Wheelies are cool, but .....
11-05-2002, 07:39 AM
#1
Wheelies are cool, but ..... Aren't wheelies just wasted motion when launching? I realize there are two sides to this arguement. What do all you hard launchers think is the prevalent train of thought here?
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11-05-2002, 07:43 AM
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Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... Wheelies are bad when in excess.....
But when the front wheels are off the ground where is all the weight being shifted to???
Does it go to the rear wheels??
If the car weights 3200 lbs does it shift to the rear???
Would the car still weight 3200 lbs at the rear wheels???
If it is lighter will it go faster or slow down??
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But when the front wheels are off the ground where is all the weight being shifted to???
Does it go to the rear wheels??
If the car weights 3200 lbs does it shift to the rear???
Would the car still weight 3200 lbs at the rear wheels???
If it is lighter will it go faster or slow down??
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11-05-2002, 07:48 AM
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Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Reckless:
<strong>Aren't wheelies just wasted motion when launching? I realize there are two sides to this arguement. What do all you hard launchers think is the prevalent train of thought here?
<img border="0" alt="[Firebird]" title="" src="graemlins/formula.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes very hard on ET's not to mention parts. Ideally, you want the car to launch flat so your energy is used moving the car forward and not up into space.
<strong>Aren't wheelies just wasted motion when launching? I realize there are two sides to this arguement. What do all you hard launchers think is the prevalent train of thought here?
<img border="0" alt="[Firebird]" title="" src="graemlins/formula.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes very hard on ET's not to mention parts. Ideally, you want the car to launch flat so your energy is used moving the car forward and not up into space.
11-05-2002, 07:54 AM
#4
Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... Exactly what I was thinking Mikey. Why is it that all these folks with their suspensions tweaked are launching with their wheels 2-3 feet in the air? It seems that the best launch would not pull the wheels at all. Any motion upward is wasted IMO.
Todd
Todd
11-05-2002, 07:59 AM
#5
Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... you have 4 contact patches (tires) when the car is at the line. If a car has a 50/50% distribution, with a weight of 3200, thats 1600#s on the front, and 1600#s on the rear. If the car is square side to side or a 50% weight distribution side to side, thats 800#s per tire.
When the car launches, pulling both wheels results in 2 less contact patched ( 2 tires are now in the air) that means that there is 3200 (total weight)#s on those 2 rear tires.
However ( and someone correct me if Im wrong) with the pinion torque and engine torque (opposing forces) the tires are not equally weighted in the rear ( when you pull just one tire, the right rear tire has the most weight- hence, the need for an airbag)
so, limiting your tire pulling to just a few inches is ideal. Prostock cars, when watched closely, carry the front tire for quite some time, however, they are just a few inches off the ground <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />
I hope that this clears some things up. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
Louis
When the car launches, pulling both wheels results in 2 less contact patched ( 2 tires are now in the air) that means that there is 3200 (total weight)#s on those 2 rear tires.
However ( and someone correct me if Im wrong) with the pinion torque and engine torque (opposing forces) the tires are not equally weighted in the rear ( when you pull just one tire, the right rear tire has the most weight- hence, the need for an airbag)
so, limiting your tire pulling to just a few inches is ideal. Prostock cars, when watched closely, carry the front tire for quite some time, however, they are just a few inches off the ground <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />
I hope that this clears some things up. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
Louis
11-05-2002, 08:04 AM
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Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> you have 4 contact patches (tires) when the car is at the line. If a car has a 50/50% distribution, with a weight of 3200, thats 1600#s on the front, and 1600#s on the rear. If the car is square side to side or a 50% weight distribution side to side, thats 800#s per tire.
When the car launches, pulling both wheels results in 2 less contact patched ( 2 tires are now in the air) that means that there is 3200 (total weight)#s on those 2 rear tires.
However ( and someone correct me if Im wrong) with the pinion torque and engine torque (opposing forces) the tires are not equally weighted in the rear ( when you pull just one tire, the right rear tire has the most weight- hence, the need for an airbag)
so, limiting your tire pulling to just a few inches is ideal. Prostock cars, when watched closely, carry the front tire for quite some time, however, they are just a few inches off the ground
I hope that this clears some things up.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is exactly what I meant.. Wheelies are bad in excess. Pain and I can show the results as can Mikey.
When the car launches, pulling both wheels results in 2 less contact patched ( 2 tires are now in the air) that means that there is 3200 (total weight)#s on those 2 rear tires.
However ( and someone correct me if Im wrong) with the pinion torque and engine torque (opposing forces) the tires are not equally weighted in the rear ( when you pull just one tire, the right rear tire has the most weight- hence, the need for an airbag)
so, limiting your tire pulling to just a few inches is ideal. Prostock cars, when watched closely, carry the front tire for quite some time, however, they are just a few inches off the ground
I hope that this clears some things up.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is exactly what I meant.. Wheelies are bad in excess. Pain and I can show the results as can Mikey.
