Help planning a possible AWD (LS powered, of course) Volvo build
11-02-2010, 08:30 PM
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Help planning a possible AWD (LS powered, of course) Volvo build Hey guys, first post here. I'll start off by saying I have no experience personally with LS motors, but, I am matthew20061's brother (he's the one with the copperhead '69 C10 with a 5.3, soon to be a LQ9) so I've experienced the power of the LS motors haha. Right now I'm building a '73 VW Super Beetle (no motor swap on that, it's VW powered, period) but It'll probably be done by the end of winter and already the next project is brewing in my head.
Alright so lets start at the beginning of my story here, I live in Alaska, so nearly everyone drives a truck. This makes me not like trucks because there are far to many of them and besides, it's not practical at all. Although they are wonderful to work on. But that said, you need four wheel or all wheel drive. Well that leaves me with pretty much two options, an Audi or a Subaru. But if I bought an Audi, it's nearly impossible to work on, and parts are insanely expensive. If I bought a Subaru I'd have to get a german sheperd and start eating granola (If you know what I mean). So that leaves me with one last car as a 4WD/AWD CAR option... The AMC Eagle. I tried it. Didn't work, way to clunky. So now I have a 99 S10, which is pretty much a car with all the usefulness removed (nice ride, space inside, enclosed storage). But the one thing the S10 does have is selectable 4WD/RWD.
Now here's the problem, no offense, I know we're all Chevy guys here (at least I figure we are) but the S10 is not a good Chevy. The body has a horrid feel (although this is probably due to the fact that it's been hit in the front drivers side previously). The drivers door you have to slam and the door panel is coming off in my hands. This is partially my fault because the door is from the older style interior and one of the door handle screws is missing. But even the passengers door squeaks and is just lame, lame, lame. The center console is loose, Ok so the one bolt that holds it down is broke, but even if it wasn't the console's door would still be as floppy as it is. The shifting is just terrible, the self adjusting hydro clutch is always grabbing, making gear changes mushy and stiff, reverse just grinds. Alright, so I might be able to live with all these things if it wasn't for one thing that's just the icing on the cake. It is the absolute hardest thing to work on, albeit, I haven't worked on many cars, I could probably list them all on one page, but even the AMC's rats nest of vacuum hoses would be more fun to sort through than the tranny pull I had to do!! I had to take the exhaust, t-case (well, of course...), cab bolts, shifter, all loose to get the damn thing out. I should note when I say cab bolts, that means yes I had to drop the tranny down so it's twisting the engine back on it's mounts, then jack up the whole cab (sort've just jamming it up with the rest of the body) to get to the bellhousing bolts. This is the recommended method for doing it.
Now enter the Volvo. There's a kid at school who just recently started driving. His car is an '88 Volvo 240 sedan. It has 250,000 miles on it (my S10 has 150k) and the drivers door feels like a swiss watch when you close it. That's 38 years of door slamming and it's perfect, my S10 is squeaky at just 11 years. This kid let me drive his car and let me tell you, everything I touched felt solid, nothing was loose, even the shifting was worlds above my S10 (although the clutch was really worn out and out of adjustment). My aunt also has an old 240 and it's the same story there. Problem with the volvo is it has no power and is rear wheel drive.
If you don't care about the prefacing story, just to skip here....
So this got me thinking what If I could swap a 5.3 or perhaps LQ9 and an AWD setup into an 80's volvo 240. The motor wouldn't be too hard to get or swap in with just RWD, but I live in Alaska and this would be a build with the goal of ending up with a solid daily driver. So I need 4WD or AWD.
Here's where you guys come in. What kind of MANUAL (I am definitely not going to have an automatic to slush around with) could take the power of the 5.3 or 6.0 and still be compact enough to fit under the car while bolting up to a transfer case. Also, I know people have done this swap (with just RWD though) and I wonder how much room there would be to fit a differential (and it's connecting drive shaft) into the front cross member (obviously there would be fabrication involved). I was thinking for front suspension I could modify the control arms to accept the ball joints from an Oldsmobile Aroura parts car we just happen to have in my yard, and of course the upper strut mounts. Then It'd just be a case of connecting the cvs, which I could take from the aroura, unless they need to be of a different length or have a different flange on the diff side.
