What the hell (patriot cc) HELP
#1
What the hell (patriot cc) HELP
I had a set of heads milled that I bought off of these boards a month or so back and they were supposed to be the 64cc version.
Well he only took off 3 thousandths and then cc'd them. He came up with 58cc. And assuming they were clean up milled before. This must mean that they started as a 59cc head. Unless the guy actually took off 30 thousadths...which would put me around 58cc if they were clean up milled before...assuming 1cc off per .006 mill....dammit!!! I dont know what to do
I had them milled because they were scratched form shipping.
Does anyone know how I can tell what they started out as...like a part number?
If gunnar is around...would you know how I could find out?
The main reason I need to know is because I dont want to run into p to v clearance with my current cam in my sig...which I should have none since I am using the mls gaskets which are like .055 compressed and these heads have been barely milled. Unless of course they had the **** milled out of them before I bought them or the guy is a dumb *** and took off 30 thousandths instead of 3...
What would my compression ratio be running a 58cc head with the mls gaskets and a stock bottom end? Am I screwed for pump gas? It has got to be well over 11 to 1?
Thanks for the help, Troy
Well he only took off 3 thousandths and then cc'd them. He came up with 58cc. And assuming they were clean up milled before. This must mean that they started as a 59cc head. Unless the guy actually took off 30 thousadths...which would put me around 58cc if they were clean up milled before...assuming 1cc off per .006 mill....dammit!!! I dont know what to do
I had them milled because they were scratched form shipping.
Does anyone know how I can tell what they started out as...like a part number?
If gunnar is around...would you know how I could find out?
The main reason I need to know is because I dont want to run into p to v clearance with my current cam in my sig...which I should have none since I am using the mls gaskets which are like .055 compressed and these heads have been barely milled. Unless of course they had the **** milled out of them before I bought them or the guy is a dumb *** and took off 30 thousandths instead of 3...
What would my compression ratio be running a 58cc head with the mls gaskets and a stock bottom end? Am I screwed for pump gas? It has got to be well over 11 to 1?
Thanks for the help, Troy
Last edited by UltraZLS1; 04-04-2006 at 03:39 PM.
#2
Look on the end of the heads for a 4 digit number. This will help us trace the information on the heads. Were these a new set or were they a second hand set?
The compression will be in the 11.2-1 range, this is with a 6.0 GM MLS .055" gasket, stock bore with the piston .007" out of the hole. This can be ran on 93 with a good tune.
The compression will be in the 11.2-1 range, this is with a 6.0 GM MLS .055" gasket, stock bore with the piston .007" out of the hole. This can be ran on 93 with a good tune.
Last edited by Gunnar@Patriot; 04-04-2006 at 04:30 PM.
#5
They were second hand...but redone by you guys (patriot) with new valves, seals etc sometime in the past year and then sold to me. I dont see any number on the ends of the heads...only pat pen and co. The soft plugs have some numbers on them but I dont think that will help (numbers and letters and not 4 digit)
Anywhere else I could look?
Is this higher compression going to make the car run even worse without a tune? Because I have to drive it almost 2 hours to get the tune. The car ran fine with my 224 112 cam...So I dont know how much worse it will be with this cam, heads, and a lot more compression (over a full point more)
When I picked up the heads today I specifically asked him if he took off 3 thou or 30 and he said 3. He said they cc'd exactly 58. So if patriot took off 3 to begin with then it would work out. BUT...if you guys took of 3...then the previous owner took off 30...and then I took off 3...that would put them at 58 as well.
Im lost here
Anywhere else I could look?
Is this higher compression going to make the car run even worse without a tune? Because I have to drive it almost 2 hours to get the tune. The car ran fine with my 224 112 cam...So I dont know how much worse it will be with this cam, heads, and a lot more compression (over a full point more)
When I picked up the heads today I specifically asked him if he took off 3 thou or 30 and he said 3. He said they cc'd exactly 58. So if patriot took off 3 to begin with then it would work out. BUT...if you guys took of 3...then the previous owner took off 30...and then I took off 3...that would put them at 58 as well.
