402 Solid Roller w/my heads or 416 Solid Roller w/aftermarket heads?
06-30-2015, 09:26 PM
#1
402 Solid Roller w/my heads or 416 Solid Roller w/aftermarket heads? So, I've decided to start planning my next motor build. Right now, the 346 is fine, but I want a little more drivability and more power everywhere. But I want to stay NA. I like the simpleness of that, but I recognize the drivability trade-offs it entails. With that said, here comes a long and thought-provoking post... (would you expect any less of me?)
I'm liking the Cam Motion Low-Lash Solid Rollers. And I've been thinking of doing either of the follows:
-402 built with LS7 crank/rods and JE lightweight pistons in the LS2 block
-Reuse my TEA Stage 2 LS6 Heads (target 12.1:1 CR)
-Upgrade my springs to PAC 1208X
-Run a Cam Motion 250/255 .650/.633 114+2 LLR Cam
-Move to T&D Shaft Mount Rockers
-Use Morel UltraPro Lifters
Reuse my port-matched FAST 102, L9H 42lbs Flex Fuel injectors, Kooks 1-7/8" Headers and 3" True Duals, and my FTP 104 lid, Circle D 2E 4000 stall (NA Converter), FLT Level 6 4L60E Auto Trans, and Moser 12-bolt w/3.73s
I think I could probably hit 130 in the quarter given the approx 3700 race weight and 26" drag radials. Maybe a tad more? To me, this feels like a pretty good combo. The 226cc port on the heads, ~320cfm flow, and 2.04" valves would make for a very responsive 402. The LLR may be a tad large, but it would probably drive better than my 234/242 111 in the 346. So, a win. Plus it's more cost effective to reuse what I can. I could always send to TEA and have them install a 2.055" intake valve and open the chamber up as well.
My other option is to go with a 416...
-416 built again using the LS7 crank/rods and JE pistons in the LS3 block
-MMS 235 or Frankenstein TFS 237s setup for Solid Roller (aim for maybe 11.8:1)
-Cam Motion LLR 250/255 .650/.633 114+2 (might go bigger, but this profile looks good here too given the better heads need less cam)
-Fully port the FAST 102
-Maybe move to a 2" header? (additional cost for perhaps small returns)
-Same supporting goodies
Goal would be enough of a power increase with the 416 and aftermarket heads to justify the additional cost of the LS3 block and the aftermarket heads. So I'm looking for maybe 133 in the quarter, which justifiably, is not a big jump if I could hit 130 reusing a lot of stuff. So, I'm not really interested in dyno numbers. And adding 10-20HP here or there with swapping headers, etc., won't buy me anything very noticeable at this power level.
I wouldn't be opposed to restalling my converter up to a 4400 or so especially if I'm carrying power to 7500. But the issue is the FAST 102 is still going to limit me. And I don't want to hack up the cowl on the car as I still drive it a lot and it does duty as both a cruise-in car and around town driver. So ultimate drag performance is a minimal goal. I am spending money to make the car faster. Not the fastest at all costs (sacrificing streetability in traffic to be significantly worse what I have now, etc).
So I want to maximize sort of the normal range on the FAST... the 3000-7200 RPM range. And given the limitations that brings, I'm thinking the TEA heads I have now may not give up a ton to the aftermarket heads. If I were willing to do an LS7 or LSx block and add even more cubes, then that might be a way to add more power under the curve.
I've also thought about using either Mamofied TFS LS3 255s or the Frankenstein TFS LS3 heads. But I haven't really seen what they provide. I know the stock LS3 intake is better than a cathedral FAST 102 though, and that may help push the numbers to 135 which begins to make sense for the extra cash.
At that point, a supercharger would be more cost effective. But I'd prefer to stay all motor for now. I may take 150-200lbs out at some point and see what that gives me too (if I can).
Any suggestions?
