RollinSScamaro

iTrader: (25)

Sounds like a plan then, may put me on hold for a month or two, but thats why i started early this year, just in case i ran into kinks.. atleast by the time im done my motor should be good for a long time, atleast id hope haha..

Are the coated bearings the way to go now for added protection against wear?

Definitely far from balling lol.. not trying to have $20k into a $11k car..

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

No. Not worth it. That's just for initial startup. If it's a street driven car, it probably doesn't sit long enough for the bearings to be completely devoid of all oil. But it does cut down on any startup wear.

RollinSScamaro

iTrader: (25)

Anything else i should have the machine shop quote for me when talking with them other than the parts listed? Anyone have experience going through this process? Any unknown added costs that popped up during your experience?

customblackbird

iTrader: (2)

I would have them at least Hot tank it. Get it good and clean so you can paint it and get all the crank out of the oil gallies etc.

No need for ARP rod bolts unless you plan on spinning the ****** 6500+rpms.

Tank, light hone, cam bearings, throw it all back together, check for main and rod clearances, prob a new oil pump, LS6 or GM HV (90$ and its a LS6 basically with a larger output hole DIA). ARP head bolts if you dont have the means to do the stock style TTY head bolts. New Rings gapped for your small NOS hit.

Usually the added costs are:
1.) Magnaflux
2.) check crank straightness... needs a line hone $299+
3.) bore and hone
4.) Deck for trueness
5.) cam bearings.

Thats about all you can do to any block.

RollinSScamaro

iTrader: (25)

Thanks! Thats great info, now i need to start calling around.. anyone have an idea of what would be a rough estimate to do the items mentioned, assuming best and worst case.. i sent an email to a vendor here in michigan to see what they offer.. i feel better knowing they do a lot of LS motors but nervous to hear pricing lol

RollinSScamaro

iTrader: (25)

Figuring 15 to 20 hours quote came back at $1275 to $1700 not including parts.. lot more than expected.. if it happened to hit 20 hours i might as well buy a new shortblock at that price.. if it came in at the 15 hour mark id expect that to be the norm.. anyone had this work done and get similar quotes?

RollinSScamaro

iTrader: (25)

New quote.. local shop that has done quite a few ls1s. Not sure about the parts pricing.. the bearings seem very cheap, so maybe ill have to ask the brand..

Parts:
Rings -$115
Rod bearings -$17
Main bearings- $39.95
Cam bearings- $20.60
ARP bolts - $127.17

Labor:
Clean labor -$85
Hone-$68
Cam bearings-$35
Polish crank-$25
Rod bolts-$128 due to running the ARP
Assemble short block-$450

Estimated total : $1200. Add $550 to do the long block.

Sounds pretty fair.. any thoughts on this quote?

customblackbird

iTrader: (2)

sounds alittle better. I would walk away with a block between 400-600$ on a bore and stroke, clean and magnaflux with cam bearings and freeze plugs. The LS isn't any more different.

I dont think i need to polish the crank, if it was fine then leave it as is. If u polish it, it removes material and it increases your clearances. So u might need different bearings.

just get it clean and honed. Then cam bearings. Don't bother with the rod bolts like I've stated. New rings are a must now that ur doing a hone. Put all new bearings in and cal it day. Don't forget to replace the cam retainer plate and I would recommend replacing the oil pump and timing chain now that it's all apart. Didn't see those costs included.

customblackbird

iTrader: (2)

Pick up a cheap domestic gasket kit off eBay, I got one for my 5.3 for $100 and it included MLS head gaskets and comes with every seal possible. The kits are foreign but they are on par with felpro except the head gaskets. U can use every gasket except the heads from what I've read and be fine. It's up to u on the head gaskets. I picked up GM performance MLS LS1 gasket from summit for $36 and I'm going to run those. The domestic gasket kit looked great and all the seals look OEM and I'm impressed. And it's hella cheaper than buying a $300+ felpro.

You can save money there. Plus the money u saved on no ARP rod bolts, no crank polish etc and the gaskets helps.

Summit sells a new cam retainer plate plate with the upgraded counter sunk bolts for like $17. I just picked one up bc I don't want to trust the stocker and the stock LS1 has different bolts that don't work with the counter sunk LS2 style.

You also might ight want to upgrade the lifter trays with LS2 trays and bolts (summit)

RollinSScamaro

iTrader: (25)

With this being a quote just over the phone im thinking he was assuming some things may need to be done. Ill have them skip the crank polish for sure since there is no reason for it. I do have a billet timing chain and a ported ls6 oil pump.. went with a new cam retainer plate also with the new ls3 bolts..

If i plan to rev to 6800 you dont think the rod bolts would be a good upgrade? Ive heard of the factory bolts breaking so i assumed it would be the smart option, but maybe stock is fine? Any certain brands better for the bearings or will stock replacement work fine?

