my tuners OWN WAY OF TUNING
11-23-2008, 04:39 PM
#1
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my tuners OWN WAY OF TUNING well, im posting this to understand what the hell is going on, because I was gonna give him my TT car to tune, BUT NOT ANYMORE.
Anyways, He ROAD tuned my Cammed Z06, said he doesnt beleive in dyno-tuning (okay), and my butt told me the car was going fast, I lived with it for 2months before I got REALLY curious as to the power it put to the ground, so I went back to him, and on a mustang dyno the car put 445rwhp...
Dissapointment...
His Z06 with the same intake (vararam) and his tune did 441rwhp a few days before that, it is worth mentioning that few more pulls and my car did 453rwhp but that was it. He was laughing his *** off attributing the no difference in power to a **** cam that I installed and **** catless headers and exhaust. FYI, my car has a stage 3 LG camshaft, catless kooks headers and my custom exhaust.
This is when I asked to look at the AFR on the sheet, well guess what, my car was doing 10- 12:1 at sub 3000RPMS, and anything above that went to 10.2:1 from 3000 all the way to 7000 RPMs. When i asked why is it like that he said he substituted a leaner fuel mixture with more timing. Its also worth mentioning that the difference between the AFR measured on the tip is about 0.3 leaner than what is read at the collector (based on my previous experience with the same car). Which means my car was below 10:1 at the upper rpms.
I told him that I would bet on ANYTHING that there is at least 20 more rwhp in it, he said that im full of ****, and hes been tuning since 14 years, told me that I am humiliating him. I forced him to lean out the mixture UNDER MY RESPONSIBILITY so after he got all pissed off and started shouting his *** off, we started gaining more power run after run. Last run, I saw 10.9:1 on the AFR graph, although it was messed up for good car went to 478RWHP, thats a 25++ rwhp over the first tune and the car was still rich on back to back runs. If we allowed the car to cool down 480+ would have been there.
He refused to go leaner claiming that the wideband is a peice of **** that no one should rely on, and you should rely on the stock narrow bands more because they can do the same calculation and get the same reading
. basically how he calculates AFR is, he takes stoich (14.687 something like that) and divides it by the HPTuners Fuel Enrichment table value for that RPM, which might be 1.111 and gets the AFR.
Im sure we all noticed that this guy is full of ****, I need some feedback on this because im gonna send him the link =)
Anyways, He ROAD tuned my Cammed Z06, said he doesnt beleive in dyno-tuning (okay), and my butt told me the car was going fast, I lived with it for 2months before I got REALLY curious as to the power it put to the ground, so I went back to him, and on a mustang dyno the car put 445rwhp...
Dissapointment...
His Z06 with the same intake (vararam) and his tune did 441rwhp a few days before that, it is worth mentioning that few more pulls and my car did 453rwhp but that was it. He was laughing his *** off attributing the no difference in power to a **** cam that I installed and **** catless headers and exhaust. FYI, my car has a stage 3 LG camshaft, catless kooks headers and my custom exhaust.
This is when I asked to look at the AFR on the sheet, well guess what, my car was doing 10- 12:1 at sub 3000RPMS, and anything above that went to 10.2:1 from 3000 all the way to 7000 RPMs. When i asked why is it like that he said he substituted a leaner fuel mixture with more timing. Its also worth mentioning that the difference between the AFR measured on the tip is about 0.3 leaner than what is read at the collector (based on my previous experience with the same car). Which means my car was below 10:1 at the upper rpms.
I told him that I would bet on ANYTHING that there is at least 20 more rwhp in it, he said that im full of ****, and hes been tuning since 14 years, told me that I am humiliating him. I forced him to lean out the mixture UNDER MY RESPONSIBILITY so after he got all pissed off and started shouting his *** off, we started gaining more power run after run. Last run, I saw 10.9:1 on the AFR graph, although it was messed up for good car went to 478RWHP, thats a 25++ rwhp over the first tune and the car was still rich on back to back runs. If we allowed the car to cool down 480+ would have been there.
He refused to go leaner claiming that the wideband is a peice of **** that no one should rely on, and you should rely on the stock narrow bands more because they can do the same calculation and get the same reading
. basically how he calculates AFR is, he takes stoich (14.687 something like that) and divides it by the HPTuners Fuel Enrichment table value for that RPM, which might be 1.111 and gets the AFR.Im sure we all noticed that this guy is full of ****, I need some feedback on this because im gonna send him the link =)
Last edited by ayousef; 11-23-2008 at 11:18 PM.
11-23-2008, 05:06 PM
#2
I know there's 2 sides to every story, but if that's even close to true, he's an idiot, and an ******* to boot.
You cannot just swap increases in timing for a leaner fuel mixture. It doesn't work that way.
You would be better off with a stock timing table and 12.5:1 A/F. It would make more power than 10:1 and 4 degrees added. That's just random numbers mind you.
