02RedHawk

iTrader: (17)

Ok gang.... I am looking for some help in choosing the right Wideband "kit" for my usage.

Here's my requirements / intentions:

- The Wideband will NOT be permanently mounted in my Hawk (cam/headers). In fact, I plan on "sharing" it on my GTP, and with my buddy on his turbo'ed Cobra.

- It MUST have a pre-provided RPM pickup input (NOT inductive). A wideband is useless unless I can correlate it back to what RPM the A/F's occured at.

- It MUST have datalogging software to connect to a laptop. The wideband is useless unless I can record the A/F's and RPMs for analysis later.

- It "should" collect data *at least* 10fps, hopefully a helluva lot quicker.

- I have Autotap for the logging of other parameters.

- I do NOT want nor need a standalone "display" box / AF-gage.. All I need is to be sure that it can hookup to a laptop so that I can record the data and review / print / graph it later. In my opinion, for tuning a realtime display on a gage is eye-candy (albeit being accurate data).

- I would prefer it to be a turnkey-type complete kit & an easy install. I do not want to have to piecemeal "this 'n that" together to make it work.


So............. With that said, *please* help choose which of the 'kits' would work best for me.

FJORacing www.fjoracing.com
Dynojet's Wideband Commander www.widebandcommander.com
Innovate's LM-1 www.innovatemotorsports.com
TechEdge's www.wbo2.com
Other???

Of course, cost is also another factor. Pros and Cons of each of the above, based upon my usage and requirements?

I would love to research myself, but frankly, with the hours I'm working right now + other "home" tasks, I'd rather trust my decision to those of you that have already purchased and can recommend one!!!

samz28

faster than 10fps? Geez you must think these widebands are magic or something. nernst cells aren't all that fast (esp the bosch cheapies).

02RedHawk

iTrader: (17)

Well, think about it this way. 0-60 in ~5 seconds. At 10fps, that's only 50 frames of data for ~5000 rpm range. This means you're getting a reading every 100 rpm (approx, since rpm rise-rate isn't linear). That's not the best resolution for tuning, but still very acceptable for me. Ideally, I'd like it to be quicker, but yes I do realize the limitations of certain widebands, and ~10fps seems to be the norm. Do you have a suggestion or recommendation for any of them, Samz28?

Bink

The only one, I know of, that meets all of your requirements is the FJO setup. Stand alone with 30 fps and a dedicated RPM wire. Can also use their Inductive wire - see their website. It's more costly than the others ....but if your serious about tuning i.e. you need to log transitions - then the FJO is your best bet. Soon (Fall 2004?) EFILive will release their "FlashScan" hardware and we'll be able to integrate the FJO and EFILive. FWIW.
joel

samz28

the ntk sensors are indeed faster reacting than the bosch lsu sensors, but at the same time the ntk sensors are more "pulse" effected.

I have both the lm-1 (bosch) and a lambdaboy (ntk), the ntk is far more accurate, but due to pulsing, results is a slightly more spikey output.

not sure what the fjo is using these days, but the old ones were ntk based. The range of air fuel on the ntk are better as well they can accurately read in the high 8-9 a/f range where as the bosch tend to poop around 10:1, i used them to tune f/i cars, i prefer the ntk.

Perhaps for the n/a setups the bosch will suffice, and the sensor prices are far cheaper (dealer cost $17 from vw). alot more bosch lsu style sensors are in production cars, the ntk was from those lean burn honda motors, which aren't as popular.

With the current trend, just about every car will be using primary bosch lsu "semi-wideband" as i call it sensors within the next few years, due to new emissions standards and cost, etc. maybe for all cars except really low end models, kinda like DBW you'll find almost everyone transitioning to this as well as emissions standards become more ****.

66ImpalaLT1

I would buy Innovate's with the tailpipe clamp and rpm pickup. Its not peacemeal, all of it is available from Innovates website. $525 + shipping for what you want.