11-05-2002, 08:07 AM
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Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... Yep the closer to the ground you can keep the car the faster it'll be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
There is also aerodynamic factor wasting ET as well as the wasted motion of going up vs forward. Wheelie bars on these cars will help a great deal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Chris
There is also aerodynamic factor wasting ET as well as the wasted motion of going up vs forward. Wheelie bars on these cars will help a great deal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Chris
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11-05-2002, 08:17 AM
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Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... [George Bush]
"Wheelies are bad... they're bad"
[/George Bush]
I can't speak for the others, but I have noticed that if my suspension is setup where the fronts only pull a couple inches, my '60, and most of my other numbers down the ticket seem to suffer somewhat. I have got my best numbers when the bottoms of the front tires hang aboot a foot or so. I haven't done it all that much...so take it with a grain of salt.
and like was said above...times suffer when they go much above that. Car suffers if you go to far <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> .
<small>[ November 05, 2002, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: PaiN ]</small>
"Wheelies are bad... they're bad"
[/George Bush]
I can't speak for the others, but I have noticed that if my suspension is setup where the fronts only pull a couple inches, my '60, and most of my other numbers down the ticket seem to suffer somewhat. I have got my best numbers when the bottoms of the front tires hang aboot a foot or so. I haven't done it all that much...so take it with a grain of salt.
and like was said above...times suffer when they go much above that. Car suffers if you go to far <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> .
<small>[ November 05, 2002, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: PaiN ]</small>
11-05-2002, 09:57 AM
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Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... Forward energy lost when the car lifts is turned into forward energy as the car comes down.
Wheel stands hurt when in excess..
Launching perfectly flat as opposed to lifting it .5 won't hurt nor will it help.. because of my first statement.
Wheel stands hurt when in excess..
Launching perfectly flat as opposed to lifting it .5 won't hurt nor will it help.. because of my first statement.
11-05-2002, 10:25 AM
#12
Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... I've got some excellent experience with this after this shootout. I got over 20 passes and the track was HOOKING hard. I played with all four of my HAL adjustable shocks, dialing them in during each pass.
When I ran them loose, the wheelstand looked cool (about a foot in the air) but it felt kind of jerky on the landing and I felt the weight of the car moving around. I cut a few 1.51-1.52 times on the loose settings, but it looked cool.
My best 60' times were with the shocks tighter all around. I cut a couple 1.47-1.48 times without lifting a tire more than an inch. I even cut one 1.48 without lifting the tire at all. The car felt more smooth coming out of the hole, and I could feel the acceleration more than the jerky/loose feeling with the shocks loose. Better control for sure!
People didn't realize how well my car was launching at the event because there was no "drama" coming from it. When they saw the timeslips they were in shock lol.
-Tony
When I ran them loose, the wheelstand looked cool (about a foot in the air) but it felt kind of jerky on the landing and I felt the weight of the car moving around. I cut a few 1.51-1.52 times on the loose settings, but it looked cool.
My best 60' times were with the shocks tighter all around. I cut a couple 1.47-1.48 times without lifting a tire more than an inch. I even cut one 1.48 without lifting the tire at all. The car felt more smooth coming out of the hole, and I could feel the acceleration more than the jerky/loose feeling with the shocks loose. Better control for sure!
People didn't realize how well my car was launching at the event because there was no "drama" coming from it. When they saw the timeslips they were in shock lol.
-Tony
11-05-2002, 10:39 AM
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Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... Tony's first pass was incredible, a 1.4x 60' and not even lifting a tire <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
It is nice to see that people are actually realizing pulling the wheels (in excess) doesnt help ET any. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
It is nice to see that people are actually realizing pulling the wheels (in excess) doesnt help ET any. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
11-05-2002, 10:43 AM
#15
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Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... "However ( and someone correct me if Im wrong) with the pinion torque and engine torque (opposing forces) the tires are not equally weighted in the rear ( when you pull just one tire, the right rear tire has the most weight- hence, the need for an airbag)
Incorrect. When the driveshaft causes the right side of the rearend to lift (as opposed to weight pushing the right rear of the body down which is not the case) you unload the right rear tire. You use an airbag (or better yet a properly setup anti-roll bar) to keep the right rear tire from lifting. Also realize that when you're lifting the right rear tire you're pushing the left rear tire downward giving it more traction.
The less body motion you can have WHILE STILL HOOKING the better. BUT, most often you gotta have some extra weight transfer (front end off the ground) to maintain traction.
I think what hurts ETs just as much as excessive wheelstands is the front end bouncing halfway down the track. This can easily be cured with a set of two way adjustable shocks. You can set the extension wherever you need it and stiffen the compression up enough to make for a nice planted landing.