Thanks for looking and reading, I'll keep you updated. If this project ever does come to happen I will definitely start a build thread. Or just update this tread. In the meantime I'll be looking at all the other fun swaps around here (I really like the LS powered Audi haha)
Alright so lets start at the beginning of my story here, I live in Alaska, so nearly everyone drives a truck. This makes me not like trucks because there are far to many of them and besides, it's not practical at all. Although they are wonderful to work on. But that said, you need four wheel or all wheel drive. Well that leaves me with pretty much two options, an Audi or a Subaru. But if I bought an Audi, it's nearly impossible to work on, and parts are insanely expensive. If I bought a Subaru I'd have to get a german sheperd and start eating granola (If you know what I mean). So that leaves me with one last car as a 4WD/AWD CAR option... The AMC Eagle. I tried it. Didn't work, way to clunky. So now I have a 99 S10, which is pretty much a car with all the usefulness removed (nice ride, space inside, enclosed storage). But the one thing the S10 does have is selectable 4WD/RWD.
Now here's the problem, no offense, I know we're all Chevy guys here (at least I figure we are) but the S10 is not a good Chevy. The body has a horrid feel (although this is probably due to the fact that it's been hit in the front drivers side previously). The drivers door you have to slam and the door panel is coming off in my hands. This is partially my fault because the door is from the older style interior and one of the door handle screws is missing. But even the passengers door squeaks and is just lame, lame, lame. The center console is loose, Ok so the one bolt that holds it down is broke, but even if it wasn't the console's door would still be as floppy as it is. The shifting is just terrible, the self adjusting hydro clutch is always grabbing, making gear changes mushy and stiff, reverse just grinds. Alright, so I might be able to live with all these things if it wasn't for one thing that's just the icing on the cake. It is the absolute hardest thing to work on, albeit, I haven't worked on many cars, I could probably list them all on one page, but even the AMC's rats nest of vacuum hoses would be more fun to sort through than the tranny pull I had to do!! I had to take the exhaust, t-case (well, of course...), cab bolts, shifter, all loose to get the damn thing out. I should note when I say cab bolts, that means yes I had to drop the tranny down so it's twisting the engine back on it's mounts, then jack up the whole cab (sort've just jamming it up with the rest of the body) to get to the bellhousing bolts. This is the recommended method for doing it.
Now enter the Volvo. There's a kid at school who just recently started driving. His car is an '88 Volvo 240 sedan. It has 250,000 miles on it (my S10 has 150k) and the drivers door feels like a swiss watch when you close it. That's 38 years of door slamming and it's perfect, my S10 is squeaky at just 11 years. This kid let me drive his car and let me tell you, everything I touched felt solid, nothing was loose, even the shifting was worlds above my S10 (although the clutch was really worn out and out of adjustment). My aunt also has an old 240 and it's the same story there. Problem with the volvo is it has no power and is rear wheel drive.
If you don't care about the prefacing story, just to skip here....
So this got me thinking what If I could swap a 5.3 or perhaps LQ9 and an AWD setup into an 80's volvo 240. The motor wouldn't be too hard to get or swap in with just RWD, but I live in Alaska and this would be a build with the goal of ending up with a solid daily driver. So I need 4WD or AWD.
Here's where you guys come in. What kind of MANUAL (I am definitely not going to have an automatic to slush around with) could take the power of the 5.3 or 6.0 and still be compact enough to fit under the car while bolting up to a transfer case. Also, I know people have done this swap (with just RWD though) and I wonder how much room there would be to fit a differential (and it's connecting drive shaft) into the front cross member (obviously there would be fabrication involved). I was thinking for front suspension I could modify the control arms to accept the ball joints from an Oldsmobile Aroura parts car we just happen to have in my yard, and of course the upper strut mounts. Then It'd just be a case of connecting the cvs, which I could take from the aroura, unless they need to be of a different length or have a different flange on the diff side.
Thanks for looking and reading, I'll keep you updated. If this project ever does come to happen I will definitely start a build thread. Or just update this tread. In the meantime I'll be looking at all the other fun swaps around here (I really like the LS powered Audi haha)
11-03-2010, 01:49 PM
#2
I'm going to jump in on this with a few questions/observations...
1. There are quite a few other AWD cars you're ignoring (Mitsubishi, BMW, Mercedes and others). Any reason why?
2. It sounds like you're in high school (or college). That generally leads to a fair assumption that this is going to be budget conscious. What is your realistic budget?
3. What is your level of skill working on cars? No offense, but it sounds like you've done very little research, beyond saying to yourself "this sounds like a great idea!". The statement about using the Olds parts up front makes me think you've not done a lot of fabrication work.
Okay, now that those are asked, I'll ignore them completely and address the rest of your post. AWD manual transmissions are pretty limited, especially those that are setup for a front engine, rear drive car. Subaru comes to mind, as well as Nissan, but either of those are going to be HUGE money for a transmission that is capable of taking the power (Impreza STi and Nissan Skyline off hand), not to mention the cost of adapting the transmission to the engine. Automatics exist more plentifully, and the Olds Bravada setup could possibly be made to work, and isn't particularly expensive to source.
