator.

Regardless of what you do, I think drilling the holes for the shbox replacement is a good idea. Replacing the motor by removing the regulator will just do more damage to the door. Even if you can save this motor, I see another one in your future...



That's why I don't go to the dealer - ever, (after the warranty is up) without a very good reason.

My guess is that they mangled the door drilling out the original rivets and "improvised" to get the car back together. Before you get too wound up on the dealer - you might check out the rivets more. They should be non-magnetic and still have a steel pin in the middle, for strength.

DriveitlikeIstoleit

Considering the cracks and way the current rivet is sitting, I'm going to assume the hole is too sloppy to get a rivet to sit tightly which goes to your next point...


I should have mentioned I planned on the washer for security... without it, the panel would certainly be a cracked/deformed mess more than it already is. Epoxying it in place isn't something I considered, but is something I'll do now... plus, it should help strengthen where it's cracked.

Rivet is aluminum and the mandrel is steel, I found the stems at the bottom of the door. At this point, it is what it is. They did a crappy job. I wouldn't even go to the dealer, not because it's an hour and a half away, but because it was done for the previous owner and we all know dealers will give any excuse to pass blame and get out of doing rework.


As much as I cringe at putting extra holes into the door, many people do it without any problems, so I'll end up breaking down and do it. And yes, from what I read on these forums, these motors are changed almost as frequently as the oil.



Agreed, I avoid any shop at all costs. If I can do it, I will. Sadly, you can't trust anybody these days to do a good job. As far as the one that's not holding anything, my assumption is that they either used a rivet that was too short, or they didn't have the regulator flat against the door when they pulled the rivet and missed it. It's possible that when they drilled out the rivet, they went through everything, regulator included, and widened the hole to the point the rivet didn't catch it... they would have to be really inexperienced to do that though since the regulator is thick material.

First step is to drill out this bad rivet and see what I'm working with. I'm hoping that the hole on the door lines up with the hole on the regulator. If not, I can see that misalignment being the problem. I just can't fathom the bolts being tightened on the motor helping this problem... I can't imagine there being such a close tolerance. Then again, many have tightened them and it worked, so I certainly can't say it's not a plausible solution.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to take baby steps towards fixing this to avoid more work than needed. I'll update along the way hopefully with the solution and not more questions so others can use this to diagnose their problem.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

More importantly, the epoxied washer will transfer the bearing force along the outside plane of the door, where it is strong - instead of around the hole, where it will crush.


That would be the correct part, then. I had a few rivets on my last batch loose the mandrels. The first batch I used in the early 2000's didn't do that and all kept the mandrel captive.

It sounds like whoever did the job just got lazy and put the rivet in the wrong hole without making sure it was going through anything on the back side. (I'm not sure why the did it - but some of the holes are not needed - but if the regulator is lined up correctly, all four holes in the regulator will be lined up in their companions in the door skin.)