Setting up for max mid range power (Tq)
09-08-2004, 10:27 AM
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Setting up for max mid range power (Tq) All my set up will be gearing me towards the top end of the rev range. But I want good torque from 2500 upwards as well.
I have the parts for the set-up in my sig. (not all on yet, heads, R/R and intake system going on soon.)
I'm not too concerned with peak HP numbers, it's the acceleration I'm after so I need really good torque all the way up.
Any suggestions on the cam I might choose?(No notching please)
The exhaust has very little back pressure so I could easily go with a short lsa and long duration (but that will push power high also?
) . I also have good springs so can go with reasonable lift.
So I have the intake, exhaust and heads for the power, I just need to control it and maximise it with the cam.
I would imagine that this is the kind of thing that eveyone should be considering (balancing their set-up).
Imagine it's for road racing if that helps (not daily driver).
Cheers guys
Tom.
I have the parts for the set-up in my sig. (not all on yet, heads, R/R and intake system going on soon.)
I'm not too concerned with peak HP numbers, it's the acceleration I'm after so I need really good torque all the way up.
Any suggestions on the cam I might choose?(No notching please)
The exhaust has very little back pressure so I could easily go with a short lsa and long duration (but that will push power high also?
) . I also have good springs so can go with reasonable lift.So I have the intake, exhaust and heads for the power, I just need to control it and maximise it with the cam.
I would imagine that this is the kind of thing that eveyone should be considering (balancing their set-up).
Imagine it's for road racing if that helps (not daily driver).
Cheers guys
Tom.
09-08-2004, 02:28 PM
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I LOVE this VHP 047 grind that I have here. The specs may sound low - 210/218 .53X/.53X 112, but the thing is a complete torque monster.
It's starts to wake up at 1,500... by 2,000 the exhaust note turns p*ssed-off and this thing is making obscene torque. There is a pronounced hump in torque at 3,500, where the horsepower seems to take over. It pulls perfectly clean and hard from 2K to to 6K+. (I haven't found the point where power drops off yet - I think it's around 6,500.)
My engine is "ready to go" at any amount of pedal, and at any RPM. Throttle responce is near instant. You don't need to be ham-fisted (ham-footed?) with your motor to make power with this thing. The cam would work awesome for tighter street stalls, but it works great in my stock stalled truck... through the manifolds too.
Here is a short clip at idle.
I previously ran a popular small drag cam - 220/220 duration, mid lift, on a 112. The 047 is no comparison for my intended useage here.
It's starts to wake up at 1,500... by 2,000 the exhaust note turns p*ssed-off and this thing is making obscene torque. There is a pronounced hump in torque at 3,500, where the horsepower seems to take over. It pulls perfectly clean and hard from 2K to to 6K+. (I haven't found the point where power drops off yet - I think it's around 6,500.)
My engine is "ready to go" at any amount of pedal, and at any RPM. Throttle responce is near instant. You don't need to be ham-fisted (ham-footed?) with your motor to make power with this thing. The cam would work awesome for tighter street stalls, but it works great in my stock stalled truck... through the manifolds too.
Here is a short clip at idle.
I previously ran a popular small drag cam - 220/220 duration, mid lift, on a 112. The 047 is no comparison for my intended useage here.
09-08-2004, 03:13 PM
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I have a tiny 224/.560/112+4 XE in my 382 with only 10.6:1cr. I'm far from having major peak numbers, but take a look at the torque in the mid-range! This is through a 12 bolts, steel DS and dual-friction cluch.
09-08-2004, 05:07 PM
#5
Originally Posted by marc_w
I LOVE this VHP 047 grind that I have here. The specs may sound low - 210/218 .53X/.53X 112, but the thing is a complete torque monster.
It's starts to wake up at 1,500... by 2,000 the exhaust note turns p*ssed-off and this thing is making obscene torque. There is a pronounced hump in torque at 3,500, where the horsepower seems to take over. It pulls perfectly clean and hard from 2K to to 6K+. (I haven't found the point where power drops off yet - I think it's around 6,500.)
My engine is "ready to go" at any amount of pedal, and at any RPM. Throttle responce is near instant. You don't need to be ham-fisted (ham-footed?) with your motor to make power with this thing. The cam would work awesome for tighter street stalls, but it works great in my stock stalled truck... through the manifolds too.