<small>[ November 05, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Colonel ]</small>
Incorrect. When the driveshaft causes the right side of the rearend to lift (as opposed to weight pushing the right rear of the body down which is not the case) you unload the right rear tire. You use an airbag (or better yet a properly setup anti-roll bar) to keep the right rear tire from lifting. Also realize that when you're lifting the right rear tire you're pushing the left rear tire downward giving it more traction.
The less body motion you can have WHILE STILL HOOKING the better. BUT, most often you gotta have some extra weight transfer (front end off the ground) to maintain traction.
I think what hurts ETs just as much as excessive wheelstands is the front end bouncing halfway down the track. This can easily be cured with a set of two way adjustable shocks. You can set the extension wherever you need it and stiffen the compression up enough to make for a nice planted landing.
<small>[ November 05, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Colonel ]</small>
11-05-2002, 11:10 AM
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Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Colonel:
<strong>
I think what hurts ETs just as much as excessive wheelstands is the front end bouncing halfway down the track. This can easily be cured with a set of two way adjustable shocks. You can set the extension wherever you need it and stiffen the compression up enough to make for a nice planted landing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Also a good point, I can't even count how many cars at the shootout would yank the wheels and end up bouncing down the first part of the track.
When Coach got his car back from thunder (after the motor) and ran at TAD I filmed a few of his runs and we were able to get his 60's from low 1.6x's to high 1.5x's just from getting the front to stop bouncing, Coach is now pulling mid 1.4x's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
<strong>
I think what hurts ETs just as much as excessive wheelstands is the front end bouncing halfway down the track. This can easily be cured with a set of two way adjustable shocks. You can set the extension wherever you need it and stiffen the compression up enough to make for a nice planted landing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Also a good point, I can't even count how many cars at the shootout would yank the wheels and end up bouncing down the first part of the track.
When Coach got his car back from thunder (after the motor) and ran at TAD I filmed a few of his runs and we were able to get his 60's from low 1.6x's to high 1.5x's just from getting the front to stop bouncing, Coach is now pulling mid 1.4x's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
11-05-2002, 11:27 AM
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Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... Tony,
Out of curiousity what range was the stiffer setting in? Just curious where I should start from and play with when I go out for my first time with the new setup in a week or two.
Thanks
Out of curiousity what range was the stiffer setting in? Just curious where I should start from and play with when I go out for my first time with the new setup in a week or two.
Thanks
11-05-2002, 11:32 AM
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Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... in some forms of dragracing they need the car to wheelstand to get the tires to break the beam faster, but most of the time the car runs alittle slower. if you watch a prostock car leave, they actually wheelstand very slightly, but they really look like they are jumping forward instead just standing up and then leaving...just my .02 cents
11-05-2002, 04:04 PM
#20
Re: Wheelies are cool, but ..... The most basic argument I've always heard on this subject is based on logic.
If you launch a car and it squats hard enough to pull the front tires up, and the car isn't making enough power to get through the sixty foot quickly at the same time(maybe the motor, maybe too much tire, too much/little gear,etc) then its just wasted motion..the car will be going UP rather than FORWARD.
I've only made it to the track twice this year but from the last trip I realized I was having a dilema based on this. I had planned my setup to be for nitrous..my car yanks the front tires very evenly about 6 inches off the transbrake on motor..but the sixty foot is not there because my motor is not making as much power and my converter and 28" tires would like..that is my belief.
So my guestimate is that if I spray the car, it should solve this problem. The added HP should logically give the car the power to complete the forward motion, while still hanging the tires from the shock of the transbrake and the rear suspension.
Things I did to get my car to come out dead straight: big old BMR well in anti-roll bar on my 9" rearend..
Put the battery in back..BUT we put in in the driver's side rear..something no one ever does..this took the weight off the right side that traditionally squats too hard and twists the launch, and makes for a very even and balanced launch for my car.
I dunno..just a few cents..not sure what is worth to you guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
If you launch a car and it squats hard enough to pull the front tires up, and the car isn't making enough power to get through the sixty foot quickly at the same time(maybe the motor, maybe too much tire, too much/little gear,etc) then its just wasted motion..the car will be going UP rather than FORWARD.
I've only made it to the track twice this year but from the last trip I realized I was having a dilema based on this. I had planned my setup to be for nitrous..my car yanks the front tires very evenly about 6 inches off the transbrake on motor..but the sixty foot is not there because my motor is not making as much power and my converter and 28" tires would like..that is my belief.
So my guestimate is that if I spray the car, it should solve this problem. The added HP should logically give the car the power to complete the forward motion, while still hanging the tires from the shock of the transbrake and the rear suspension.
Things I did to get my car to come out dead straight: big old BMR well in anti-roll bar on my 9" rearend..
Put the battery in back..BUT we put in in the driver's side rear..something no one ever does..this took the weight off the right side that traditionally squats too hard and twists the launch, and makes for a very even and balanced launch for my car.
I dunno..just a few cents..not sure what is worth to you guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />