TCI 6x anyone use one?
04-23-2011, 07:52 PM
#1
TCI 6x anyone use one? I want to install a 4l80e in my 1966 Nova. I see TCI makes a 6 speed using the 4l80e case which would work as well. Has anyone bought or used one of these? Not sure the 6 speed gears would be good for me. It will be behind a twin turbo 408. Any thoughts, thanks.
04-24-2011, 12:51 AM
#2
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TCI 6X is rated as being able to handle 850 HP, and to my understanding it has a Limited Lifetime warranty if that HP rating is not exceeded. Per TCI there are a couple of cars running it that make 1,000 + HP.
Shop around and you can shave $500-$600 off TCI's MSRP.
6X is a true close ratio automatic transmission too, that can rival a manual trans in that respect.
With it's 2.93 1st gear, compared to the 4L80's 2.48 1st gear, you get more dig coming off the line with it.
It's close ratio gearing means less RPM loss between shifts so you can run a lower stall than with 4L80, and that might just help gas mileage a little too.
Also means you don't have to bang the gears with high line pressures to try and hold down RPM loss between shifts.
With it's 1.18 4th gear, it allows you to run a taller rear gear too without hurting you at track. Another gas saving benefit.
A 3.54 rear gear with the 6X's 1.18 4th gear will give you the same effective rear gear a 4L80 1:1 4th gear with a 4.17 rear end.
3.70 rear gear and you get effective 4th gear rear ratio of 4.366
3.90 rear gear and you get effective 4th gear rear ratio of 4.60
When comparing 6X 0.75 6th gear OD to say the 4L65's 0.70 4th OD, both with a 3.70 rear gear and 26.0" tall tire, the 0.75 6th gear OD will raise your engine cruise RPM by 166 RPM at 70 MPH over the 4L65 0.70 OD.
No. 1: TCI 6X (4L80E based)
2.97
2.23 -- 76.10% (high) RPM Retention -- 23.90% RPM DROP
1.57 -- 70.40% (high) RPM Retention -- 29.60% RPM DROP
1.18 -- 75.16% (high) RPM Retention -- 24.84% RPM DROP
1.00 -- 84.745% (high) RPM Retention -- 15.255% RPM DROP
0.75 -- 75.00% (high) RPM Retention -- 25.00% RPM DROP
No. 2: 6L80/90
4.03
2.36 -- 58.56% (high) RPM Retention 41.44% RPM DROP
1.53 -- 64.83% (high) RPM Retention 35.17% RPM DROP
1.15 -- 75.16% (high) RPM Retention 24.84% RPM DROP
0.852 -- 74.09% (high) RPM Retention 25.91% RPM DROP
No. 3: 4l80
2.48
1.48 -- 59.68% (high) RPM Retention 40.32% RPM DROP
1.00 -- 67.57% (high) RPM Retention 32.43% RPM DROP
No. 4: 4l65/70
3.06
1.62 -- 52.94% (high) RPM Retention 47.06% RPM DROP
1.00 -- 61.73% (high) RPM Retention 38.27% RPM DROP
The down side for a Pro Touring car like I have is it can't engine brake to go along with being able to manually down shift are up shifts when competing in auto-cross and road course events using paddles or button shifter. If you only compete in straight line racing competitions, that's not a problem.
From what some members have posted on cost of converting over to 4L80E in their car, your only looking at around $500-$600 difference in cost if you shop around for best price on 6X. The cost is about the same if you don't go with paddles or Outlaw shifter with buttons for manually shifting trans options. Plus you get a new rather than a rebuilt trans.
Last edited by poorhousenext; 05-01-2011 at 07:28 PM. Reason: correct 1st gear ratio
04-24-2011, 09:07 AM
#3
Great post! Lots of info. I do not plan on racing the car at all, if anything I will visit the strip and autocross course once or twice only. The car is a pro touring style but a nice weather driver. I will make long hauls so that is my interest in the OD. I plan on running 18" rims all around and have not thought of the rear gear yet. I have a 71 camaro running a TKO 600 which I believe the OD .64 and run 3:55 gears and it runs good on the highway.
04-28-2011, 04:37 PM
#6
ive heard of 2 horror stories (search im sure you will find them both) One was with a truck and tci replaced the trans like 4 or 5 times!
but then ive heard good stories like this one. It's still so new and so few people still havent tried it yet to have the real verdict on it yet.
Why is it you want the 6 speed? From what I was told when I researched it a built 4l60/80e can do pretty much everything the 6 speed can but with 2 less gears.
but then ive heard good stories like this one. It's still so new and so few people still havent tried it yet to have the real verdict on it yet.
Why is it you want the 6 speed? From what I was told when I researched it a built 4l60/80e can do pretty much everything the 6 speed can but with 2 less gears.
04-30-2011, 02:57 PM
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I've read one of the "Stories" posted by a Tuner about it hard shifting and he installed his final tune on the last one and destroyed the transmission.
In all cases he said even the TCI tunes shifted neck snapping hard too. But in all cases he thought TCI tunes were not as good as his tunes and replaced them. Were 5 different 6X transmissions bad? Hard to believe that. Could a bad TCM are wiring of TCM have been the problem.
Could it be the tuner didn't do his homework to see how the 1-5 gear spacing changed from normal 4L80 1-3 gear spacing he was use too. Could the problem be tuner didn't realized the 6X does not have the RPM lost between gear shifts as 4L80E has.
I know I wasn't aware of the this until recently. It's the reason I included that information in my post.
Seem the GM 6L80/90E transmission have the same lack of tuner knowledge with them also. With the close ratio gearing high line pressure is not needed to try and hold RPM lost between shift to minimum. I can see that would cause neck snapping hard shifts.