Next up, you are wanting to convert a RWD car to AWD. Can it be done? Certainly, is it practical? No. You'd have a lot easier time making the S10 nice then you would making a Volvo 240 AWD.
Beyond that, the vehicle you end up with is going to likely lose a great deal of the "quality build" level that you're after, just by nature of the massive modification required. You CAN get that back, but it requires a large investment of time, and a great deal of skill (both of those can be offset with enough money).
I'm not trying to crap on your idea, rather, just emphasize the scope of what you're talking about. I would consider something like this on the edge of my own skill set, and I've done quite a bit of custom fabrication and design myself.
If you want something with that level of power, AWD and at least decent build quality, I'd look for a used Subaru STi. I'm not sure about dogs and granola, but those are damned impressive cars, even bone stock.
You asked for opinions there ya go.
-Blake
1. There are quite a few other AWD cars you're ignoring (Mitsubishi, BMW, Mercedes and others). Any reason why?
2. It sounds like you're in high school (or college). That generally leads to a fair assumption that this is going to be budget conscious. What is your realistic budget?
3. What is your level of skill working on cars? No offense, but it sounds like you've done very little research, beyond saying to yourself "this sounds like a great idea!". The statement about using the Olds parts up front makes me think you've not done a lot of fabrication work.
Okay, now that those are asked, I'll ignore them completely and address the rest of your post. AWD manual transmissions are pretty limited, especially those that are setup for a front engine, rear drive car. Subaru comes to mind, as well as Nissan, but either of those are going to be HUGE money for a transmission that is capable of taking the power (Impreza STi and Nissan Skyline off hand), not to mention the cost of adapting the transmission to the engine. Automatics exist more plentifully, and the Olds Bravada setup could possibly be made to work, and isn't particularly expensive to source.
Next up, you are wanting to convert a RWD car to AWD. Can it be done? Certainly, is it practical? No. You'd have a lot easier time making the S10 nice then you would making a Volvo 240 AWD.
Beyond that, the vehicle you end up with is going to likely lose a great deal of the "quality build" level that you're after, just by nature of the massive modification required. You CAN get that back, but it requires a large investment of time, and a great deal of skill (both of those can be offset with enough money).
I'm not trying to crap on your idea, rather, just emphasize the scope of what you're talking about. I would consider something like this on the edge of my own skill set, and I've done quite a bit of custom fabrication and design myself.
If you want something with that level of power, AWD and at least decent build quality, I'd look for a used Subaru STi. I'm not sure about dogs and granola, but those are damned impressive cars, even bone stock.
You asked for opinions there ya go.
-Blake
11-03-2010, 04:07 PM
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Well I have had experience with fabrication. Nothing on this scale, but I can cut and weld perfectly fine. And just forget the S10. I am 100 percent not interested in it. It's not just the door, it's everywhere I turn I find another thing that I hate. It's mainly though the whole philosophy of the thing, the Volvo's purpose was to be a high quality safe car that's attainable to average folks. The S10 is a cheap truck designed to be mass produced and to offer some level of comfort.
As for the other cars, I want something simple, AWD, not a transverse mounted engine, and easy to work on. The Subaru isn't going to happen, especially not an STi (I do concede though, those are very nice cars).
Now as for money, yeah, I'm a high school senior, so there is a limited budget (hence I can't just waltz out and buy an STi or an Audi). I would probably have money from the sale of the S10, so probably around $4000.
And for knowledge, I've done plenty of research and this is part of it. The whole project is still in the future, so it's not like I'm jumping in with the cutting torch blazing and the mind resting. But likewise, I've drawn dead ends like digitalsolo, there aren't a lot of trannys that seem to offer what I want. There is one guy I saw who put a T-56 in a GMC Syclone, but he had to completely fabricate the tailhousing to accept a T-case (which of course is beyond me!). I'm thinking my best bet is an S10 T-5 with the s10 front diff and t-case (pretty much an S10 drivetrain, sans engine) behind a mild 5.3. And obviously I'd have to make sure front and rear gear ratios match, and if the volvo's rear end won't work (I can't swap front gears or rear gears to get them to match) then I could always swap in the S10 piece. I know it's kind of confusing with all these S10 parts and me hating the thing, but the earlier T-5 is a whole different animal than the NV3500 that's in my truck (which I hate). Also, I envision buying a parts truck to get all this stuff off, perhaps something wrecked or rusty, or just thrashed and cheap. The Volvo isn't too hard to find although they retain their value unfortunately (for me) well!