Im lost here
Last edited by UltraZLS1; 04-05-2006 at 08:38 AM.
#7
Hey Gunnar...any luck with those numbers?
I was thinking...even if these heads have been milled .036...wouldnt my cam still clear using the mls head gaskets?
I know some people running 228 size cams with the afr heads milled .024 and a .040 cometic. and some others running the f13 with afr's milled .030 and the stock gaskets.All with no cutting. Seems to me that I would be right in the ball park with these guys with p to v clearance.
Do the afr's clear better than most heads? Any input on this?
What about the compression ratio here? I am coming up with 11.5 using this calculator and -.007...58cc http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compstaticcalc.html
Is 11.5 too much for this cam? will it run ok?
Sorry for all the ?'s...im just paranoid.
thanks for the input
I was thinking...even if these heads have been milled .036...wouldnt my cam still clear using the mls head gaskets?
I know some people running 228 size cams with the afr heads milled .024 and a .040 cometic. and some others running the f13 with afr's milled .030 and the stock gaskets.All with no cutting. Seems to me that I would be right in the ball park with these guys with p to v clearance.
Do the afr's clear better than most heads? Any input on this?
What about the compression ratio here? I am coming up with 11.5 using this calculator and -.007...58cc http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compstaticcalc.html
Is 11.5 too much for this cam? will it run ok?
Sorry for all the ?'s...im just paranoid.
thanks for the input
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#8
Originally Posted by UltraZLS1
Hey Gunnar...any luck with those numbers?
What about the compression ratio here? I am coming up with 11.5 using this calculator and -.007...58cc http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compstaticcalc.html
Is 11.5 too much for this cam? will it run ok?
Sorry for all the ?'s...im just paranoid.
thanks for the input
What about the compression ratio here? I am coming up with 11.5 using this calculator and -.007...58cc http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compstaticcalc.html
Is 11.5 too much for this cam? will it run ok?
Sorry for all the ?'s...im just paranoid.
thanks for the input
#9
Well they were re-done, everything is new on them. I pm'ed the guy I bought them from and he hasnt got back to me yet
thanks a lot for the help
Well if it can be done on a tune...how is the car going to run on the way to the dyno? Will I even be able to get it their?
Looks like im sol.
thanks a lot for the help
Well if it can be done on a tune...how is the car going to run on the way to the dyno? Will I even be able to get it their?
Looks like im sol.
#10
Originally Posted by UltraZLS1
... and some others running the f13 with afr's milled .030 and the stock gaskets.All with no cutting. Seems to me that I would be right in the ball park with these guys with p to v clearance.
Do the afr's clear better than most heads? Any input on this?
Do the afr's clear better than most heads? Any input on this?
What type of F13??? Not the 112+4. Alan Futral quoted .086 on the intake side with 62cc AFR205s and the FACTORY head gasket. But this is apples and oranges and should really not be used to compair with your heads. FYI, AFRs do have slighty better clearance compared to factory LS1 castings.
You have clearence issues. You are not going to know exactly until you mock it all up and measure. 228/230 XE-R on a 112lsa I just don't see it happening with out fly-cutting (no big deal). Just measure and know for sure...
EVEN if it cleared, on the issue of pump gas you are screwed... When I work the numbers for your current cam I get a DCR of 9.04. Forget the static compression your DCR will tell you what kind of gas you will need. Assuming:
.007 out of the hole
.054 composite factory head gasket
non fly-cutting
58cc heads
Even if your fly-cuts came to 2cc it would still leave you with a DCR of 8.8
Be prepared to pull some timing or run race gas... OR you could retard that cam 2 degrees and it would drop you to a DCR of 8.66 (with 2cc from fly-cutting)... This would be a sweet combo in my opinion!!!
228/230 112lsa +2 (110ICL)
__________________________.006__.050 (lift)
Intake Valve opens - IVO_____28.5___4
Intake Valve closes - IVC_____68.5___44
Exhaust Valve Opens - EVO___73.5___49
Exhaust Valve Closes - EVC___25.5___1
Exhaust Centerline - ECL______114___114
Overlap ____________________54____5
Good Luck,
Last edited by SideStep; 04-05-2006 at 09:20 AM.