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04-30-2011, 09:07 PM
#8
I'm using the 6x...
I have nothing but good things to say about it..
I dont know why the other guy says he doesnt have engine braking, but I do...no problems
might be in the controller side of it.
I use the Older PCS/Redbox trans controller...
I can leave the TCC locked up above a certain speed and it will allow engine braking
I can tell it to unlock with brake input or by TPS, or I can tell it to only unlock if it goes below a certain speed... which is what I do.
I have it set to lock up above 50mph and unlock around 48..
I also have mine only locking up in 6th gear...but I'm certain I could have it lock up in lower gears if I wanted to... its really up to the torque converter as to if it can handle it of not...mine being a racing converter, is not really made to be an all the time lock up converter..
I know the EZ-TCU will unlock below 3% Throttle...no option to change it.
only one thing wrong that I see above... 1st gear is actually 2.97
I daily drive mine, with a very loose stall...
and I just trapped 11.2@121 MPH with a 1.6 60' spinning out of the hole and having to feather the gas to get it out without spin...
need some changes to the suspension and some slicks the next time out...
theres easily a 10.8..maybe even a 10.5 in my car on motor
I'm easily over 500 to the wheels and planning on an additional 500 in nitrous here later this year...
Just buy the Billet Input shaft and billet Clutch Hub... cheap upgrade and insurance and it makes it good to about 1200 HP.
if you break it with anything less than 600 to the wheels, you are doing something wrong and should not be driving a car to begin with.
customer support from TCI has been awesome.
when I bought the 6x I had originally talked to them about the redbox..in the time between my original conversation and when I was actually able to order it they changed to the EZ-TCU..
after several conversations with kevin87turbot(he works for TCI/Comp-Cams) he suggested I switch to the redbox style pcs controller.
My issue was the program for the 6x in the EZ TCU didnt work well for my huge stall and I needed a custom trans tune...
and you have to understand..my stall is a PY3600, but it stalls up to 4800..built very loose.
I actually use my Line pressures quite high.. I like it to snap me in half on a shift.. I dont want it to shift like an old Cadillac... though it can be made to shift so soft that you cant feel it at all...
I basically went as high as I could go without causing the pumps/solenoids to wear prematurely(I was told extended periods past a certain pressure would wear them out quickly and there was a fine line between a long life or replacing solenoids frequently... I was also told exactly where that line was...)
as far as problems go... there have only been a handful of real problems, and all of those problems have been addressed and fixed...
a lot of issues stem from user/installer errors... so when you see a post about a problem.. consider that the person posting may be trying to cover themselves and trying to make it look like they werent the idiot responsible.
the guy who destroyed 5 transmissions.. had to have been doing something very wrong and must not have had any understanding of how they work or how to set up a trans tune.
things to remember...
if you buy the outlaw shifter,
with the EZ-TCU you dont have a visual gear gauge to see what gear you are in unless you are looking at the EZ-TCU control box screen...
with the PCS style controller... it has a CAN Bus.. and you can buy an actual gauge pod digital gauge.. I just got one of the first ones that PCS makes.. brand new.. $300 plus shipping
I havent had a chance to put it in my car yet... it just showed up friday and I go out of town on tour for 8 weeks starting tomorrow...
also in any case.. I highly recommend you get a trans temp gauge from Autometer...
they make a shorty temperature sender(part #2259) that can go in the pressure port on the drivers side of the trans. and then you can place the gauge anywhere your little heart desires.
you dont necessarily need it, but its good insurance to know what temps you are actually at.
they send a dipstick with it, but for me it wasnt plausible to use for me.
the LS1 engine in our Fbody cars sits so far back under the cowl that the dipstick basically doesnt get to a spot where its useable..
I bought a LOKAR 36" dipstick for a 4L80.. works like a champ. gets my dipstick up by the front of the fuel rail on the passenger side of my engine
theres a handful of things to change with the 6x in the settings...
on the EZ TCU, theres a setting called 6x overlap, and you need to change the 5-upshift setting to 600(its default at 92).. its a setting for the release/application of the overdrive and gears...basically you will feel an odd side step shift sometimes unless you put this setting up to 600...
with the LS1 pcm you have to set the engine cylinders to 4cly...just the nature of our pcm tach signal in the LS1
its best to splice the VSS signal from the trans to your existing VSS connector for teh speedo and just make the tune reflect the proper amount of vss pulses (40 pulses per rev)
and to hit the last comment the last user made about the 6L80/90....
they dont hold a candle to the 6x....not in any way shape or form...
I have nothing but good things to say about it..
I dont know why the other guy says he doesnt have engine braking, but I do...no problems
might be in the controller side of it.
I use the Older PCS/Redbox trans controller...
I can leave the TCC locked up above a certain speed and it will allow engine braking
I can tell it to unlock with brake input or by TPS, or I can tell it to only unlock if it goes below a certain speed... which is what I do.
I have it set to lock up above 50mph and unlock around 48..
I also have mine only locking up in 6th gear...but I'm certain I could have it lock up in lower gears if I wanted to... its really up to the torque converter as to if it can handle it of not...mine being a racing converter, is not really made to be an all the time lock up converter..
I know the EZ-TCU will unlock below 3% Throttle...no option to change it.
only one thing wrong that I see above... 1st gear is actually 2.97
I daily drive mine, with a very loose stall...
and I just trapped 11.2@121 MPH with a 1.6 60' spinning out of the hole and having to feather the gas to get it out without spin...
need some changes to the suspension and some slicks the next time out...
theres easily a 10.8..maybe even a 10.5 in my car on motor
I'm easily over 500 to the wheels and planning on an additional 500 in nitrous here later this year...