I'm liking the Cam Motion Low-Lash Solid Rollers. And I've been thinking of doing either of the follows:
-402 built with LS7 crank/rods and JE lightweight pistons in the LS2 block
-Reuse my TEA Stage 2 LS6 Heads (target 12.1:1 CR)
-Upgrade my springs to PAC 1208X
-Run a Cam Motion 250/255 .650/.633 114+2 LLR Cam
-Move to T&D Shaft Mount Rockers
-Use Morel UltraPro Lifters
Reuse my port-matched FAST 102, L9H 42lbs Flex Fuel injectors, Kooks 1-7/8" Headers and 3" True Duals, and my FTP 104 lid, Circle D 2E 4000 stall (NA Converter), FLT Level 6 4L60E Auto Trans, and Moser 12-bolt w/3.73s
I think I could probably hit 130 in the quarter given the approx 3700 race weight and 26" drag radials. Maybe a tad more? To me, this feels like a pretty good combo. The 226cc port on the heads, ~320cfm flow, and 2.04" valves would make for a very responsive 402. The LLR may be a tad large, but it would probably drive better than my 234/242 111 in the 346. So, a win. Plus it's more cost effective to reuse what I can. I could always send to TEA and have them install a 2.055" intake valve and open the chamber up as well.
My other option is to go with a 416...
-416 built again using the LS7 crank/rods and JE pistons in the LS3 block
-MMS 235 or Frankenstein TFS 237s setup for Solid Roller (aim for maybe 11.8:1)
-Cam Motion LLR 250/255 .650/.633 114+2 (might go bigger, but this profile looks good here too given the better heads need less cam)
-Fully port the FAST 102
-Maybe move to a 2" header? (additional cost for perhaps small returns)
-Same supporting goodies
Goal would be enough of a power increase with the 416 and aftermarket heads to justify the additional cost of the LS3 block and the aftermarket heads. So I'm looking for maybe 133 in the quarter, which justifiably, is not a big jump if I could hit 130 reusing a lot of stuff. So, I'm not really interested in dyno numbers. And adding 10-20HP here or there with swapping headers, etc., won't buy me anything very noticeable at this power level.
I wouldn't be opposed to restalling my converter up to a 4400 or so especially if I'm carrying power to 7500. But the issue is the FAST 102 is still going to limit me. And I don't want to hack up the cowl on the car as I still drive it a lot and it does duty as both a cruise-in car and around town driver. So ultimate drag performance is a minimal goal. I am spending money to make the car faster. Not the fastest at all costs (sacrificing streetability in traffic to be significantly worse what I have now, etc).
So I want to maximize sort of the normal range on the FAST... the 3000-7200 RPM range. And given the limitations that brings, I'm thinking the TEA heads I have now may not give up a ton to the aftermarket heads. If I were willing to do an LS7 or LSx block and add even more cubes, then that might be a way to add more power under the curve.
I've also thought about using either Mamofied TFS LS3 255s or the Frankenstein TFS LS3 heads. But I haven't really seen what they provide. I know the stock LS3 intake is better than a cathedral FAST 102 though, and that may help push the numbers to 135 which begins to make sense for the extra cash.
At that point, a supercharger would be more cost effective. But I'd prefer to stay all motor for now. I may take 150-200lbs out at some point and see what that gives me too (if I can).
Any suggestions?
06-30-2015, 09:44 PM
#2
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I wish I had that kind of budget. I would lean toward the mms235. Have Tony also port the 102. Agree with the CM LLR. I think with Tony's 235 you'll keep better drive ability without really sacrificing at the top end. And you know as well as anyone how much more cam tolerant cathedrals can be. The 250's might even be a good option for you.
06-30-2015, 09:56 PM
#3
Well obviously, I have a budget or else reusing my heads wouldn't be considered. And it's still something that's a bit of a ways off. I do like to plan out what I want, so that I know what my target spend should be. Add 50% carry the 3... yeah.
06-30-2015, 10:06 PM
#5
It definitely flows more CFM. And I wouldn't put a FAST LS3 intake on an LS3 motor. There's no point. It isn't worth jack ****. The LS3 intake flows very well. I'm looking for relevant technical discussion. Not smarmy *** comments.