So maybe I'll post a wanted ad for one with a blown engine or something once I decide if this project is feasible or not.
As for the other cars, I want something simple, AWD, not a transverse mounted engine, and easy to work on. The Subaru isn't going to happen, especially not an STi (I do concede though, those are very nice cars).
Now as for money, yeah, I'm a high school senior, so there is a limited budget (hence I can't just waltz out and buy an STi or an Audi). I would probably have money from the sale of the S10, so probably around $4000.
And for knowledge, I've done plenty of research and this is part of it. The whole project is still in the future, so it's not like I'm jumping in with the cutting torch blazing and the mind resting. But likewise, I've drawn dead ends like digitalsolo, there aren't a lot of trannys that seem to offer what I want. There is one guy I saw who put a T-56 in a GMC Syclone, but he had to completely fabricate the tailhousing to accept a T-case (which of course is beyond me!). I'm thinking my best bet is an S10 T-5 with the s10 front diff and t-case (pretty much an S10 drivetrain, sans engine) behind a mild 5.3. And obviously I'd have to make sure front and rear gear ratios match, and if the volvo's rear end won't work (I can't swap front gears or rear gears to get them to match) then I could always swap in the S10 piece. I know it's kind of confusing with all these S10 parts and me hating the thing, but the earlier T-5 is a whole different animal than the NV3500 that's in my truck (which I hate). Also, I envision buying a parts truck to get all this stuff off, perhaps something wrecked or rusty, or just thrashed and cheap. The Volvo isn't too hard to find although they retain their value unfortunately (for me) well!
So maybe I'll post a wanted ad for one with a blown engine or something once I decide if this project is feasible or not.
11-03-2010, 04:49 PM
#5
You could install an Audi S4 transmission from the '01-02 cars. 6 speed manual, can hold around 600hp stock, engine would need to sit pretty far forward to work. Lots of fabrication work. Custom parts $$$$
You would need custom axles to mate the S4 inners to Volvo outers. Plan on $1K right there I would imagine.
Other than that.... you are in for a pretty fun car. Install a Ford 8.8" rear end and you are good to go with custom driveshaft. Either Cobra IRS unit or a solid axle from an Explorer (disc brakes) or a Mustang.
For $4K budget don't make it AWD. You don't have enuf money.
You would need custom axles to mate the S4 inners to Volvo outers. Plan on $1K right there I would imagine.
Other than that.... you are in for a pretty fun car. Install a Ford 8.8" rear end and you are good to go with custom driveshaft. Either Cobra IRS unit or a solid axle from an Explorer (disc brakes) or a Mustang.
For $4K budget don't make it AWD. You don't have enuf money.
11-03-2010, 05:38 PM
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Well it's AWD or go home. Because the idea is to have a car I can keep for ever and won't feel like I'm just throwing money (and getting pissed off) at a lost cause maintaining it. And I have to have AWD in the winter here, RWD+Snow (especially in my driveway) equals one stuck car.
11-03-2010, 05:54 PM
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I don't mean to discourage, but $4,000 wouldn't be enough to get this done. To have something you'd be proud of, a custom 1 off AWD LS Volvo, unless you can fabricate just about all of your parts, adapters, and drive train.... I'd say you are more realistically looking at $8,000+ and that's conservative.
Refreshing a motor and purchasing an AWD capable transmission/transfer case + harness would consume the $4,000 alone.
Refreshing a motor and purchasing an AWD capable transmission/transfer case + harness would consume the $4,000 alone.
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11-03-2010, 06:16 PM
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Why not just put a Gen III in the S10? It's 4WD so that right there is an advantage, you have the motor mounts higher up on the frame than a 2WD model. The awesome thing about having an S10 is that they you can probably find 10 at any junkyard, and most likely whatever part you need for it will be there.
11-03-2010, 08:36 PM
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Depends on how you want to do the motor. For my application all parts would be junkyard "fresh". I figure I could get a motor for around $500-$800. A donor S10 with a T-5 could probably be had for around the same. A volvo that needs a motor would probably be less than a grand. That leaves me at roughly $3000 for parts. I'm not really looking for random numbers thrown out. I'm looking for information more like "Such and such car has a such and such tranny that will go behind a 5.3 and take the power, they can be had for roughly x-amount of money." Also, 01cherryreds10, I realize you have S10 in your name, so obviously you must be a fan, but I'm done with the S10.