I have a passport and would be happy to fly over and tune your TT and your Z06 if the money's right.
You cannot just swap increases in timing for a leaner fuel mixture. It doesn't work that way.
You would be better off with a stock timing table and 12.5:1 A/F. It would make more power than 10:1 and 4 degrees added. That's just random numbers mind you.
I have a passport and would be happy to fly over and tune your TT and your Z06 if the money's right.
11-23-2008, 05:15 PM
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I know there's 2 sides to every story, but if that's even close to true, he's an idiot, and an ******* to boot.
You cannot just swap increases in timing for a leaner fuel mixture. It doesn't work that way.
You would be better off with a stock timing table and 12.5:1 A/F. It would make more power than 10:1 and 4 degrees added. That's just random numbers mind you.
I have a passport and would be happy to fly over and tune your TT and your Z06 if the money's right.
You cannot just swap increases in timing for a leaner fuel mixture. It doesn't work that way.
You would be better off with a stock timing table and 12.5:1 A/F. It would make more power than 10:1 and 4 degrees added. That's just random numbers mind you.
I have a passport and would be happy to fly over and tune your TT and your Z06 if the money's right.
His argument is, you get 70% of the power by timing and a mere 30% by leaning out the AFR, also given the fact that the car would be safer it being Richer...
Well, about tuning my car haha, we got so many tuners and infact my friend is a VERY good tuner, however because of some contruction work he closed his shop for a month, and this is when I tuned mine elsewhere...
11-23-2008, 09:38 PM
#5
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LOL at the wideband being a shitty tool to measure AF ratio. Guess thats why racing teams dump all that money into buying them and tuning with them. If only I would have read this sooner I could have saved some bucks buying my shitty wideband .... LOL. Street tuning has it's place and so does dyno tuning. IMO it's a little safer to be on a dyno doing 100+ mph then on the streets but what do I know. Street is for getting good drivability and even fueling on real driving conditions but dyno gets you the WOT portion and the power. He sounds like a winner (lots of sarcasm in that last statement).
11-24-2008, 09:33 AM
#6
Launching!
I'm considering coming to Dubai to teach a week long calibration class next year. Perhaps there's more need for training there than I had anticipated. One just wonders if people are just too proud to learn sometimes for fear of looking foolish. Even the OEM calibrators (like me) are continuously learning.
11-24-2008, 10:44 AM
#7
well, im posting this to understand what the hell is going on, because I was gonna give him my TT car to tune, BUT NOT ANYMORE.
Anyways, He ROAD tuned my Cammed Z06, said he doesnt beleive in dyno-tuning (okay), and my butt told me the car was going fast, I lived with it for 2months before I got REALLY curious as to the power it put to the ground, so I went back to him, and on a mustang dyno the car put 445rwhp...
Dissapointment...
His Z06 with the same intake (vararam) and his tune did 441rwhp a few days before that, it is worth mentioning that few more pulls and my car did 453rwhp but that was it. He was laughing his *** off attributing the no difference in power to a **** cam that I installed and **** catless headers and exhaust. FYI, my car has a stage 3 LG camshaft, catless kooks headers and my custom exhaust.
This is when I asked to look at the AFR on the sheet, well guess what, my car was doing 10- 12:1 at sub 3000RPMS, and anything above that went to 10.2:1 from 3000 all the way to 7000 RPMs. When i asked why is it like that he said he substituted a leaner fuel mixture with more timing. Its also worth mentioning that the difference between the AFR measured on the tip is about 0.3 leaner than what is read at the collector (based on my previous experience with the same car). Which means my car was below 10:1 at the upper rpms.
I told him that I would bet on ANYTHING that there is at least 20 more rwhp in it, he said that im full of ****, and hes been tuning since 14 years, told me that I am humiliating him. I forced him to lean out the mixture UNDER MY RESPONSIBILITY so after he got all pissed off and started shouting his *** off, we started gaining more power run after run. Last run, I saw 10.9:1 on the AFR graph, although it was messed up for good car went to 478RWHP, thats a 25++ rwhp over the first tune and the car was still rich on back to back runs. If we allowed the car to cool down 480+ would have been there.
He refused to go leaner claiming that the wideband is a peice of **** that no one should rely on, and you should rely on the stock narrow bands more because they can do the same calculation and get the same reading . basically how he calculates AFR is, he takes stoich (14.687 something like that) and divides it by the HPTuners Fuel Enrichment table value for that RPM, which might be 1.111 and gets the AFR.
Im sure we all noticed that this guy is full of ****, I need some feedback on this because im gonna send him the link =)
Anyways, He ROAD tuned my Cammed Z06, said he doesnt beleive in dyno-tuning (okay), and my butt told me the car was going fast, I lived with it for 2months before I got REALLY curious as to the power it put to the ground, so I went back to him, and on a mustang dyno the car put 445rwhp...