Just buy the Billet Input shaft and billet Clutch Hub... cheap upgrade and insurance and it makes it good to about 1200 HP.
if you break it with anything less than 600 to the wheels, you are doing something wrong and should not be driving a car to begin with.
customer support from TCI has been awesome.
when I bought the 6x I had originally talked to them about the redbox..in the time between my original conversation and when I was actually able to order it they changed to the EZ-TCU..
after several conversations with kevin87turbot(he works for TCI/Comp-Cams) he suggested I switch to the redbox style pcs controller.
My issue was the program for the 6x in the EZ TCU didnt work well for my huge stall and I needed a custom trans tune...
and you have to understand..my stall is a PY3600, but it stalls up to 4800..built very loose.
I actually use my Line pressures quite high.. I like it to snap me in half on a shift.. I dont want it to shift like an old Cadillac... though it can be made to shift so soft that you cant feel it at all...
I basically went as high as I could go without causing the pumps/solenoids to wear prematurely(I was told extended periods past a certain pressure would wear them out quickly and there was a fine line between a long life or replacing solenoids frequently... I was also told exactly where that line was...)
as far as problems go... there have only been a handful of real problems, and all of those problems have been addressed and fixed...
a lot of issues stem from user/installer errors... so when you see a post about a problem.. consider that the person posting may be trying to cover themselves and trying to make it look like they werent the idiot responsible.
the guy who destroyed 5 transmissions.. had to have been doing something very wrong and must not have had any understanding of how they work or how to set up a trans tune.
things to remember...
if you buy the outlaw shifter,
with the EZ-TCU you dont have a visual gear gauge to see what gear you are in unless you are looking at the EZ-TCU control box screen...
with the PCS style controller... it has a CAN Bus.. and you can buy an actual gauge pod digital gauge.. I just got one of the first ones that PCS makes.. brand new.. $300 plus shipping
I havent had a chance to put it in my car yet... it just showed up friday and I go out of town on tour for 8 weeks starting tomorrow...
also in any case.. I highly recommend you get a trans temp gauge from Autometer...
they make a shorty temperature sender(part #2259) that can go in the pressure port on the drivers side of the trans. and then you can place the gauge anywhere your little heart desires.
you dont necessarily need it, but its good insurance to know what temps you are actually at.
they send a dipstick with it, but for me it wasnt plausible to use for me.
the LS1 engine in our Fbody cars sits so far back under the cowl that the dipstick basically doesnt get to a spot where its useable..
I bought a LOKAR 36" dipstick for a 4L80.. works like a champ. gets my dipstick up by the front of the fuel rail on the passenger side of my engine
theres a handful of things to change with the 6x in the settings...
on the EZ TCU, theres a setting called 6x overlap, and you need to change the 5-upshift setting to 600(its default at 92).. its a setting for the release/application of the overdrive and gears...basically you will feel an odd side step shift sometimes unless you put this setting up to 600...
with the LS1 pcm you have to set the engine cylinders to 4cly...just the nature of our pcm tach signal in the LS1
its best to splice the VSS signal from the trans to your existing VSS connector for teh speedo and just make the tune reflect the proper amount of vss pulses (40 pulses per rev)
and to hit the last comment the last user made about the 6L80/90....
they dont hold a candle to the 6x....not in any way shape or form...
Last edited by soundengineer; 04-30-2011 at 09:16 PM.
04-30-2011, 09:19 PM
#9
and edge....
more gears = less rpm drop between gears = staying in your powerband = better track ET and MPH
if you took a car with a 4l80 and swapped to the 6x, and did no other changes... it would run faster in the 1/4 mile and retain the exact same MPG in top gear on the highway using the 6x
more gears = less rpm drop between gears = staying in your powerband = better track ET and MPH
if you took a car with a 4l80 and swapped to the 6x, and did no other changes... it would run faster in the 1/4 mile and retain the exact same MPG in top gear on the highway using the 6x
04-30-2011, 10:15 PM
#10
Originally Posted by soundengineer
if you took a car with a 4l80 and swapped to the 6x, and did no other changes... it would run faster in the 1/4 mile and retain the exact same MPG in top gear on the highway using the 6x
More gears doesn't necessarily mean better ET's. The Powerglide is a good example of this.
04-30-2011, 10:36 PM
#11
you need a pretty big stall for a powerglide to be useful in most cases...one that centers you on your peak power for the entire 1/4 mile
2 gears is not a winner with a smaller stall like most people use in their daily driver car.
I would bet that 9 times out of 10, you would do better with a 6x assuming that you werent making so much power that you were braking the trans or the converter.
I know that a lot of people who go to a glide do it because they are making enough power to break most of everything else.
and again.. I didnt compare it to a glide...
I compared it to a 4l80..
more gears and less drop between gears will always net you a better ET when theres better gear multiplication(assuming you can get proper traction of course)
its simple physics...
its the same way with rear end gears... as long as you are getting better gear multiplication, you will get better ET's.. the catch is to not go past the point where it puts you in an overdrive gear that may net you less gear multiplication that a much smaller gear...
My example would be my car...
right now...if I stay motor only... around a rear gear of 4.50 I start to go the other way because of what gear and rpm I would be in at the end of the track...
at a rear gear above a 4.60 I start to go slower and slower as my gear goes up.
but that is not the point of this thread...
I've driven cars with 4l60/4l80/TH400... My 6x beats them all hands down.
2 gears is not a winner with a smaller stall like most people use in their daily driver car.