#12
How do I measure the deck height? thats a good idea...thanks
Also...how would I retard the cam 2 degrees (adjustable timing chain?)? I didnt really want to do this because I didnt want to rev the cam very high ( I want to shift around 6500)
Also...my clearance issues will be only if they were milled .036 correct? It shouldnt be a problem if they started at 59cc, since patriot adds to the chambers to increase compression.
Couldnt I have someone take some out of the chambes to lower my compression as well? SIDESTEP...if this will work what cc would you suggest for optimum output on pump gas...keeping the cam at a 112 plus 4??
I really appreciate the help guys
this is getting worse by the second.
Also...how would I retard the cam 2 degrees (adjustable timing chain?)? I didnt really want to do this because I didnt want to rev the cam very high ( I want to shift around 6500)
Also...my clearance issues will be only if they were milled .036 correct? It shouldnt be a problem if they started at 59cc, since patriot adds to the chambers to increase compression.
Couldnt I have someone take some out of the chambes to lower my compression as well? SIDESTEP...if this will work what cc would you suggest for optimum output on pump gas...keeping the cam at a 112 plus 4??
I really appreciate the help guys
this is getting worse by the second.
Last edited by UltraZLS1; 04-05-2006 at 09:46 AM.
#13
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
Check the deck height with whatever youve got handy. A surface plate and height gauge, a micrometer, even vernier calipers would work.
You need an adjustable timing chain to advance or retard the cam timing. Retarding will only make the powerband higher inthe rpm range. You want to advance the cam to bring the power band down.
Yes, if theyre not milled, you shouldnt have clearance issues.
You need an adjustable timing chain to advance or retard the cam timing. Retarding will only make the powerband higher inthe rpm range. You want to advance the cam to bring the power band down.
Yes, if theyre not milled, you shouldnt have clearance issues.
Originally Posted by UltraZLS1
How do I measure the deck height? thats a good idea...thanks
Also...how would I retard the cam 2 degrees (adjustable timing chain?)? I didnt really want to do this because I didnt want to rev the cam very high ( I want to shift around 6500)
Also...my clearance issues will be only if they were milled .036 correct? It shouldnt be a problem if they started at 59cc, since patriot adds to the chambers to increase compression.
Couldnt I have someone take some out of the chambes to lower my compression as well? SIDESTEP...if this will work what cc would you suggest for optimum output on pump gas...keeping the cam at a 112 plus 4??
I really appreciate the help guys
this is getting worse by the second.
Also...how would I retard the cam 2 degrees (adjustable timing chain?)? I didnt really want to do this because I didnt want to rev the cam very high ( I want to shift around 6500)
Also...my clearance issues will be only if they were milled .036 correct? It shouldnt be a problem if they started at 59cc, since patriot adds to the chambers to increase compression.
Couldnt I have someone take some out of the chambes to lower my compression as well? SIDESTEP...if this will work what cc would you suggest for optimum output on pump gas...keeping the cam at a 112 plus 4??
I really appreciate the help guys
this is getting worse by the second.
#14
Originally Posted by UltraZLS1
How do I measure the deck height? thats a good idea...thanks
Also...how would I retard the cam 2 degrees (adjustable timing chain?)? I didnt really want to do this because I didnt want to rev the cam very high ( I want to shift around 6500)
Also...my clearance issues will be only if they were milled .036 correct? It shouldnt be a problem if they started at 59cc, since patriot adds to the chambers to increase compression.
Couldnt I have someone take some out of the chambes to lower my compression as well? SIDESTEP...if this will work what cc would you suggest for optimum output on pump gas...keeping the cam at a 112 plus 4??
I really appreciate the help guys
this is getting worse by the second.
Also...how would I retard the cam 2 degrees (adjustable timing chain?)? I didnt really want to do this because I didnt want to rev the cam very high ( I want to shift around 6500)
Also...my clearance issues will be only if they were milled .036 correct? It shouldnt be a problem if they started at 59cc, since patriot adds to the chambers to increase compression.