But I'm not a huge fan of the LS3 heads in general. It might be better go with a small port LS7 head and LS7 intake. That will def carry the power to 7500+ on a 416.
But then I get into the whole... 4L60s don't really love to spin that high, and I don't want to give up power below 6000 RPM to a cathedral head on a 416 for another 40HP at 7200+ type of discussion. Plus, the LS7s are pretty expensive.
But I'm not a huge fan of the LS3 heads in general. It might be better go with a small port LS7 head and LS7 intake. That will def carry the power to 7500+ on a 416.
But then I get into the whole... 4L60s don't really love to spin that high, and I don't want to give up power below 6000 RPM to a cathedral head on a 416 for another 40HP at 7200+ type of discussion. Plus, the LS7s are pretty expensive.
06-30-2015, 10:32 PM
#6
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I vote for the 416" with the MMS 235s, LLSR CAM (250*/255*) would drive
Better than 234*/242* in your 346, MAMOFY the FAST, 1 7/8" LTs enough
For 700 FWHP, your HP peak 6800-7000 RPM should carry to 7400+
Without much fall-off. Throttle response will be instantaneous And enough top
End to reach 133-135MPH.
With LSX Block or Big Bore RED,ERL 4.155 X 4.0 (434") with MAMO TFS LS7
Heads, MSD or VARA RAM Intake & LLSR, 136-138+ MPH with same cam,
now 2" LTs or 1 7/8-2" step. 720-740 FWHP
And even better Driveability.
Better than 234*/242* in your 346, MAMOFY the FAST, 1 7/8" LTs enough
For 700 FWHP, your HP peak 6800-7000 RPM should carry to 7400+
Without much fall-off. Throttle response will be instantaneous And enough top
End to reach 133-135MPH.
With LSX Block or Big Bore RED,ERL 4.155 X 4.0 (434") with MAMO TFS LS7
Heads, MSD or VARA RAM Intake & LLSR, 136-138+ MPH with same cam,
now 2" LTs or 1 7/8-2" step. 720-740 FWHP
And even better Driveability.
06-30-2015, 10:35 PM
#7
I like reading your posts and your comments your a very knowledgeable guy who has very well thought out combos and I am liking both of these setups. Out of the two options you listed I would go the 416 route. It just seems there is a lot more potential there where as in little changes here and there will tweak enough power that would satisfy what your looking for. The first option is a good and viable one and could lead to upgrades down the road, but it seems at the end of the road you would end up where the 416 could put you now. I am at this point with my 346 I have now that me and Mamo will be going over soon. High revving solid roller or go more cubes. Of course in the NA game no replacement for displacement comes to mind.
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07-01-2015, 08:10 AM
#8
My vote is for the 416, buy instead of going with the TFS LS3 heads, step up to the RHS LS7 heads, or even the TFS LS7 heads.
Trick Flow GenX 260cc LS7 heads.
GM LS fans, here is a sure-fire formula for making more power:
Big bore LS engine + Trick Flow GenX 260 LS7 cylinder heads = huge power in a lightweight package.
Trick Flow’s GenX 260 square port aluminum cylinder heads for GM LS7 are designed to meet the needs of enthusiasts using any LS-based engine block with a minimum bore diameter of 4.100"". To improve the factory design, Trick Flow added more material to the A356-T61 aluminum castings for increased rigidity and strength. Then Trick Flow improved the valvetrain system by integrating modular one-piece, 2024-T4 billet aluminum rocker arm mounts that are removable for high-end shaft rocker setups. Trick Flow’s high flow, high velocity CNC Competition Ported runners with the premium high resolution surface finish provide all-out air flow and performance throughout the entire powerband.
Other major improvements include the available 6-bolt per cylinder clamping for GMPP LSX and other aftermarket blocks, clearance for 3/8"" pushrods, through-deck coolant holes to fit all GM LS gasket and block combinations, Trick-Alloy powdered-metal valve guides, solid stem valves, and two Trick Flow by PAC Racing Pacaloy™ valve spring packages.