Dissapointment...
His Z06 with the same intake (vararam) and his tune did 441rwhp a few days before that, it is worth mentioning that few more pulls and my car did 453rwhp but that was it. He was laughing his *** off attributing the no difference in power to a **** cam that I installed and **** catless headers and exhaust. FYI, my car has a stage 3 LG camshaft, catless kooks headers and my custom exhaust.
This is when I asked to look at the AFR on the sheet, well guess what, my car was doing 10- 12:1 at sub 3000RPMS, and anything above that went to 10.2:1 from 3000 all the way to 7000 RPMs. When i asked why is it like that he said he substituted a leaner fuel mixture with more timing. Its also worth mentioning that the difference between the AFR measured on the tip is about 0.3 leaner than what is read at the collector (based on my previous experience with the same car). Which means my car was below 10:1 at the upper rpms.
I told him that I would bet on ANYTHING that there is at least 20 more rwhp in it, he said that im full of ****, and hes been tuning since 14 years, told me that I am humiliating him. I forced him to lean out the mixture UNDER MY RESPONSIBILITY so after he got all pissed off and started shouting his *** off, we started gaining more power run after run. Last run, I saw 10.9:1 on the AFR graph, although it was messed up for good car went to 478RWHP, thats a 25++ rwhp over the first tune and the car was still rich on back to back runs. If we allowed the car to cool down 480+ would have been there.
He refused to go leaner claiming that the wideband is a peice of **** that no one should rely on, and you should rely on the stock narrow bands more because they can do the same calculation and get the same reading
. basically how he calculates AFR is, he takes stoich (14.687 something like that) and divides it by the HPTuners Fuel Enrichment table value for that RPM, which might be 1.111 and gets the AFR.Im sure we all noticed that this guy is full of ****, I need some feedback on this because im gonna send him the link =)
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11-24-2008, 12:29 PM
#10
FormerVendor
Hopefully whoever you use now has a very good understanding of what he's doing otherwise you're going to have some real trouble (even with my file to start from).
11-25-2008, 12:25 AM
#12
Sounds like a tuner I delt with. He bitched about my EFI Live and called it **** and said a wideband is a joke. My car was way lean like 13.5 to 13.9 at wot. I done some changes myself and got the afr down to 12.5 to 12.8 I don't want to say on the public forum who I delt with but it sounds like the same guy I had.
11-25-2008, 09:59 AM
#16
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I wont be offended by saying something thats true 
if calculating the AFR was as simple as dividing stoich by the fuel enrichment table, then the ECU will do that simple division for you and every car will be able to read its own wideband AFR accordingly.
According to his calculation my car is at 13.2:1 (14.7/ 1.111), yet the wideband says im at 10.8:1
if calculating the AFR was as simple as dividing stoich by the fuel enrichment table, then the ECU will do that simple division for you and every car will be able to read its own wideband AFR accordingly.
According to his calculation my car is at 13.2:1 (14.7/ 1.111), yet the wideband says im at 10.8:1
11-25-2008, 10:01 AM
#17
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He should be able to get the job done, the base file would be 70% of the job, and hell have to fine tune the rest, no issues there.
Thanks alot
11-25-2008, 09:18 PM
#18
I wont be offended by saying something thats true
if calculating the AFR was as simple as dividing stoich by the fuel enrichment table, then the ECU will do that simple division for you and every car will be able to read its own wideband AFR accordingly.
According to his calculation my car is at 13.2:1 (14.7/ 1.111), yet the wideband says im at 10.8:1
if calculating the AFR was as simple as dividing stoich by the fuel enrichment table, then the ECU will do that simple division for you and every car will be able to read its own wideband AFR accordingly.
According to his calculation my car is at 13.2:1 (14.7/ 1.111), yet the wideband says im at 10.8:1
The last tuner I used (notice I said LAST) would read the wideband AFR and just enter a PE value what would accomplish his desired AFR (12.8-13.3) but the commanded would be 11.7-12.1:1. This is probably what often happens on a quick WOT dynotune. Though, that method works perfectly fine for WOT, it does nothing for part throttle nor is it the correct way to go about tuning.
My car is only a minor bolt-on car and isn't far enough off from the stock calibrations to really affect anything other than WOT.
Jon
11-25-2008, 09:27 PM
#19
The stock narrowed bands are completely accurate, but only at 14.7:1 AFR. Any other AFR makes them completely useless.
11-25-2008, 10:02 PM
#20
"Stock narrowband O2 sensor is highly accurate at stoichiometric, but is only accurate enough outside of that to indicate that the mixture is simply richer or leaner than 14.7 and unable to provide accurate data as to how much it is rich or lean."
As for the OP.
Get another tuner, or just rent the dyno time and tune it yourself.