I would bet that 9 times out of 10, you would do better with a 6x assuming that you werent making so much power that you were braking the trans or the converter.
I know that a lot of people who go to a glide do it because they are making enough power to break most of everything else.
and again.. I didnt compare it to a glide...
I compared it to a 4l80..
more gears and less drop between gears will always net you a better ET when theres better gear multiplication(assuming you can get proper traction of course)
its simple physics...
its the same way with rear end gears... as long as you are getting better gear multiplication, you will get better ET's.. the catch is to not go past the point where it puts you in an overdrive gear that may net you less gear multiplication that a much smaller gear...
My example would be my car...
right now...if I stay motor only... around a rear gear of 4.50 I start to go the other way because of what gear and rpm I would be in at the end of the track...
at a rear gear above a 4.60 I start to go slower and slower as my gear goes up.
but that is not the point of this thread...
I've driven cars with 4l60/4l80/TH400... My 6x beats them all hands down.
05-01-2011, 02:54 PM
#12
You're forgetting that a 4l80E is clutch over clutch shift (asynchronous) and a 6X is not. A 6x is similar to a 6L80/90 trans in that is has to release a clutch to apply another on some of the shifts, there are losses involved in this type of shifting that aren't involved in a stock 4L80E, TH400, or TH350.
simple physics....
I would be willing to bet that a 4 speed 4L80E would win in a drag race scenario against a 6x.
simple physics....
I would be willing to bet that a 4 speed 4L80E would win in a drag race scenario against a 6x.
05-01-2011, 10:24 PM
#13
You're forgetting that a 4l80E is clutch over clutch shift (asynchronous) and a 6X is not. A 6x is similar to a 6L80/90 trans in that is has to release a clutch to apply another on some of the shifts, there are losses involved in this type of shifting that aren't involved in a stock 4L80E, TH400, or TH350.
simple physics....
I would be willing to bet that a 4 speed 4L80E would win in a drag race scenario against a 6x.
simple physics....
I would be willing to bet that a 4 speed 4L80E would win in a drag race scenario against a 6x.
and my 6x shifts in under 2 tenths of a second maximum on every shift and I have datalogs from the track showing that.
4l60e/80e shift slower than that
and I have better gear multiplications with the 6x in my first 4 gears.
I'm not trying to make this a competition, I prefer your 4l80 over anybody elses 4l80 on the market right now.
your 4l80's cost far less than a TCI 6x(as they should)
but if somebody has the cash...the 6x will outrun a 4l80.
the one thing.. I wish the 6x had a transbrake option... but it doesnt...so reaction times can suffer because of footbraking. typically the 60' doesnt suffer or differ from either version of leaving the line...or atleast it never has with me... and typically my footbrake 60' was just slightly better than my transbrake 60'
05-01-2011, 11:03 PM
#14
My 6x is faster responding than my 4l80e ever was.
and my 6x shifts in under 2 tenths of a second maximum on every shift and I have datalogs from the track showing that.
4l60e/80e shift slower than that
and I have better gear multiplications with the 6x in my first 4 gears.
I'm not trying to make this a competition, I prefer your 4l80 over anybody elses 4l80 on the market right now.
your 4l80's cost far less than a TCI 6x(as they should)
but if somebody has the cash...the 6x will outrun a 4l80.
the one thing.. I wish the 6x had a transbrake option... but it doesnt...so reaction times can suffer because of footbraking. typically the 60' doesnt suffer or differ from either version of leaving the line...or atleast it never has with me... and typically my footbrake 60' was just slightly better than my transbrake 60'
and my 6x shifts in under 2 tenths of a second maximum on every shift and I have datalogs from the track showing that.
4l60e/80e shift slower than that
and I have better gear multiplications with the 6x in my first 4 gears.
I'm not trying to make this a competition, I prefer your 4l80 over anybody elses 4l80 on the market right now.
your 4l80's cost far less than a TCI 6x(as they should)
but if somebody has the cash...the 6x will outrun a 4l80.
the one thing.. I wish the 6x had a transbrake option... but it doesnt...so reaction times can suffer because of footbraking. typically the 60' doesnt suffer or differ from either version of leaving the line...or atleast it never has with me... and typically my footbrake 60' was just slightly better than my transbrake 60'
In simple terms, a synchronous shift trans can never shift as quickly as a asynchronous.
This is one reason the 6L80E units will never work as well as a 4L80E, TH400, or other asynchronous trans.
I'm glad it's working well for you. I'm a TCI dealer, but I've heard similar stories to 72blownvert's experiences, so I will not sell a 6x.
There are many reasons a 6x may not perform as well as a 4L80E in a quarter mile drag race. The shifting strategy, deeper first gear, more parasitic loss, additional heat and wear on the OD clutches, power rating for a big power combo, etc.
If it's sorted out well, it shouldn't be much slower but I highly doubt it's as fast except possibly in the case of a very tight (stock type) converter.
Do you have quarter mile times from both units?
05-02-2011, 01:33 AM
#15
Jake... I'm sure that there are plenty of people having issues with 4L80's...
I would even bet there are a couple of oops mishaps with a couple of yours as nobody has a perfect record...or atleast anybody that deals with any kind of real volume will not have any perfect record...
but I cant find one place where you have posted that you have installed/driven/used a TCI 6x...
right now you are saying you wont sell one based on something you have read on the internet...