Thanks!

RollinSScamaro

iTrader: (25)

I have all of the gaskets already.. i will just need to get a rear main seal and an oil pan gasket.. i ended up going with the head/cam gasket kit fron ws6 store with the valley cover upgrade that comes with new knock sensors and harness.. pretty good deal, upgraded to the cometic .040 gaskets also to get a better quench and bump compression a little.. cam is 230/236 .620/.603 112+2

kinglt-1

iTrader: (26)

Stock rod bolts are fine to 7200 rpm. Some of the 98-00 LS1's had trouble but it's not common especially in the 01-04 LS1's.

customblackbird

iTrader: (2)

When they pull the crank they should verify the crank is fine and if it needs a polish then it gets done. But if yours was fine before its prob good to go. If they do polish it then they need to pay attention to clearances... as they should be doing anyway but Ive read alot of buiders just throw the stock bearings in after a polish and they have excessive clearance.

Make sure they gap the rings for whatever NOS hit your running and if you ever think your going to go more then figure that out now and have the rings gapped accordingly.

Rod bolts are fine as stated. You dont even need new ones I believe... just the heads and balancer are TTY bolts. Reuse everything but the head and balancer bolt. ARP head bolts just make your life easier and reusable.

customblackbird

iTrader: (2)

The cost of the oil pan gasket is already 1/3 the cost of the complete kit lol... thats why I stated it. For the extra $50 or whatever you could have alot of extra gaskets just in case. Did you get a new front timing cover seal in your kit and all the steam port seals etc? Just make sure you have everything as theres nothing worse than being stuck and have to stop due to a gasket.

Dont forget about the oil flow barbell at the back of the block under the rear cover... replace it if its original.

Going to have to check out the valley cover upgrade from them. The good ACdelco knock sensors are $45 a pop and the harness is another $50. So your looking at about $150 in just the 2 sensors and harness. The cheap knock off sensors and harness are like 1/4 the price... but they are junk and have nothing but problem.

RollinSScamaro

iTrader: (25)

Sounds like the ARP bolts may be a way for me to save.. I just want to make sure nothing breaks long term and is reliable for years.. I have no experience with Nitrous but don't want to spray anything high enough that would require an additional fuel cell.. So 125 / 150 at most? I didn't realize that rings needed to be gapped for spray so i'm glad you guys brought that up! Will nitrous put additional strain on the rod bolts?

Yea the kit came with the front seal and steam port seals. Its a really good kit for the price. The valley cover gasket upgrade was about $150 and came with 2 new GM knock sensors and a harness.. Ws6 store seems to use a lot of the GM /AC delco items in their kits.. I was real impressed with their pricing and free shipping over $100. I couldn't find cheaper prices anywhere.

The oil barbell i am going to get that new one from sacc city corvette, thanks for bringing that up! I just looked through that thread and plan to order soon.

Do you have a link to that gasket kit you are talking about? All i'd need would be the oil pan and rear main seal and i should be good.. I had my head/cam build planned very well.. Just didn't plan on dinging my cam bearing lol..

customblackbird

iTrader: (2)

Any hardware is going to last, ARP head bolts just make your life easier to tq them. Basically bolt them down to 72lbs or something close to that with a tq wrench and your done. Stock TTY you need to tq and then angle tq them. Once they are tqd you can not reuse the TTY bolts. ARP you can use over and over. ARP studs are better in every way but more like 2x the cost of the ARP bolts and studs are better on aluminum blocks.

Yes NOS increased combustion chamber pressure and temps like a switch! Heat the stock close ring gaps up and they butt up and break the piston ring land and game over. Alot of people have that issue on stock blocks and they boost the hell out of them. (basically what I'm doing) but over a certain PSI and depending on the mileage of the motor/rings you can be fine or push it to far and break a piston. Higher mileage motors have more worn rings and thus the gaps are wider than stock. My 150k motor has been fine up to 12psi.

I built a 521 BBF and Mahle gave a card with the forged flatops and they gave gaps for boost and NOS... a small hit of 125-150hp of NOS required a bigger gap. But remember as your gap increases your blow by does and you bleed cylinder pressure. So you might notice alittle more crankcase pressure but once the NOS hits it should seal up real good and go like crazy. Better safe than sorry.

You wouldnt need an additional fuel cell, just enough pump to keep up. a 340 or 450lph in the stock tank will support 700+hp. I only say make up your mind bc NOS and boost are addictive. You can gap your rings for a 150 shot but 1 year down the road want to try a 200 or 250hp shot... now you gotta do the rings again lol. Do it once and be done, so figure that out now.