Trick Flow GenX 260 square port cylinder heads for GM LS7 work with all LS7-style intake manifolds. The heads maintain the factory intake and exhaust port locations, valve angles, and valve locations so they work with existing LS7-based pistons. Fully assembled cylinder heads include valve springs, steel or titanium spring retainers, die forged steel valve locks, and valves. The cylinder heads are available fully assembled or as bare castings.
RHS Pro Elite LS7 heads.
RHS® Pro Elite™3.900" Bore LS7 CNC-Ported Cylinder Heads not only get the best LS rectangular port heads onto all GM LS 5.7L – 6.0L blocks, they also provide up to 100 bolt-on horsepower over stock and feature all the benefits of other RHS® LS7 heads. These new Pro Elite™ cylinder fit all LS applications down to the 3.900" bore, and utilize LS7 intake manifolds. Offered in CNC and P-Port (unfinished runner) versions, the heads’ intake ports are raised .220" from the stock location for a straight line of sight into the cylinder, and utilize the LS 6-bolt head design compatible with the RHS® LS Race Block and GM LSX Block. They can also be used with OEM, 4-bolt blocks. Additionally, a .750"- thick deck surface and reinforced rocker rails make for more rigidity in high horsepower and boosted applications. RHS® Pro Elite™ 3.900" Bore LS7 CNC-Ported Cylinder Heads are designed to use eight standard, LS1-style exhaust rockers and eight offset LS3-style style intake rockers and stands. Buyers will save money, as they won’t need to order a full set of less common 1.8 ratio LS7 rockers.
•Includes (1) bare 355-T6 aluminum CNC cylinder head
•CNC-machined intake & exhaust runners as well as combustion chambers
•Intake ports raised .220" from stock location for strait line of sight into the cylinders
•FIt LS Blocks down to 3.900" bore - Perfect for 5.7-6.0L (LS1/LS6/LS2/LQ4/LQ9) block equipped applications
•Uses (8) LS3 offset intake rockers & (8) LS1 intake or exhaust rockers OR (8) LS3 exhaust rockers over less common/more expensive LS7 rockers
•Will work with standard 4-bolt OEM LS blocks or aftermarket 6-bolt blocks (RHS® LS Alum. Block & GMPP LSX)
•.750" thick deck & reinforced rocker rails make heads ideal for high HP & boosted applications
•Set-up for 2.100" intake & 1.575" exhaust valves
Trick Flow GenX 260cc LS7 heads.
GM LS fans, here is a sure-fire formula for making more power:
Big bore LS engine + Trick Flow GenX 260 LS7 cylinder heads = huge power in a lightweight package.
Trick Flow’s GenX 260 square port aluminum cylinder heads for GM LS7 are designed to meet the needs of enthusiasts using any LS-based engine block with a minimum bore diameter of 4.100"". To improve the factory design, Trick Flow added more material to the A356-T61 aluminum castings for increased rigidity and strength. Then Trick Flow improved the valvetrain system by integrating modular one-piece, 2024-T4 billet aluminum rocker arm mounts that are removable for high-end shaft rocker setups. Trick Flow’s high flow, high velocity CNC Competition Ported runners with the premium high resolution surface finish provide all-out air flow and performance throughout the entire powerband.
Other major improvements include the available 6-bolt per cylinder clamping for GMPP LSX and other aftermarket blocks, clearance for 3/8"" pushrods, through-deck coolant holes to fit all GM LS gasket and block combinations, Trick-Alloy powdered-metal valve guides, solid stem valves, and two Trick Flow by PAC Racing Pacaloy™ valve spring packages.
Trick Flow GenX 260 square port cylinder heads for GM LS7 work with all LS7-style intake manifolds. The heads maintain the factory intake and exhaust port locations, valve angles, and valve locations so they work with existing LS7-based pistons. Fully assembled cylinder heads include valve springs, steel or titanium spring retainers, die forged steel valve locks, and valves. The cylinder heads are available fully assembled or as bare castings.
RHS Pro Elite LS7 heads.