I dont know if you have any personal experience or not...
but If you dont have personal experience with something, then you shouldnt post about it
if you do have personal experience, then I would like to know details
I know that the few stories I have heard about issues, have all been installer or end user errors...
many have been simple install errors of not checking for proper end play in the converter(its amazing how many people dont know to check this or even know how to check this properly)
please tell me you have actually put one in a car that you have personally driven or fine tuned.. and by driven, I mean really used it for an extended length of time..not just went for a 15 minute spin around the block.
and I'm sorry you dont understand the simple physics of gear multiplication...
but I guess when you race a 3.23 rear end beats a 4.11 rear end when crossing the line in a 1:1 gear
I also know I have seen posts where you say you "doubt it will hold up to the 850 rated HP"
but there are quite a few cars doing well over 1000 HP with no issues...
While it is based off of a 4L80.. it is NOT a 4L80.. it has been beefed up and modified
TO THE O.P>
Both are good choices...
I personally like the 6x better than a 4l80
I have listed above everything you need to know to make your own decisions.
If money is an issue, then stick with your original idea of a 4L80.
If you have the Cash for a 6x, then it is well worth the investment and you will not be disappointed. it is worth the extra $.
I would even bet there are a couple of oops mishaps with a couple of yours as nobody has a perfect record...or atleast anybody that deals with any kind of real volume will not have any perfect record...
but I cant find one place where you have posted that you have installed/driven/used a TCI 6x...
right now you are saying you wont sell one based on something you have read on the internet...
I dont know if you have any personal experience or not...
but If you dont have personal experience with something, then you shouldnt post about it
if you do have personal experience, then I would like to know details
I know that the few stories I have heard about issues, have all been installer or end user errors...
many have been simple install errors of not checking for proper end play in the converter(its amazing how many people dont know to check this or even know how to check this properly)
please tell me you have actually put one in a car that you have personally driven or fine tuned.. and by driven, I mean really used it for an extended length of time..not just went for a 15 minute spin around the block.
and I'm sorry you dont understand the simple physics of gear multiplication...
but I guess when you race a 3.23 rear end beats a 4.11 rear end when crossing the line in a 1:1 gear
I also know I have seen posts where you say you "doubt it will hold up to the 850 rated HP"
but there are quite a few cars doing well over 1000 HP with no issues...
While it is based off of a 4L80.. it is NOT a 4L80.. it has been beefed up and modified
TO THE O.P>
Both are good choices...
I personally like the 6x better than a 4l80
I have listed above everything you need to know to make your own decisions.
If money is an issue, then stick with your original idea of a 4L80.
If you have the Cash for a 6x, then it is well worth the investment and you will not be disappointed. it is worth the extra $.
05-02-2011, 05:15 AM
#16
This is how so much bad information comes about. Bad information travels in light years, while accurate information travels at poney express speeds.
Its no different with any new technology. Q-Jets confused Carter and Holley carb tuners. Old timers remember serious carbon build up or lean conditions that blew "bulletproof" motors. TPI pissed off carb guys....anyone remember how many TPI motors washed out cylinder walls or clogged cats from bad e-prom tuning? Sequential multi port injection and ignition made everyone damn Detroit to hell! Now have the same progression with transmission. Simple internal pressure changes, HD cluthes and RPM shift points are not going to cut it anymore for getting the maximum performance out of your electronic transmission. Want simple and strong? Stick to a TH400 or Powerglide.
First, the 6L80/6L90 are not necessarily superior transmissions than the 4L80/TCI 6X, they are different. As usual, based upon the parameters set by the end user, each has its pros and cons. The 6L80/90 biggest pro is its lighter weight. Conversely, its biggest con is that it's still too new and surround in mystery, folklore, downright
, and plain old wtf information.
A synchronous transmission is all well and good on paper, but at the rate of RPM that the internal gears are spinning, with the kind of power todays top motors are putting out, it's just that...theory. Shifting around and engaging gears at high rates of speed with massive force at the same time breaks stuff. It's why GM (and everyone else) put in electronic nannies to kick in delays (as minute as it may be to the human eye) to save parts from going boom. It's precisely why bad tuning makes ALL transmissions, regardless of 'indestructibility' go
!! Why have a potential feature that is never used? It is why ALL modern transmissions have asynchronous clutch transmissions. The clutch and band design allow for a more compact trans as opposed to all clutches in the 4L80.
Now, about the "practical" synchronous feature of the 4L80 (can't speak for the TCI 6X):
Now I can't speak for the TCI 6X, but I'm fairly confident that they didn't rewrite the book on the overall transmission operation.
Either way, good TUNING is the key to get the maximum claimed benefits behind ANY modern electronic system. Take the itme to find a damn good tuner with experience not talk. Spending money on the big dog hardware will be a total waste, otherwise.
Its no different with any new technology. Q-Jets confused Carter and Holley carb tuners. Old timers remember serious carbon build up or lean conditions that blew "bulletproof" motors. TPI pissed off carb guys....anyone remember how many TPI motors washed out cylinder walls or clogged cats from bad e-prom tuning? Sequential multi port injection and ignition made everyone damn Detroit to hell! Now have the same progression with transmission. Simple internal pressure changes, HD cluthes and RPM shift points are not going to cut it anymore for getting the maximum performance out of your electronic transmission. Want simple and strong? Stick to a TH400 or Powerglide.