The innovate unit will be the easiest to install and remove in several cars. Its plug and play.

If I had a NTK sensor I'd try it on my LM-1 (it works for both). I'd be interested to see if records faster changes than the LM-1 with the included Bosch.

I am running mine full time, so $17 sensors are a big win for me.

jimmyblue

iTrader: (11)

What kind of service life are you seeing out of the sensor
in full-time use? And how does it degrade, do you see
it just drift accuracy or does the LM-1 tell you it's bad?

Silver 2000 Ram Air

iTrader: (32)

sorry to get off topic here a little... are you supposed to mount the wideband in the tailpipe? I just got lm-1 and had a bung welded in near the front 02 sensors, I thought this would be better than a tail pipe mount?

samz28

no!! these nernst cells must move FRESH AIR in to get a good signal. If you shove it up the butt then you will not be allowing it to ION PUMP fresh air in to get a signal.

They are specifically designed to be put in your bungholio

02RedHawk

iTrader: (17)

Is FJO the best-bet, then?

samz28

fjo used to develop (during their wideband development) military products. I assume their levels of standard (milspec) for their products are much higher than consumer based products.

That is a big plus in my book. The gubment doesnt buy cheesy equipment that breaks when you drop it the first time eh?

What backgrounds do the other companies have?

FJO has military production background. big plus.

66ImpalaLT1

Innovate talks about why you cant "shove it up the butt" on their site. They have a clamp made for this that doesnt interfere with the oxygen reference.

frcefed98

iTrader: (16)

Are these guys any good?
http://www.plxdevices.com/index.htm
Seem to have some good stuff.

66ImpalaLT1

frcefed98, at your altitude you want to be sure that the controller properly calibrates. Most units use a calibration resistor that is installed in the sensor at the factory. They are setup for sea level, and at 5000', its going to be different than it reports.

frcefed98

iTrader: (16)

Good to know Eric, looks like I will be ordering the LM-1 since theirs has this feature listed.
Thanks

samz28

It's important to never underestimate the fact that each bank can run at a different a/f ratio. So drill a bunghole in each Y pipe so you can make passes to ensure balance.

Something like a lifter not pumping at high rpms could show up on one side of the motor at high rpm's. Would suck to have bank 1 dialed perfectly and bank 2 trippin *****, ie injector locking up at high rpm's whatever.

or buy two widebands for maximum fun
if the headers weren't so hot i'd say drill a bung in each runner, then you can read each cylinder lol. That would be pure race car kinda tuning, but i bet they'd do it if the motor cost enough.

66ImpalaLT1

Good point about the y-pipe. Since my Corvette has dual exhaust I'm only reading one bank with a wideband. It's not ideal so I still monitor the narrow band O2's. They arent accurate but hopefully if there's a serious imbalance they will show it.

samz28

i'm sorry to tell you this but if you read up on o2 sensors, without an EGT feedback system, high EGT's will affect the o2 sensor output. Symptoms of high EGT's are misfires and detonation. The narrows are quite simply useless as you might have noticed if you have logged a real O2 sensor compared to a wideband.

I'm from the boosted world so i consider O2 sensors "dummy lights" like the "oil pressure light". Its one of those too late type of indicators but gives you some satisfaction that you are reasonably running ok. Never trust an O2 narrowband..

Sbertolone

iTrader: (5)

hey i have the fjo kit complete with everything except the vacuum florescent display, which i thought was to much for what i needed.i got this for my turbo rx7, and it works awesome, its simple to move, takes about 15 min to take from car to car. we have used on stuff from different imports to 10 and 11 sec muscle cars. i made sure to mount mine 2 feet behind the turbo in my car just so the high egt doesnt kill it as i was getting temps in the upper 1600s in my manifold. the data logging is nice espically the fact that you can datalog to a palm pilot, so if your laptop only has 1 serial port, and you need to tune your ecu, you have to keep switching things or picking between what you want to log.