NOS does not strain the rod bolts, NOS and Boost are more "explosive", this pushes the piston down on the crank, bolts aren't stressed during the dowward firing motion. Its when they are pulled back down the cylinder when not firing that the rod bolts are stressed. Basically RPM is the only thing stressing the rod bolts. Keep it under 7000-7200rpms and you'll be fine. I have a 99 5.3 so my rod bolts are the shitty design so I have to keep it below 6500. I wont even touch the rod bolts... I would just upgrade to the gen 4 floating rods/pistons and do rod bolts to those but I'm never going to spin higher than 6000-6500.

I saw the price $250 ouch. plus $135 for the knock sensor kit, plus $105 for the ARP head bolts.

I just received my oil barbell from Sacc, its a nice piece. you'll like it lol.

Heres a lower gasket kit for $65
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-Corvette-Cadillac-Avanti-Pontiac-5-7L-OHV-Lower-Gasket-Set-/300729800332?fits=Year%3A2002%7CMake%3AChevrolet%7CModel%3ACamaro&vxp=mtr&hash=item4604e4968c
Full gasket kit for a 01-03 6.0, same as the 5.7 basically
http://www.ebay.com/itm/01-03-Chevro...pRSMhN&vxp=mtr

RollinSScamaro

iTrader: (25)

Awesome info! thanks for taking the time to review everything to make sure I understand all of the fine details because a lot of this is new to me.. since I would only be spraying at the track which is 1 or 2 times a year and maybe on the street once in and while, would that be enough to gap the rings still? I won't be able to buy a kit for another year or 2 also.. would it be bad to have them gapped and have increased blow by at that point for minimal spray?.. I never plan to get too crazy with spray because i simply can't afford to do another motor build lol.. especially when I know my 10 bolt will probably snap this year.

Just double and triple checking to make sure I'm making all the proper decisions on this build.. that gasket set is pretty cheap! Anything I can save I'll take it at this point lol

customblackbird

iTrader: (2)

No prob.

This is the thing.... don't gap the rings and take the chance or gap the rings to be sure. Even if u gap the rings and do everything correctly you could still pop a piston by getting to Lean like a clogged/failed injector or whatever. NOS and boost can be very picky and destroy something in a blink of an eye. Yours is a small hit so you would have to ask people who build LS motors for small hits. You might be fine and not need it. The blowby or cylinder pressure leak isn't noticeable in regular driving. If your running a catch can u might see alittle more oil in it or if your running breathers you might notice alittle more vapor etc.

maybe even contact the NOS company and verify. But I would for sure post in the forced induction/power adder section and hear what others have done and run the combos.

like I said with the gaskets on a stock rebuild I would run the cheap kit after seeing them in person. Even the head gaskets look decent but for the head gaskets I would run better like GM or your cometic to be safe.

saving money is great when u do it in the right places lol. Like your billet timing chain is a waste. You would have been fine with a stock style replacement single row. No need for dual rollers on the LS. Your oil pump is good. Maybe some other small changes. I wouldn't run ARP on anything but the heads for your setup. Can get a stock style balancer bolt or get a cheaper summit or jegs brand. The balancer doesn't actually get held on by the bolt it's interference fit. Most people upgrade the bolt for easy tq down and re usability. Did you have the heads gone through? New springs and seals etc? A valve job and light port work behind the valve seats shows decent gains.

RollinSScamaro

iTrader: (25)

Sounds good, maybe i'll have to ask a few others than run nitrous and see what their thoughts are. I have a little time to determine this since i still need to find a cherry picker and pull my motor.

I did get the billet timing chain because it was roughly $40 more just in case there was any wear on the sprockets.. it was just to save me hassle later, but it is a single row. I thought double was overkill for sure. I have most of the other parts listed so i should be good, but i need to get a catch can for later. I also have the ARP crank bolt for ease of torque.

All of the valvetrain is upgraded with .660 springs and titanium retainers. The heads i'll be running are Advanced induction 226cc 243's. They look real nice, can't wait to get results when the time comes.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

The quote you have seem reasonable to me provided you feel confident in the shop and they have a good reputation.

FWIW - Key item is the communication good and both ways. I also like to see the shop. If its dirty, cluttered, has piles of metal shavings everywhere - run. I've seen one that looked like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre for engine blocks & cylinder heads.. All of the outstanding engine builders I've know where neat, organized, clean, precise, meticulous and their shops reflected the mind set. Engine assembly areas looked spotless like an operating room almost. All of the bad hack builders and shops I've encountered reeked of inattention to detail.

For reference, this summer I got a labor & machining an estimate for building an LS6 & LS6 383 from a top notch shop that had won an Engine Masters challege. Long block with intake installed.

Labor & machine work only.
LS6 $2000 to $2500
LS6 383 $2500 to $3000