First, the 6L80/6L90 are not necessarily superior transmissions than the 4L80/TCI 6X, they are different. As usual, based upon the parameters set by the end user, each has its pros and cons. The 6L80/90 biggest pro is its lighter weight. Conversely, its biggest con is that it's still too new and surround in mystery, folklore, downright
, and plain old wtf information. A synchronous transmission is all well and good on paper, but at the rate of RPM that the internal gears are spinning, with the kind of power todays top motors are putting out, it's just that...theory. Shifting around and engaging gears at high rates of speed with massive force at the same time breaks stuff. It's why GM (and everyone else) put in electronic nannies to kick in delays (as minute as it may be to the human eye) to save parts from going boom. It's precisely why bad tuning makes ALL transmissions, regardless of 'indestructibility' go
!! Why have a potential feature that is never used? It is why ALL modern transmissions have asynchronous clutch transmissions. The clutch and band design allow for a more compact trans as opposed to all clutches in the 4L80.Now, about the "practical" synchronous feature of the 4L80 (can't speak for the TCI 6X):
What you are feeling is the ability of the 4L80-E to overcome the inertial energy of the crank and torque converter as it pulls down engine RPM to match the driveline at the next gear ratio. 4L80-E shifts feel precise and robust compared to a 4L60-E because 80's shift with clutch packs only, not a band. If feel like it "doesn't lose as much power" because the gear ratios are closer together - some consider the narrower overall ratio range an unacceptable compromise, but I think the closer ratios yield superior performance.) Also, each upshift in a 4L80-E is handled by the single engagement of a completly different clutch pack for each upshift, none are shared, each upshift is only one engagement of one clutch pack. There are no synchronous engagements or disengagements for any upshift in the 4L80-E. This is possible because the 4L80-E has three distinct planetary gearsets.
Back to the shift feel...
Bands used to shift a transmission have similar characteristics to drum brakes. As more pressure applies the friction material to the drum, the more forces become imparted by the rotating drum to the engagement of the material with a self-energizing effect. Material on the inside of a drum (like a brake shoe) wedges itself against the drum as it imbeds. Material against the outside of a drum wrapped around it will tend to tighten itself as tension on it increases. As applied force rises linearly, imparted forces from the rotating drum rise exponentially, which is why drum brakes lock up so easily. Clutch discs in a transmission do not have this problem. They do not receive any apply forces from the interaction of the two surfaces being engaged. Their engagement remains linear no matter how much torque is being overcome in the process. From a standpoint of precision and control, clutch discs packs function more predictably than a band aound a drum. This is one of the main reasons that disc brakes work better than drum brakes do and why they have less tendancy to lock up.
In comparing the 4L80-E to 4L60-E in design you'll find they have nothing mechanically in common - and that's a compliment to the designers of the TH400 back in the early 60's.
Back to the shift feel...
Bands used to shift a transmission have similar characteristics to drum brakes. As more pressure applies the friction material to the drum, the more forces become imparted by the rotating drum to the engagement of the material with a self-energizing effect. Material on the inside of a drum (like a brake shoe) wedges itself against the drum as it imbeds. Material against the outside of a drum wrapped around it will tend to tighten itself as tension on it increases. As applied force rises linearly, imparted forces from the rotating drum rise exponentially, which is why drum brakes lock up so easily. Clutch discs in a transmission do not have this problem. They do not receive any apply forces from the interaction of the two surfaces being engaged. Their engagement remains linear no matter how much torque is being overcome in the process. From a standpoint of precision and control, clutch discs packs function more predictably than a band aound a drum. This is one of the main reasons that disc brakes work better than drum brakes do and why they have less tendancy to lock up.
In comparing the 4L80-E to 4L60-E in design you'll find they have nothing mechanically in common - and that's a compliment to the designers of the TH400 back in the early 60's.
Nope, not true. There are two bands in the 4L80-E and they aren't used for upshifts or downshifts - only reverse and overrun.
The rear band is engaged only for reverse and manual first.
The front band is only for manual second.
I guess you could say the only things bands do in a 4L80-E is back up or engine-brake in 1 or 2. When cracking into one with a few hundred thousand miles on it both bands can come out lookind brand new.
Yes - a tighter low-stall converter makes shifts of the same line pressure feel more firm, and a high-stall converter softens them. Under less than wide-open throttle conditions the higher stalling converter actually makes shifting easier on the friction materials - there is less RPM difference between the friction surfaces that has to be equalized due to the greater "slip" (higher stall RPM) of the torque converter.
Overdrive in a 4L80-E is a completely independant set of very large diameter clutches with a dedicated apply piston way up front right behind the pump. This clutch pack is only engaged for fourth gear. This independance is made possible by a dedicated seperate overdrive planetary gear set. This assembly has its own clutch set and apply piston (fourth gear), overrun clutches and apply piston (engaged only for manual 3,2,1), planetary gear set, and overrun roller clutch. It receives lubrication and overrun apply fluid though the sealing rings on the pump hub, and the main clutch pack is fed directly from the valve body through a hollow bolt that holds the clutch assembly in place inside the case.
The rear band is engaged only for reverse and manual first.
The front band is only for manual second.
I guess you could say the only things bands do in a 4L80-E is back up or engine-brake in 1 or 2. When cracking into one with a few hundred thousand miles on it both bands can come out lookind brand new.
Yes - a tighter low-stall converter makes shifts of the same line pressure feel more firm, and a high-stall converter softens them. Under less than wide-open throttle conditions the higher stalling converter actually makes shifting easier on the friction materials - there is less RPM difference between the friction surfaces that has to be equalized due to the greater "slip" (higher stall RPM) of the torque converter.
Overdrive in a 4L80-E is a completely independant set of very large diameter clutches with a dedicated apply piston way up front right behind the pump. This clutch pack is only engaged for fourth gear. This independance is made possible by a dedicated seperate overdrive planetary gear set. This assembly has its own clutch set and apply piston (fourth gear), overrun clutches and apply piston (engaged only for manual 3,2,1), planetary gear set, and overrun roller clutch. It receives lubrication and overrun apply fluid though the sealing rings on the pump hub, and the main clutch pack is fed directly from the valve body through a hollow bolt that holds the clutch assembly in place inside the case.
