Dual valve springs supposed added security just snake oil??
10-21-2004, 07:02 PM
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Dual valve springs supposed added security just snake oil?? I am quoting Gman2002Z06 from another thread:
I have never heard this before and I really wanted some more feedback on it...
"You guys that are running the double spring set-ups...You really think that if the main spring breaks at 6000 rpms that the back-up spring will somehow keep the valve from floating and/or contacting a piston??? I look at the double spring set-ups like a snake oil elixer...Sure, they offer great seat pressures and allow you guys to run the big cams with very aggresive ramp rates...But...If the main spring lets go at high rpm, that back-up spring will not save you...
This is one of those mods that everyone jumps on the band wagon and thinks they are the greatest things since sliced bread...
Bottom line, if you drop a spring, be it a single or dual style...You will either be lucky and have minor damage or not so lucky and have some major damage...
I personally like the single springs...
Peace...Gman"
This is one of those mods that everyone jumps on the band wagon and thinks they are the greatest things since sliced bread...
Bottom line, if you drop a spring, be it a single or dual style...You will either be lucky and have minor damage or not so lucky and have some major damage...
I personally like the single springs...
Peace...Gman"
10-21-2004, 07:18 PM
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Yea well if he'd have been on this board for more then a month, then he would know that there's been over a dozen members that have had double springs that have had either their external or internal springs fail, while the corresponding one maintained the valve at a safe position until they could stop the car and shut it down. Thats not his fault, he hasn't been on the board long enough to know that. Now if he chooses to beleive me is his choice, but he's more then welcome to SEARCH and find the multiple examples I'm referring to.
Double valve springs ARE worth the money, and CAN save your motor. I would recommend them to anyone. Call and ask ANY sponser you want.....they'll tell you the same thing. If you run a big enough cam, you'll want to run a strong enough spring. Thats just how it goes.
Double valve springs ARE worth the money, and CAN save your motor. I would recommend them to anyone. Call and ask ANY sponser you want.....they'll tell you the same thing. If you run a big enough cam, you'll want to run a strong enough spring. Thats just how it goes.
Last edited by cyphur_traq; 10-21-2004 at 07:26 PM.
10-21-2004, 07:29 PM
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I thought that dual springs helped with not having valve float too, not just added security of a spring breaking. I could be wrong but that is what I have gathered from reading posted threads. I would also like to see the link to this post as well, so that I can read the rest of it.
10-21-2004, 08:03 PM
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they do help avoid valve float, you are right. here's the link:https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/226661-valve-spring-decision.html
10-21-2004, 09:01 PM
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Ask yourself this..
If you broke a valve spring at 6K would you..
A) not regret saving a few $ by buying single springs, because you are going to have a nice living room ornament. (Piston with valve stuck in it)
B) praise the person that talked you into dual springs because it gave the small inner spring a chance to ruin your luck at having that cool ornament on your living room.
Although I would like to have such an ornament, I do not want to make my own. I'd rather get it from someone else.
If you broke a valve spring at 6K would you..
A) not regret saving a few $ by buying single springs, because you are going to have a nice living room ornament. (Piston with valve stuck in it)
B) praise the person that talked you into dual springs because it gave the small inner spring a chance to ruin your luck at having that cool ornament on your living room.
Although I would like to have such an ornament, I do not want to make my own. I'd rather get it from someone else.
10-21-2004, 09:26 PM
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No question it's worth it to get the duals, heck in some cases its not even any more expensive. Both the Patriots and PRC dual kits are very well priced. I just wanted to know if there was something to what he was saying. I remembre Gman from LS1.com and I thought I remember him as being pretty knowledgeable, but not positive...
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10-21-2004, 10:04 PM
#8
I've personally had my motor saved numerous times because of the inner dual spring holding my valve when the outer broke. In the life of my car i've broken 7 valve springs, every time i've driven my car home 30+ miles with those broken springs and it has made it home every time, usually with no further damage. The last spring I broke however did result in a SLIGHTLY bent valve. 20 bucks at the machine shop, and 30 dollars worth of head bolts/gaskets and a few hours of work fixed the problem and got me back up and running.
I highly recommend dual valve springs to everyone
I highly recommend dual valve springs to everyone
10-21-2004, 10:25 PM
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Xaon,
Damn how did you manage to break so many springs! Sounds like you either need to upgrade springs and stop keeping the car pinned @ 7k rpm, lol.
Damn how did you manage to break so many springs! Sounds like you either need to upgrade springs and stop keeping the car pinned @ 7k rpm, lol.
10-22-2004, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by KB99WS6
Xaon,
Damn how did you manage to break so many springs! Sounds like you either need to upgrade springs and stop keeping the car pinned @ 7k rpm, lol.