11-03-2010, 08:59 PM
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Does anyone know if the Colorado manual trans from the v6 will work behind the 5.3? If it will, use that trans/transfer case in a s-10 chassis, I know, I know, read on. then when the engine, trans, transfer case, and 4 wheel drive is attached, roll the frame assembly under the Volvo. I checked car-part, the trans is $400.00. Good luck. Sounds like a cool idea, but also a money pit.
11-03-2010, 11:57 PM
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I believe those use an Asian pattern on the bellhosing that wouldn't bolt up to a V8. Otherwise, that sounds like a great idea. Hmmmm, maybe I could just do an inline 5 or 6....
haha
11-05-2010, 07:54 AM
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so, after reading all the way through, It seems that you have an S10, dislike it 100%, want a vovlo AWD LS V8, want it for $4k. The build will be more like $15-$25K to get your fit and finish (safe reliable car as you stated) you are looing for. You didn't like any of the "horrid" S10 yet right off you want to use the whole drive train which is most of the issues with these trucks. bad hubs, ball joints, weal rear diffs, small brakes etc.
If you want an AWD LS based car then I think it would be easier to start with an impala SS. The trans is a 4T65E. Same trans (different case) as the AWD equinox, rendezvous, etc. use the transfer case and output parts from one of theose into an SS trans case. run a shaft back, and fab a rear end. You could use a GTO rear suspension set up. Less fab in the long run than trying to fab everything to fit. just my $.02
If you want an AWD LS based car then I think it would be easier to start with an impala SS. The trans is a 4T65E. Same trans (different case) as the AWD equinox, rendezvous, etc. use the transfer case and output parts from one of theose into an SS trans case. run a shaft back, and fab a rear end. You could use a GTO rear suspension set up. Less fab in the long run than trying to fab everything to fit. just my $.02
11-05-2010, 11:23 AM
#15
An Audi transmission is probably the way to go. It may be cheaper, easier and less expensive to find a 5spd Audi with a blown motor and swap in the LS. I think thats the only way you're going to be able to keep it within budget. If you can do the swap, you can maintain an Audi.
$2k for the Audi, $800 for the LS, $1200 for the swap parts.
$2k for the Audi, $800 for the LS, $1200 for the swap parts.
11-05-2010, 12:26 PM
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If you like the idea of a Volvo why not a used v70 R or a S60 R?
Turbocharged 2.5L inline-5, 300 hp and AWD
If you sell your s10 it would be a nice down payment on a reliable car that will get you back and forth to school.
Turbocharged 2.5L inline-5, 300 hp and AWD
If you sell your s10 it would be a nice down payment on a reliable car that will get you back and forth to school.
11-05-2010, 01:40 PM
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so, after reading all the way through, It seems that you have an S10, dislike it 100%, want a vovlo AWD LS V8, want it for $4k. The build will be more like $15-$25K to get your fit and finish (safe reliable car as you stated) you are looing for. You didn't like any of the "horrid" S10 yet right off you want to use the whole drive train which is most of the issues with these trucks. bad hubs, ball joints, weal rear diffs, small brakes etc.
If you want an AWD LS based car then I think it would be easier to start with an impala SS. The trans is a 4T65E. Same trans (different case) as the AWD equinox, rendezvous, etc. use the transfer case and output parts from one of theose into an SS trans case. run a shaft back, and fab a rear end. You could use a GTO rear suspension set up. Less fab in the long run than trying to fab everything to fit. just my $.02
If you want an AWD LS based car then I think it would be easier to start with an impala SS. The trans is a 4T65E. Same trans (different case) as the AWD equinox, rendezvous, etc. use the transfer case and output parts from one of theose into an SS trans case. run a shaft back, and fab a rear end. You could use a GTO rear suspension set up. Less fab in the long run than trying to fab everything to fit. just my $.02
11-05-2010, 04:00 PM
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Please don't take this the wrong way but it seems like you are brushing off people's comments because its not what you want to hear. A lot of people on the board speak from experience and not just to try to discourage you.
It's either going to be cheap, fast or reliable. you can pick two.
This is not to say it can't be done but with your constraints it might be difficult.
Whatever you decide, keep us updated and post lots of pictures.
Have you looked into putting a newer model Volvo AWD drive train +LS engine into an older Volvo body style?
http://www.streetfire.net/video/twin...-7-l_84833.htm
11-05-2010, 04:17 PM
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Yeah, now I hear you on the brushing there comments off. But they don't really specify anything, if they said "you're forgetting bla bla bla which costs expensive dollars" but they don't. They just say it's going to be expensive. Right now as I laid it out it was a 1000 dollar leway. And by then (hopefully) I might have a job so that could pay some to. But that impala idea is intriguing. Ah but wait, that's an automatic only. Damn, that's no fun.