Here is a short clip at idle.
I previously ran a popular small drag cam - 220/220 duration, mid lift, on a 112. The 047 is no comparison for my intended useage here.
It's starts to wake up at 1,500... by 2,000 the exhaust note turns p*ssed-off and this thing is making obscene torque. There is a pronounced hump in torque at 3,500, where the horsepower seems to take over. It pulls perfectly clean and hard from 2K to to 6K+. (I haven't found the point where power drops off yet - I think it's around 6,500.)
My engine is "ready to go" at any amount of pedal, and at any RPM. Throttle responce is near instant. You don't need to be ham-fisted (ham-footed?) with your motor to make power with this thing. The cam would work awesome for tighter street stalls, but it works great in my stock stalled truck... through the manifolds too.
Here is a short clip at idle.
I previously ran a popular small drag cam - 220/220 duration, mid lift, on a 112. The 047 is no comparison for my intended useage here.
i've yet to see any independent VHP cam results that have shown them to be superior in low end or mid range over anything comperable.
09-08-2004, 08:17 PM
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Hey Tommy,is that hot rod running already?Sounds like it would be wicked fast at 1900 lbs.In a set-up like you have why don"t you try something with a tight lda say 110 or even 109 with max lift and about 236 duration It would have a slight chop to the idle but you could live with it,the tight lda would make killer torque in the midrange.Be careful picking that next cam since you have those 1.8 rockers!! 
09-09-2004, 06:36 AM
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Cheers guys for the responses.
I guess it's pretty difficult to predict with such a lot of variables.
I am prepared to get rid of the 1.8's if needed. I know some of the modern ramp rates are too high already for them.
That Tq curve up the post looks frightening, but that's the sort of thing I need if you don't want to run a 8-spead trans!
I was under the impression that VHP had a good reputation?
Fastone, the car gets road registered on Monday but I have already taken it on a private road near an airfield. She does go! 0-60 in under 4s currently
.
I thought that a LSA of 109 would push the power further up
and I don't wan't to fly-cut at the mo. I need good duration to make the most of my breathing ability.
I don't want dead spots (apart from sub-2K) but I do want max Tq all the way along, to be predictable as much as anything. You don't want too many suprises in a mid engined car!
Anyone else with free breathing set-ups add 2c worth.
I guess it's pretty difficult to predict with such a lot of variables.
I am prepared to get rid of the 1.8's if needed. I know some of the modern ramp rates are too high already for them.
That Tq curve up the post looks frightening, but that's the sort of thing I need if you don't want to run a 8-spead trans!
I was under the impression that VHP had a good reputation?
Fastone, the car gets road registered on Monday but I have already taken it on a private road near an airfield. She does go! 0-60 in under 4s currently
.I thought that a LSA of 109 would push the power further up
and I don't wan't to fly-cut at the mo. I need good duration to make the most of my breathing ability.I don't want dead spots (apart from sub-2K) but I do want max Tq all the way along, to be predictable as much as anything. You don't want too many suprises in a mid engined car!
Anyone else with free breathing set-ups add 2c worth.
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09-09-2004, 10:04 AM
#8
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"There is a pronounced hump in torque at 3,500, where the horsepower seems to take over."
You talk about HP and TQ as if they're two separate forces. One doesn't die off and the other takes over. HP is just a calculation of TQ and RPM. TQ x RPM / 5252= HP When people say "has great low end TQ", what they could also say is "makes great HP at low RPMs." "Strong midrange TQ" means the same thing as "Strong midrange HP."
You talk about HP and TQ as if they're two separate forces. One doesn't die off and the other takes over. HP is just a calculation of TQ and RPM. TQ x RPM / 5252= HP When people say "has great low end TQ", what they could also say is "makes great HP at low RPMs." "Strong midrange TQ" means the same thing as "Strong midrange HP."
09-09-2004, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommy Tucker
Cheers guys for the responses.
I don't want dead spots (apart from sub-2K) but I do want max Tq all the way along, to be predictable as much as anything. You don't want too many suprises in a mid engined car!