Either way, good TUNING is the key to get the maximum claimed benefits behind ANY modern electronic system. Take the itme to find a damn good tuner with experience not talk. Spending money on the big dog hardware will be a total waste, otherwise.
Last edited by TrueBlueGTO; 05-02-2011 at 05:55 AM.
05-02-2011, 08:42 AM
#17
the 6x applies in the same way as the 4L80... with the exception that it is applying the overdrive gear in 1st, and in 2nd... 3rd and 4th are the same as a 4L80
so you get this in the 6x
1= 1
2= 1+Overdrive
3= 2
4= 2+Overdrive
5= 3
6= 4
and as my understanding is, it has 7 clutches as compared to the 6 that Jake mentioned earlier.
the gears in the 6x have also been beefed up so that they are not weaker from the "less material factor" as the gear rations go up.
they have a custom set of gears... not just a custom set of values for gears.
also, the 6x can skip gears, it doesnt have to go one gear to another to shift...(all in the programming of advanced parameters in the PCS/Redbox controller)
It can shift from 6th down into 2nd without having to go 6-5-4-3-2... and it does it Dam Fast.. faster than any person can manually shift
so you get this in the 6x
1= 1
2= 1+Overdrive
3= 2
4= 2+Overdrive
5= 3
6= 4
and as my understanding is, it has 7 clutches as compared to the 6 that Jake mentioned earlier.
the gears in the 6x have also been beefed up so that they are not weaker from the "less material factor" as the gear rations go up.
they have a custom set of gears... not just a custom set of values for gears.
also, the 6x can skip gears, it doesnt have to go one gear to another to shift...(all in the programming of advanced parameters in the PCS/Redbox controller)
It can shift from 6th down into 2nd without having to go 6-5-4-3-2... and it does it Dam Fast.. faster than any person can manually shift
05-02-2011, 12:12 PM
#19
Jake... I'm sure that there are plenty of people having issues with 4L80's...
I would even bet there are a couple of oops mishaps with a couple of yours as nobody has a perfect record...or atleast anybody that deals with any kind of real volume will not have any perfect record...
but I cant find one place where you have posted that you have installed/driven/used a TCI 6x...
right now you are saying you wont sell one based on something you have read on the internet...
I dont know if you have any personal experience or not...
but If you dont have personal experience with something, then you shouldnt post about it
if you do have personal experience, then I would like to know details
I know that the few stories I have heard about issues, have all been installer or end user errors...
many have been simple install errors of not checking for proper end play in the converter(its amazing how many people dont know to check this or even know how to check this properly)
please tell me you have actually put one in a car that you have personally driven or fine tuned.. and by driven, I mean really used it for an extended length of time..not just went for a 15 minute spin around the block.
and I'm sorry you dont understand the simple physics of gear multiplication...
but I guess when you race a 3.23 rear end beats a 4.11 rear end when crossing the line in a 1:1 gear
I also know I have seen posts where you say you "doubt it will hold up to the 850 rated HP"
but there are quite a few cars doing well over 1000 HP with no issues...
While it is based off of a 4L80.. it is NOT a 4L80.. it has been beefed up and modified
TO THE O.P>
Both are good choices...
I personally like the 6x better than a 4l80
I have listed above everything you need to know to make your own decisions.
If money is an issue, then stick with your original idea of a 4L80.
If you have the Cash for a 6x, then it is well worth the investment and you will not be disappointed. it is worth the extra $.
I would even bet there are a couple of oops mishaps with a couple of yours as nobody has a perfect record...or atleast anybody that deals with any kind of real volume will not have any perfect record...
but I cant find one place where you have posted that you have installed/driven/used a TCI 6x...
right now you are saying you wont sell one based on something you have read on the internet...
I dont know if you have any personal experience or not...
but If you dont have personal experience with something, then you shouldnt post about it
if you do have personal experience, then I would like to know details
I know that the few stories I have heard about issues, have all been installer or end user errors...
many have been simple install errors of not checking for proper end play in the converter(its amazing how many people dont know to check this or even know how to check this properly)
please tell me you have actually put one in a car that you have personally driven or fine tuned.. and by driven, I mean really used it for an extended length of time..not just went for a 15 minute spin around the block.
and I'm sorry you dont understand the simple physics of gear multiplication...
but I guess when you race a 3.23 rear end beats a 4.11 rear end when crossing the line in a 1:1 gear
I also know I have seen posts where you say you "doubt it will hold up to the 850 rated HP"
but there are quite a few cars doing well over 1000 HP with no issues...
While it is based off of a 4L80.. it is NOT a 4L80.. it has been beefed up and modified
TO THE O.P>
Both are good choices...
I personally like the 6x better than a 4l80
I have listed above everything you need to know to make your own decisions.
If money is an issue, then stick with your original idea of a 4L80.
If you have the Cash for a 6x, then it is well worth the investment and you will not be disappointed. it is worth the extra $.
Yes,
Obviously 4L80E's can have issues.
Any piece of equipment with over 400 seperate components, mechanical, hydraulic, and electronic systems has the potential for failure, misuse, etc.
We have very few problems with our units but most are human error on our part or installation issues.
I have not installed, driven, etc a 6x.
I have connections at all levels in this industry. I have some very reliable sources who have dealt with these units. Their experience is why I don't sell these units.
I think it is a good idea, neat unit, and workable within limits (that all units have). I can also understand there being bugs in the initial installs.
We are working on a 6 speed version of the 4L80E due to demand, but with engine braking for the road-racing customers.
I think you can do better than the insults.