RHS® Pro Elite™3.900" Bore LS7 CNC-Ported Cylinder Heads not only get the best LS rectangular port heads onto all GM LS 5.7L – 6.0L blocks, they also provide up to 100 bolt-on horsepower over stock and feature all the benefits of other RHS® LS7 heads. These new Pro Elite™ cylinder fit all LS applications down to the 3.900" bore, and utilize LS7 intake manifolds. Offered in CNC and P-Port (unfinished runner) versions, the heads’ intake ports are raised .220" from the stock location for a straight line of sight into the cylinder, and utilize the LS 6-bolt head design compatible with the RHS® LS Race Block and GM LSX Block. They can also be used with OEM, 4-bolt blocks. Additionally, a .750"- thick deck surface and reinforced rocker rails make for more rigidity in high horsepower and boosted applications. RHS® Pro Elite™ 3.900" Bore LS7 CNC-Ported Cylinder Heads are designed to use eight standard, LS1-style exhaust rockers and eight offset LS3-style style intake rockers and stands. Buyers will save money, as they won’t need to order a full set of less common 1.8 ratio LS7 rockers.
•Includes (1) bare 355-T6 aluminum CNC cylinder head
•CNC-machined intake & exhaust runners as well as combustion chambers
•Intake ports raised .220" from stock location for strait line of sight into the cylinders
•FIt LS Blocks down to 3.900" bore - Perfect for 5.7-6.0L (LS1/LS6/LS2/LQ4/LQ9) block equipped applications
•Uses (8) LS3 offset intake rockers & (8) LS1 intake or exhaust rockers OR (8) LS3 exhaust rockers over less common/more expensive LS7 rockers
•Will work with standard 4-bolt OEM LS blocks or aftermarket 6-bolt blocks (RHS® LS Alum. Block & GMPP LSX)
•.750" thick deck & reinforced rocker rails make heads ideal for high HP & boosted applications
•Set-up for 2.100" intake & 1.575" exhaust valves
Last edited by Rise of the Phoenix; 07-01-2015 at 08:49 AM.
07-01-2015, 09:34 AM
#9
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I'm with you there. I'm looking 18 months out so I know how much to save and how much goes to Am Ex. Either way, Jake, you are one of the most knowledgeable guys on here and always giving out good advice. I"m sure whatever you decide it'll be one hell of a build
07-01-2015, 12:30 PM
#10
402 Solid Roller w/my heads or 416 Solid Roller w/aftermarket heads? Nice choice of internals on the short block 
You know me... I'd want an aftermarket casting. Sell your heads you have now.
Those small bore LS7's sure are nice, but Tony does good work, and we ALL know Chris does too. That's a really tough choice to be honest.
Personally I'd run a Peak Speed ported LS3 intake and save some coin and flow more. Sell your 102. That is, IF you go the LS3 route. Don't sleep on Mast either. Pick up a casting and you'll see what I mean. Hell, look back at the CNC work of the small bore LS3's that I had.
Decisions decisions....
You know me... I'd want an aftermarket casting. Sell your heads you have now.
Those small bore LS7's sure are nice, but Tony does good work, and we ALL know Chris does too. That's a really tough choice to be honest.
Personally I'd run a Peak Speed ported LS3 intake and save some coin and flow more. Sell your 102. That is, IF you go the LS3 route. Don't sleep on Mast either. Pick up a casting and you'll see what I mean. Hell, look back at the CNC work of the small bore LS3's that I had.
Decisions decisions....
07-01-2015, 12:39 PM
#11
"Decisions decisions...."
Isn't that the damn truth. It seems whenever I do research for something nothing is straight forward. Always decisions and compromises to be made. Then when I finally make the decision and purchase, a day or two later I come across something better.
Isn't that the damn truth. It seems whenever I do research for something nothing is straight forward. Always decisions and compromises to be made. Then when I finally make the decision and purchase, a day or two later I come across something better.
07-01-2015, 09:24 PM
#16
Have a look at this thread. Then check out post #26. Dig the power of the milder of the 2 combos mentioned.
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...=633402&page=2
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...=633402&page=2
Last edited by speedtigger; 07-01-2015 at 09:34 PM.