Anyone else with free breathing set-ups add 2c worth.
I don't want dead spots (apart from sub-2K) but I do want max Tq all the way along, to be predictable as much as anything. You don't want too many suprises in a mid engined car!
Anyone else with free breathing set-ups add 2c worth.
Last edited by TTtop; 09-09-2004 at 10:48 AM.
09-09-2004, 10:23 AM
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Yep, an engine will only give so much. It's how it's distributed that's the key.
As they say "HP sells cars but torque wins races."
It would be nice to get the a Tq curve like Blue Hawks 382 but how can I get one with my stock cubes??
So Colonel, any suggestions, taking into account my sig, I'm looking for high but even Tq from 2500-6000 rpm (aren't we all!). Shoulf I be looking at higher lift on a 114 to balance the high top end?
Cheers Tom.
As they say "HP sells cars but torque wins races."
It would be nice to get the a Tq curve like Blue Hawks 382 but how can I get one with my stock cubes??
So Colonel, any suggestions, taking into account my sig, I'm looking for high but even Tq from 2500-6000 rpm (aren't we all!). Shoulf I be looking at higher lift on a 114 to balance the high top end?
Cheers Tom.
09-09-2004, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by jrp
you keep going on and on about this cam but i've yet to actually see your dyno to compare the off idle to 4k power. if you've posted it up and i missed it hit me up with the link.
i've yet to see any independent VHP cam results that have shown them to be superior in low end or mid range over anything comperable.
i've yet to see any independent VHP cam results that have shown them to be superior in low end or mid range over anything comperable.
I don't have a dyno yet - I'll have one coming soon enough. I only know one other member on this site running a VHP cam. I'll ask him about a dyno.
I'm interested in seeing what it looks like too. I'm honestly concerned the difference in cams isn't comparable on a dyno - it's not often I WOT, so 90% of my experience with the cams I talked about are during "spirited" daily driving situations. One cam liked to be driven hard, the other gets my pig of a truck hustling with half as much pedal.
09-09-2004, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Colonel
You talk about HP and TQ as if they're two separate forces. One doesn't die off and the other takes over. HP is just a calculation of TQ and RPM. TQ x RPM / 5252= HP When people say "has great low end TQ", what they could also say is "makes great HP at low RPMs." "Strong midrange TQ" means the same thing as "Strong midrange HP."
I actually edited this post to reword again. I've got a nasty cold and my head is real foggy. Aparrently I'm not thinking too straight.
The cam comes alive and pulls healthy at 2K. Sweeping up towards 3,500, the cam is of course making more power/torque - it's just that the "stump pulling" torque isn't as noticeable once you start really spinning the motor. That's what I was trying to get at about the 'horsepower taking over' part. I didn't want it to sound like power fell off.
I guess it's a perception thing seeing as I'm going all by SOTP differences. To me, torque is lowend power, midrange is just midrange, and upper RPM's I associate to horsepower.
To reword my original post in terms of power - the cam produces great lowend and midrange power, while still revving out and pulling hard on the top-end.
Last edited by marc_w; 09-09-2004 at 11:49 AM.
09-09-2004, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by TTtop
I think the torque is pretty good from 2.5k-6k is pretty good, how about you?
How is the driveability/idle in city driving? Damn! That tq curve is bad ***!!!
09-09-2004, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Blue Hawk
How is the driveability/idle in city driving? Damn! That tq curve is bad ***!!!
So now I pedal the gas a little while the engine goes thru the warm-up, not a problem. After warm-up, the engine is fine, it idles great at about 800rpms, this cam has a nice chug to it!!
Driving on the street has presented no issues, occasionally some cam surge will show up as I slow down for a stop light. There is also some surge when backing up, but it is not enough to kill the motor.
I drive this car daily with no problems, the increase in torque has made it obvious that I need to switch off the 17" wheels I have and go to 15" rims with a taller sidewall DR tire for more traction on the street. The car pulls almost effortlessly from just off idle when leaving a stoplight, it's great! Alot better than a H/C car that bogs when taking off..........Randy
09-09-2004, 11:45 AM
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"So Colonel, any suggestions, taking into account my sig, I'm looking for high but even Tq from 2500-6000 rpm (aren't we all!)."