I haven't insulted you but keep in mind you are speaking to someone who has designed a transbrake for the 4L80E, as well as several unique parts for it such as an adjustable pressure regulator assembly, and sells these parts to some of the biggest names in the industry for their units. I know this unit better than most and have more experience with automatics from the rebuilder, racer, and DESIGN standpoint that probably anybody who regularly posts on this forum.
I understand gear multiplication on a level that extends beyond what happens at the driveshaft, but also to each rotating component in the trans.
They can call it whatever they want, it is still simply a 4L80E with a low gear set, and a method to turn on the 4th gear clutches independend of the normal A solenoid.
It is actually very simple to do hydraulically within the trans, especially when eliminating engine braking. It's only complex part is the control, which to those who deal with that, it's simple, especially compared to the 6L80/90 controls.
The reason I say I doubt it holds uo to 850 HP (reliably long term) is due the fact it applies the OD clutches 3 times to go through 6 gears.
That is a huge amount of heat to put through a set of clutches at WOT with big power. Applying them once is one thing, but to apply repeatedly becomes a whole different game. Heat kills the clutches, not to mention wear over time.
Fortunately the 4L80E has a robust OD clutch, but they have their limits. This has little to do with how good the builder is, how much the parts cost, or even how good the cooler is, but to use your phrase, "simple physics"...
More on the next post...
05-02-2011, 12:18 PM
#20
This is how so much bad information comes about. Bad information travels in light years, while accurate information travels at poney express speeds.
Its no different with any new technology. Q-Jets confused Carter and Holley carb tuners. Old timers remember serious carbon build up or lean conditions that blew "bulletproof" motors. TPI pissed off carb guys....anyone remember how many TPI motors washed out cylinder walls or clogged cats from bad e-prom tuning? Sequential multi port injection and ignition made everyone damn Detroit to hell! Now have the same progression with transmission. Simple internal pressure changes, HD cluthes and RPM shift points are not going to cut it anymore for getting the maximum performance out of your electronic transmission. Want simple and strong? Stick to a TH400 or Powerglide.
First, the 6L80/6L90 are not necessarily superior transmissions than the 4L80/TCI 6X, they are different. As usual, based upon the parameters set by the end user, each has its pros and cons. The 6L80/90 biggest pro is its lighter weight. Conversely, its biggest con is that it's still too new and surround in mystery, folklore, downright, and plain old wtf information.
A synchronous transmission is all well and good on paper, but at the rate of RPM that the internal gears are spinning, with the kind of power todays top motors are putting out, it's just that...theory. Shifting around and engaging gears at high rates of speed with massive force at the same time breaks stuff. It's why GM (and everyone else) put in electronic nannies to kick in delays (as minute as it may be to the human eye) to save parts from going boom. It's precisely why bad tuning makes ALL transmissions, regardless of 'indestructibility' go!! Why have a potential feature that is never used? It is why ALL modern transmissions have asynchronous clutch transmissions. The clutch and band design allow for a more compact trans as opposed to all clutches in the 4L80.
Now, about the "practical" synchronous feature of the 4L80 (can't speak for the TCI 6X):
Now I can't speak for the TCI 6X, but I'm fairly confident that they didn't rewrite the book on the overall transmission operation.
Either way, good TUNING is the key to get the maximum claimed benefits behind ANY modern electronic system. Take the itme to find a damn good tuner with experience not talk. Spending money on the big dog hardware will be a total waste, otherwise.
Its no different with any new technology. Q-Jets confused Carter and Holley carb tuners. Old timers remember serious carbon build up or lean conditions that blew "bulletproof" motors. TPI pissed off carb guys....anyone remember how many TPI motors washed out cylinder walls or clogged cats from bad e-prom tuning? Sequential multi port injection and ignition made everyone damn Detroit to hell! Now have the same progression with transmission. Simple internal pressure changes, HD cluthes and RPM shift points are not going to cut it anymore for getting the maximum performance out of your electronic transmission. Want simple and strong? Stick to a TH400 or Powerglide.
First, the 6L80/6L90 are not necessarily superior transmissions than the 4L80/TCI 6X, they are different. As usual, based upon the parameters set by the end user, each has its pros and cons. The 6L80/90 biggest pro is its lighter weight. Conversely, its biggest con is that it's still too new and surround in mystery, folklore, downright
, and plain old wtf information. A synchronous transmission is all well and good on paper, but at the rate of RPM that the internal gears are spinning, with the kind of power todays top motors are putting out, it's just that...theory. Shifting around and engaging gears at high rates of speed with massive force at the same time breaks stuff. It's why GM (and everyone else) put in electronic nannies to kick in delays (as minute as it may be to the human eye) to save parts from going boom. It's precisely why bad tuning makes ALL transmissions, regardless of 'indestructibility' go
!! Why have a potential feature that is never used? It is why ALL modern transmissions have asynchronous clutch transmissions. The clutch and band design allow for a more compact trans as opposed to all clutches in the 4L80.Now, about the "practical" synchronous feature of the 4L80 (can't speak for the TCI 6X):
Now I can't speak for the TCI 6X, but I'm fairly confident that they didn't rewrite the book on the overall transmission operation.
Either way, good TUNING is the key to get the maximum claimed benefits behind ANY modern electronic system. Take the itme to find a damn good tuner with experience not talk. Spending money on the big dog hardware will be a total waste, otherwise.
A 6L80/90 trans. They are not lighter than a 4L80E.
They are not asynchronous. They are absolutely synchronized, every shift requires a clutch to be released and another engaged, unlike a TH400 or 4L80E. This is why they are having hell keeping them alive in big power applications and the tune IS all so critical. Wonder why those who specialize int he 6L units still recommend a 4L80E for big power?