View Full Version : EFI live, 160lb injs, E85, resistors, only runs WITHOUT the fuel pump on?


Wicked69
05-02-2012, 09:29 PM
This is strange. I can get my car to fire up if I turn the fuel pump on for a few seconds and then shut it off. After doing this I fire it up and it idles and revs. Not perfect but not far off. As soon as you turn the fuel pump on the car floods out. Any ideas? I have another pcm that is tuned using Hptuners and it runs and idles fine. I transfered everything to from that tune to an EFI live tune but obviously I have done something wrong. I am thinking it has to be with the injector settings but today I tried everything and still couldn't get it to run with the fuel pump on. How crazy is that?

Please help before I give up on EFI live.

joecar
05-02-2012, 10:57 PM
So when the fuel pump is off, how's the engine getting fuel...?

It runs fine on your other PCM, but it runs bad (flooding) with this PCM...

I'm thinking maybe the IFR is incorrect for these injectors and/or fuel rail pressure.

98Camarod
05-03-2012, 05:57 AM
If you transferred from a known good tune, then I'd suggest it being something with the 2 bar or 3 bar setup. I'm not familiar how efi live does it, but with hp tuners if you want to have a boost setup, you have to have the custom operating software that makes your ve table go up to boost kpa's. Check to see if that's it.

Wicked69
05-03-2012, 10:51 PM
If you transferred from a known good tune, then I'd suggest it being something with the 2 bar or 3 bar setup. I'm not familiar how efi live does it, but with hp tuners if you want to have a boost setup, you have to have the custom operating software that makes your ve table go up to boost kpa's. Check to see if that's it.

That's not it. Hptuners has the VE table that has normal and boost. EFI live has a Main VE table and then a boost table. The end of the Main VE is 105kpa and the beginning of the boost table is 105kpa. I just set the tune up for Main VE first and then highlighted the entire 105kpa and clicked "copy with labels" I then "pasted with labels" in the 105kpa column in the Boost VE table and then finished the tune up to 20lbs of boost even though I only hit 15lbs. So I don't think that is it. It may not be perfect but it should at least run with how I have the VE tables. It has to be something with how the injector information or the fuel pump being on a toggle switch and NOT being run by the computer. With everything else the car should at least run. It may run like shit at first but it should fire up.

98Camarod
05-04-2012, 06:25 AM
That's not it. Hptuners has the VE table that has normal and boost. EFI live has a Main VE table and then a boost table. The end of the Main VE is 105kpa and the beginning of the boost table is 105kpa. I just set the tune up for Main VE first and then highlighted the entire 105kpa and clicked "copy with labels" I then "pasted with labels" in the 105kpa column in the Boost VE table and then finished the tune up to 20lbs of boost even though I only hit 15lbs. So I don't think that is it. It may not be perfect but it should at least run with how I have the VE tables. It has to be something with how the injector information or the fuel pump being on a toggle switch and NOT being run by the computer. With everything else the car should at least run. It may run like shit at first but it should fire up.

It was my first guess.

My second guess would be that your fuel pressure is too high or the IFR isn't correct for the fuel pressure your running.

Whats your base pressure and how'd you set it? Can you post both of your tunes?

BLK02WS6
05-04-2012, 06:29 AM
Do you have the .cax file for your OS so that you can lower the injector minimum pulse width on table B9021 below the hard limit?

Sounds like you have an EFILive custom operating system - was it installed into the PCM correctly using the tutuorial?

Post up your tune so we can take a look at it...

minytrker
05-04-2012, 07:49 PM
Are you sure it pasted the VE table correctly since EFI and HPT have the axis flipped?

MJEngineering
05-04-2012, 07:53 PM
Are you sure you didn't mix up your units?

With a vette FPR ~60 psi you should have something like this in grams/sec:

23.278763
23.423843
23.568030
23.711341
23.853790
23.995394
24.136167
24.276124
24.415279
24.553644
24.691235
24.828063
24.964141
25.099482
25.234096
25.367996
25.501193

T76s10
05-04-2012, 08:33 PM
I wonder if the toggle switch does have something to do with it not starting. My turbo s10 is almost done and I also have a toggle switch and my truck won't start either; but I haven't tried starting it without the pump on yet

Wicked69
05-05-2012, 12:22 AM
It was my first guess.

My second guess would be that your fuel pressure is too high or the IFR isn't correct for the fuel pressure your running.

Whats your base pressure and how'd you set it? Can you post both of your tunes?

I will. My base pressure is 50psi. That is off the regulator that is off the rails.