That's a very wide range. It's easier to optimize HP in a narrow range. For an extremely wide range, alot of compromise has to be made. Would you say that power between 2500-4000 is more important than 4500-6000 (that would mean making peak HP at only 5000-5500 RPM)? Are you looking to shift at 6000? And what kind of idle are you looking for (sound and speed)?
That's a very wide range. It's easier to optimize HP in a narrow range. For an extremely wide range, alot of compromise has to be made. Would you say that power between 2500-4000 is more important than 4500-6000 (that would mean making peak HP at only 5000-5500 RPM)? Are you looking to shift at 6000? And what kind of idle are you looking for (sound and speed)?
09-09-2004, 01:10 PM
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Another great Tq curve there 
I am prepared to compromise. I don't have the IAC connected at the mo until I do all the mods and get the tuning done. It idles on the screw and once warm is no trouble. I don't want daily driver type performance as it's basically a Can-Am style racer for the road and track. And I'm only into GO not impressing chicks with the lope. I have a straight through exhaust which I can quieten down for noise tests etc.
I want ***** out performance (without the flt-cutting), but a flat Tq curve would allow me not to have to thrash the guts out of it all the time. (I have a 5 speed manual trans+LSD).
But I don't mind a choppy short LSA is it delivers.
Tom.
I am prepared to compromise. I don't have the IAC connected at the mo until I do all the mods and get the tuning done. It idles on the screw and once warm is no trouble. I don't want daily driver type performance as it's basically a Can-Am style racer for the road and track. And I'm only into GO
not impressing chicks with the lope. I have a straight through exhaust which I can quieten down for noise tests etc.I want ***** out performance (without the flt-cutting), but a flat Tq curve would allow me not to have to thrash the guts out of it all the time. (I have a 5 speed manual trans+LSD).
But I don't mind a choppy short LSA is it delivers.
Tom.
09-09-2004, 01:16 PM
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I guess that as it will be driven fast then peak power should be around 6000-6500K otherwise it won't have the top end.
If I'm farting around at 2000rpm I don't mind less tq down there. So 4000-6000 rpm will be the most important area.
I guess that as it will be driven fast then peak power should be around 6000-6500K otherwise it won't have the top end.
If I'm farting around at 2000rpm I don't mind less tq down there. So 4000-6000 rpm will be the most important area.
09-09-2004, 02:12 PM
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Here is a dyno of my '99 TA when it was a 346 H/C. Setup consisted of MTI Stage I heads/C2 "Hammmer" cam/MTI airlid/Ported TB/LS6 Intake/ASP Pulley/FLP longtube headers/2.5" ORP Y-Pipe/3" cutout/SLP DualDual catback. Drivetrain consisted of T-56 thru MCLeod double disk aluminum flywheel clutch thru Alum. DS thru 10-bolt w/3.73s with 17" Z06 rims sporting 275/40/17 nitto DRs.
The engine made very nice torque from 2-6k rpm, and the engine would spin up very fast, a lot faster than my present stroker....Randy
The engine made very nice torque from 2-6k rpm, and the engine would spin up very fast, a lot faster than my present stroker....Randy
09-09-2004, 03:38 PM
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[QUOTE=Tommy Tucker] 224/224 .581/.581 112 (XE-R lobes) are the specs of the C2 "Hammer" cam, you can check it out on MTI's website.
It's been around for 3-4 years now, made famous by John Raughhammer when he was running 10.6 1/4 mile ETs on the H/C setup in his "Red Pepper" 98 A4 Camaro.
With MTI's Stage II racing heads some guys got up to 440rwhp/400rwtq out that H/C combo....Randy
Originally Posted by TTtop
C2 "Hammmer" cam QUOTE]
Have to say that dyno looks nice. What are the cam specs, I'm unfamiliar with that one.
Have to say that dyno looks nice. What are the cam specs, I'm unfamiliar with that one.
It's been around for 3-4 years now, made famous by John Raughhammer when he was running 10.6 1/4 mile ETs on the H/C setup in his "Red Pepper" 98 A4 Camaro.
With MTI's Stage II racing heads some guys got up to 440rwhp/400rwtq out that H/C combo....Randy