Couldnt I have someone take some out of the chambes to lower my compression as well? SIDESTEP...if this will work what cc would you suggest for optimum output on pump gas...keeping the cam at a 112 plus 4??
I really appreciate the help guys
this is getting worse by the second.
Yes you would use an ajustable timing chain to retard the cam...
As far as taking material out of the chambers shoot for 61-62 cc (8.7 - 8.59 DCR), good luck...
You mods would equal:
CC__DCR
61__8.7
62__8.59
63__8.49
64__8.38
65__8.28
Last edited by SideStep; 04-05-2006 at 09:58 AM.
#15
Is taking material out a bad idea? or would it probably be costly and time consuming?
I might just sell these things now, and my car is entirely tore down...oh man.
Where exactly do I measure the deck height (from which point to which point)
I have a general idea but im not exactly sure where the deck is...im kind of a newbie when it comes to cylinder head stuff
A dcr of 8.7 is as high as one should go on pump gas I am assuming?
thanks again for the help, I would be screwed w/out you guys ( or more than I already am)
I might just sell these things now, and my car is entirely tore down...oh man.
Where exactly do I measure the deck height (from which point to which point)
I have a general idea but im not exactly sure where the deck is...im kind of a newbie when it comes to cylinder head stuff
A dcr of 8.7 is as high as one should go on pump gas I am assuming?
thanks again for the help, I would be screwed w/out you guys ( or more than I already am)
#16
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (8)
Originally Posted by UltraZLS1
Is taking material out a bad idea? or would it probably be costly and time consuming?
I might just sell these things now, and my car is entirely tore down...oh man.
Where exactly do I measure the deck height (from which point to which point)
I have a general idea but im not exactly sure where the deck is...im kind of a newbie when it comes to cylinder head stuff
A dcr of 8.7 is as high as one should go on pump gas I am assuming?
thanks again for the help, I would be screwed w/out you guys ( or more than I already am)
I might just sell these things now, and my car is entirely tore down...oh man.
Where exactly do I measure the deck height (from which point to which point)
I have a general idea but im not exactly sure where the deck is...im kind of a newbie when it comes to cylinder head stuff
A dcr of 8.7 is as high as one should go on pump gas I am assuming?
thanks again for the help, I would be screwed w/out you guys ( or more than I already am)
8.7 should be fine but I wouldn't go much more than that personally.
#18
Well I have some good news for once.
I measured them with a digital feeler gauge and came up with 4.74xx every time.
So theirs no way they have been milled .036. These must have been 59cc to start with correct?
I guess my next step would be to have the combustion chambers reduced ( take some out)? I am gonna want to put them right at 62cc. Im not feeling very lucky right now so im not gonna push it with 61.
Gunnar...have you guys ever had to do this? would it be a bad idea (hurt performance etc?) how much would it cost me? I figured if you guys add to the combustion to gain compression...you surely must know how to take some out effectively...and I would rather send them to you guys and have it done right...im done taking chances.
Let me know what you think
I feel a little bit better now...but it is still a PITA dealing with all this crap.
Im gonna have to thank you guys again...you really saved my ***.
I measured them with a digital feeler gauge and came up with 4.74xx every time.
So theirs no way they have been milled .036. These must have been 59cc to start with correct?
I guess my next step would be to have the combustion chambers reduced ( take some out)? I am gonna want to put them right at 62cc. Im not feeling very lucky right now so im not gonna push it with 61.
Gunnar...have you guys ever had to do this? would it be a bad idea (hurt performance etc?) how much would it cost me? I figured if you guys add to the combustion to gain compression...you surely must know how to take some out effectively...and I would rather send them to you guys and have it done right...im done taking chances.
Let me know what you think
I feel a little bit better now...but it is still a PITA dealing with all this crap.
Im gonna have to thank you guys again...you really saved my ***.
#19
Running through my search I have found a couple guys that pushed the envelope and ran a 9.0 DCR. Most said that a good tune could clear up most problems. slow trap is one of them that says he had a 9.0 DCR
Some other posts said that 8.8 was the limit.
hmmmm
Some other posts said that 8.8 was the limit.
hmmmm