Wicked69
05-05-2012, 12:23 AM
Are you sure it pasted the VE table correctly since EFI and HPT have the axis flipped?

Yes. That was what made it a pain in the ass to type in manually. Reading one direction and using the tab button for the other direction.

Wicked69
05-05-2012, 12:27 AM
Are you sure you didn't mix up your units?

With a vette FPR ~60 psi you should have something like this in grams/sec:

23.278763
23.423843
23.568030
23.711341
23.853790
23.995394
24.136167
24.276124
24.415279
24.553644
24.691235
24.828063
24.964141
25.099482
25.234096
25.367996
25.501193

Yes. Very similar but off the top of my head I think it started with 21.... However, today I had someone with HPtuners pull the tune off my pcm that works and what we found that was interesting is the IFR is in lbs per hour but it doesn't say 160 for a value but 69 and working it's way up to 80. Is it possible he did this to help with the problem of flooding the engine with too big of an injector? I am a 100% sure that I have 160lb injectors but his numbers are very low (69) my main VE table is also very low numbers. Any ideas if this may be the reason the tune works? Maybe 160 is the correct number on paper but is just feeding it way too much fuel with those numbers punched in.

Wicked69
05-05-2012, 12:32 AM
Do you have the .cax file for your OS so that you can lower the injector minimum pulse width on table B9021 below the hard limit?

Sounds like you have an EFILive custom operating system - was it installed into the PCM correctly using the tutuorial?

Post up your tune so we can take a look at it...

Here is the tune that we pulled up on my pcm that has an HPTuners on it. This tune was pulled off today. This is the tune that allows the car to idle, cruise and not miss a beat at WOT. I have driven it over 1500 miles with the big injectors and resistors, and ran 6.83 in the 1/8 with this tune. Very conservative. If you notice my IFR is extremely low. I looked at my old tune where the tuner had a hard time getting it to run and the IFR said 160 across the board.

Wicked69
05-05-2012, 12:38 AM
Here is the EFI live tune that I cannot get to work. I have not tried lowering the IFR to 69 yet as per the HPtune. It is a COS3 and yes it was done correctly.

I am also sending a second tune that we tried. The one that says Lamba was the one that I was messing with. That is the one that starts the car but without the fuel pump on. The other tune is one that someone did for me that is does them all the time.

DrkPhx
05-05-2012, 01:09 AM
I see alot of inconsistencies between the the different tunes.The stoich value in the HPT tune is 14.68 (gas) and the stoich value in the EFILive tune is 9.80 (E85) and in one of the tunes it's 1.00. There's also discrepancies in the IFR values in the EFILive tunes; 1 has a range of from 159 to 168 lb/hr, one with the same values in all cells (171) and another with wild numbers. Confirm what injectors are installed, then get the correct data, set the stoich based on gas or E85, then tune from there. Once again, something was lost in translation when converting the tunes.

minytrker
05-05-2012, 02:00 AM
I agree with DrkPhx. The tunes are not the same at all. EFI isnt the problem. If the car runs on the HPT tune why are you trying to copy it to EFI?

Wicked69
05-05-2012, 10:57 AM
I agree with DrkPhx. The tunes are not the same at all. EFI isnt the problem. If the car runs on the HPT tune why are you trying to copy it to EFI?

Because I don't own HPtuners and cannot tune it with that. I didn't build the car to just drive around. 6.83 in the 1/8th is no where near what I built the car for. I own EFI live and want to be able to tune it with such. The only tuner is a 3 hr drive round trip and he happened to tune with HPtuners. The car was there for 3 weeks. I have no desire to do that to make a small change here and there. I want to be able to tune myself.

Again, maybe I am not explaining the correct. The tune you see for HP is what we pulled off my computer. That is NOT, NOT, NOT the hptune I tried to copy. I tried to copy the HPtune that I was told was in my pcm but when we read the pcm it had the IFR set at low numbers like 69 in the first table. Right or wrong that is the tune in the pcm that runs and runs good (not great)

2000RATA
05-05-2012, 11:50 AM
Unrelated but I have the opposite problem, my tuner guy uses EFI live and I about bought HP before I found out. I called to be sure he had hp tuner and he said no efi. I went oh...he goes you already bought HP tuner didn't you? Luckily I had not. :) good luck I'm going efi live myself.

98Camarod
05-05-2012, 12:00 PM
Why couldn't you just read what was on the computer with the efi live and modify that since it was already running? Can you not do that?

minytrker
05-05-2012, 03:39 PM
Why couldn't you just read what was on the computer with the efi live and modify that since it was already running? Can you not do that?