Damn how did you manage to break so many springs! Sounds like you either need to upgrade springs and stop keeping the car pinned @ 7k rpm, lol.
He drives it like it's supposed to be driven. We mod these cars to go all out. I run Comp Cam 978 springs, and I have no doubt that if one were to break, that the inner spring would keep me from damaging my engine.
I actually got to see the entire setup these last few days while I was helicoiling and changing valve seals. Very beefy springs.
10-22-2004, 10:02 AM
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I've broken about 5 springs (comp 941's, and k-motion 750's), all of these springs had dampners, which I believed save the motor. I am now going to install crane dual springs this weekend. I would never buy a single spring unless I was going back to a factory configuration. It just makes sense to have the extra layer of protection.
10-22-2004, 11:31 AM
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Not to be off topic, but if any of you have ever worked on a motorcycle engine, many of which run up to and past 15,000 rpm, you would have a hard time finding ANY single springs. However, I must add that I have seen a good friend who once dropped a valve and it wiped out evrything, and he had double springs. However, it was a dropped valve, not a broken spring, and in this case I must agree, a dual spring may not be a guarantee of no damage, but it sure as hell does give SOME additional "insurance". Besides, as I am now an old geezer of 50 and can't stay bent under a hood or car as long as I once did, and with the prices not being that much different between choices, I will opt every time for the duals. In fact, after reading some of the posts here, I sent my 918's back and got duals instead. FWIW
10-22-2004, 12:42 PM
#17
Originally Posted by KB99WS6
Xaon,
Damn how did you manage to break so many springs! Sounds like you either need to upgrade springs and stop keeping the car pinned @ 7k rpm, lol.
Damn how did you manage to break so many springs! Sounds like you either need to upgrade springs and stop keeping the car pinned @ 7k rpm, lol.
I do drive my car pretty hard, I don't think there's ever been a time where i've driven the car and it hasn't gone to 7000 (well, other than when it was stock... then it would only go to 6200
)The springs I use (REV 1116) seem to work great for me... UNTIL they get about 17,000 miles on them, then they are a time bomb waiting to explode. Usually when one spring broke, another would follow suit, and there were a couple times where I just swapped out the broken springs with spare used ones until my new set arrived and i had the 2 hours to swap them all out.
I really probably should upgrade springs and I don't really recommend these ones to anyone that is out shopping for a new complete spring set, but since I already have the titanium retainers and hardened spring seats, it's so much easier and cheaper for me to just replace the $125 set of springs every 12-18 months than to spend $300+ on a totally new set up that I can't predict what they're going to do.
10-22-2004, 02:05 PM
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Another FWIW: As you may have figured, when younger I worked on/built/raced bikes. A well respected "guru" in the industry, dearly departed Mr. Gordon Jennings, once wrote a tech article about valve spring misconceptions. I don't recall every part of the article, but an important part of it I never forgot: Valve springs do NOT take a lot of power away from a motor. They merely store it. This of course applies to a multi cylinder engine, of which the LS1/Ls2/Ls6 most certainly apply. Jennings went on to say that a spring on one intake valve can and does take energy to open, and the stiffer the spring, the more energy is required. However, it also stores this energy, and after the valve reaches peak lift, as it beging to close, it releases a majority of the energy back into the engine via the camshafts closing ramp, which helps when another cylinder is opening its intake valve. I know this is a little long winded, and maybe a little off topic, but FWIW, I saw another post the other day in here where a member was concerned about using a too stiff spring. I believe this is akin to erring on the rich side of fuel calibrations, i.e., better a little too stiff than not stiff enough, especially if you miss a gear at 6800+!!
10-22-2004, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by grinder11
Another FWIW: As you may have figured, when younger I worked on/built/raced bikes. A well respected "guru" in the industry, dearly departed Mr. Gordon Jennings, once wrote a tech article about valve spring misconceptions. I don't recall every part of the article, but an important part of it I never forgot: Valve springs do NOT take a lot of power away from a motor. They merely store it. This of course applies to a multi cylinder engine, of which the LS1/Ls2/Ls6 most certainly apply. Jennings went on to say that a spring on one intake valve can and does take energy to open, and the stiffer the spring, the more energy is required. However, it also stores this energy, and after the valve reaches peak lift, as it beging to close, it releases a majority of the energy back into the engine via the camshafts closing ramp, which helps when another cylinder is opening its intake valve. I know this is a little long winded, and maybe a little off topic, but FWIW, I saw another post the other day in here where a member was concerned about using a too stiff spring. I believe this is akin to erring on the rich side of fuel calibrations, i.e., better a little too stiff than not stiff enough, especially if you miss a gear at 6800+!!