No when you do a custom os with HPT it locks out EFI, same if you do a custom os with EFI it locks out HPT.

minytrker
05-05-2012, 03:41 PM
Because I don't own HPtuners and cannot tune it with that. I didn't build the car to just drive around. 6.83 in the 1/8th is no where near what I built the car for. I own EFI live and want to be able to tune it with such. The only tuner is a 3 hr drive round trip and he happened to tune with HPtuners. The car was there for 3 weeks. I have no desire to do that to make a small change here and there. I want to be able to tune myself.

Again, maybe I am not explaining the correct. The tune you see for HP is what we pulled off my computer. That is NOT, NOT, NOT the hptune I tried to copy. I tried to copy the HPtune that I was told was in my pcm but when we read the pcm it had the IFR set at low numbers like 69 in the first table. Right or wrong that is the tune in the pcm that runs and runs good (not great)

You probably dont want to hear this but I would just start from scratch with EFI. You could always buy a base tune on here from a sponsor and then try to dial that in. I think what your trying to do with copying a hpt tune to efi is a losing up hill battle.

98Camarod
05-05-2012, 03:52 PM
No when you do a custom os with HPT it locks out EFI, same if you do a custom os with EFI it locks out HPT.

good to know Lorenz.

BLK02WS6
05-05-2012, 07:55 PM
I second minytrker's advice! You have a bunch of messed up tunes there and need to scrap them all and do it right! First thing you have to do is get the injector tables right and go from there. The injector tables in the one that starts the car with the fuel pump off are totally jacked...

Does the car have a vacuum referenced fuel pressure regulator? If so, it should have a flat injector flowrate table like your friend did - but don't use his tune because his VE table is totally screwed up.

Do you have any of the other data for the fuel injector tables for your injectors?

I don't have HPTuners, so I can't see the tune you said the car runs on...

Wicked69
05-06-2012, 10:24 PM
I second minytrker's advice! You have a bunch of messed up tunes there and need to scrap them all and do it right! First thing you have to do is get the injector tables right and go from there. The injector tables in the one that starts the car with the fuel pump off are totally jacked...

Does the car have a vacuum referenced fuel pressure regulator? If so, it should have a flat injector flowrate table like your friend did - but don't use his tune because his VE table is totally screwed up.

Do you have any of the other data for the fuel injector tables for your injectors?

I don't have HPTuners, so I can't see the tune you said the car runs on...

I thought I would update. My cousin who did my tune said the same thing. The tunes were not the ones he sent. What we figured out is that my EFI tune software had things set up for Celsius, etc. instead of Farenheit, KPA, MPH, grams per second instead of lbs per hr, etc.. So when I would open the tune up in my EFI live it really wasn't the same tune.

Anyways, he drove all the way from Chicago, 7 hrs each way and this morning fixed everything. The first thing he did was change the IFR tables. What is interesting is the car runs and idles perfect now but the table is set in the 69-80 range, not 160 like it should be. Regardless it works that way. He also lowered my fuel pressure to 45 from 52 and messed with my spark, voltage, etc.. 2 hrs later the car fires right up, idles perfect, revs nice and doesn't die when you manually kick the fan on.

Now I can at least scan and start doing the fine tuning now. Just wanted to give everyone an update.

Thanks for trying to help out. You were right though. The first thing he did was put every tune I had in the trash. lol

BLK02WS6
05-07-2012, 06:38 AM
Good news! The units being off will definitely do it! As far as the injector tables being so low - it may have to do with them using resistors... also, having injector flowrate lower than it should be will cause the VE to be skewed off to compensate - I think you have some of that going on too...

joecar
05-07-2012, 10:44 AM
Good news :cheers:

Looks like the IFR/VE are scaled as BLK02WS6 said ^, perhaps to avoid hitting the PCM's MAF limit.

If you want to learn how to operate your EFILive software (selecting units and other stuff) come visit on the EFILive forum.

Wicked69
05-07-2012, 01:43 PM
Good news :cheers:

Looks like the IFR/VE are scaled as BLK02WS6 said ^, perhaps to avoid hitting the PCM's MAF limit.

If you want to learn how to operate your EFILive software (selecting units and other stuff) come visit on the EFILive forum.

Thanks Joe. I am on there all the time. Just new to it all. I am "sinister" on EFI live.

joecar
05-07-2012, 02:30 PM
Ok, understood :cheers: