NoOne

http://www.team.net/www/morgan/tech/whotools.html

Might help explain some things.

Camaro_Zach

iTrader: (19)

nice, thats good reading. makes you realize half of the "battle of the tools" is mental, other half is user error (the breaking part)

01SSRMS

iTrader: (7)

Nice info. thanks

robertbartsch

Interesting! I thought the admission by the Snap-On engineer that they over charge for everything was telling. Apparently, their customers dissagree becuase they keep buying....

When I compare Stanley and MAC hand tools, the forgings are definately different. Even if they are made in the same factory, the metal, heat treating, finishing, polishing, chroming, etc. could be drastically different.

The quality tools seem to fit much better. In my mind, the real question is whether Snap-On, MAC, Matco are worth 10 times the price of the cheap crap like Craftsman and Stanley?

Camaro_Zach

iTrader: (19)

Yes they are worth 10 times the price, this has been discussed in a few threads. its like saying the cavlier and the vette both come from chevrolet, is it worth the extra cash. just cause its made or owned by a company, doesnt mean its the same quality or even castings.

robertbartsch

Camaro-Zach:
OK - So you are willing to pay 10 times as much for a MAC tool than a similar Stanley - which is a good decision for you.

For me, however, I can't see the price/value relationship - so I'll buy the cheap crap (Stanley/Craftsman) every time.

As they say, to each their own....

Camaro_Zach

iTrader: (19)

Read up son, then comment.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/tools-fabrication/288080-craftsman-club-rip-off.html

its not me, its every mechanic on earth theres a reason snap on, mac, and matco are all in business and doing quite well i might add...

http://www.zacks.com/research/report...pd=1&x=12&y=10

and for the record i am not willing to pay 10x more, im not a mechanic, my life goes on if i break 5 tools in one day, my income doesnt come to a hault. also, i use mine in an entire summer what a mechanic uses their tools in a one week span. Please dont forget you are using your tools on a brand new car, not some rust bucket thats not taken care of. this is what people fail to realize all the time. your bolts are all brand new, hard, and rust free (surface rust doesnt count )

robertbartsch

Camaro Zach
OK; great - I agree with you.

Not all people who use tools are professional mechanics, however. In addition, many good pro mechanics also use the cheap crap and they get by fine.

I have six large boxes - 3 floor cabnets and 3 top cabnets. the sets are each about 5 feet high - all stuffed with cheap tools (Stanley, Craftsman, Popular Mechanics, S-K, etc.). I collect them as a hobby.

No. I'm not a mechanic.

Shamrock98TA

The addendum by the Snap-on tool designer is no longer true.

It might have been true when ratchets were made in Mt Carmel, IL. That is no longer the case as the Elizabethton plant (who does the wrenches, pullers, and ratchets) does not make any Kobalt tools. They make a few other brands such as Williams, CAT, and Harely Davidson. The forgings for all three use different dies, but the same process. The machining is done the same by the same NON-UNION people. I think Williams is the only one who doesn't have a few of their tools polished though.

I hope this clears things up slightly
Luke Pilk
Manufacturing Engineer
Snap-on Tools
Elizabethton Mfg Plant

robertbartsch

Shamerock:
Can you comment of the steel that is used to forge the tools; is it the same from manufacteror to manufacteror?

What about the heat treating process; the same too?

When they did the American Choppper show on TV they took us to the SNap-On factory. The sockets and wrenches were COLD forged and then heat treated and plated. Is this the standard deal these days or is this unique to Snap-On?

Shamrock98TA

I can't go into a lot of detail because of trade secrets, but will give a brief explanation.

The same steel is used for each brand. I'm not for sure on exactly what rockwell each brand and product is heat treated to (things vary slighty, depending on what it is and what it will be used for. They are heat treated in the same furnaces though.

The sockets are made in Milwaukee, I've never visted that plant. I've only seen how things are done here and in the JC plant, which does screwdrivers and a few other small things. We do not use any cold forging here or in JC. Without going into a lot of detail, after being forged, they are annealed, machined, heat treated, then they will receive a finish of whatever sort they require.

I haven't seen the episode of American Choppers where they tour the plant. I don't know what wrenches they make there, but it must be specialty, because we make at least 95% of Snap-on's wrenches. We're the biggest manufacturing site Snap-on has.

robertbartsch

I know zippo about metal forging but the American Chopper eposode was interesting. Paul Jr. and Senior were making a tribute bike to honor the Snap-On company's 90th (???) year.

Anyway, as I remember, during the factory demo they showed sockets and wrenches being cold forged from single steel bars??????? That is what they said, I thought. Was this pure Bull?

This seemed to stick in my mind since the Pauls took a bunch of tools back home to Orange County NY that were neither heat treated nor polished. They said this was necessary to bend and weld the raw tools into various bike parts including, wheels (S-shaped brake wrenches), a throttle (raw 12-point socket), handle bar risers, (open-end wrenches), foot brake levers (ratchets) and other cool stuff. After they fabricated the parts they sent them to a local metal guy who chromed them.

I prefer the factory HDs but, I have to admit, the show is one of my favorites. The best segments are when they yell at each other. I live a few miles from their shop. Some day, I will go over there and watch them fight in person.

Shamrock98TA

Like I said, I've never been to the milwaukee plant and don't know anyone there, I don't know what kind of forging they do. However, I would be suprised if they are cold forged, I think they just made a mistake on the show.

We use what are called billets, they're just pieces of round steel stock cut to a certain length, they'll have different diameters depending on what they are being forged into.

I've seen the Snap-on chopper in person, it's pretty neat. When I moved into my new office a couple of months ago (it used to be the material manager's office) he had left a box of prints of the bike, they must have gave them away at one time or something. I kept a few of them and even framed one fo them.

Here it is:

robertbartsch

Yeh, I asked our neighbor who is a Snap-On dealer if the bike was in the sales catalog. Apparently, it is not.

Therefore, you should urge the CEO and marketing guys to put the picture of the bike on the cover next year...

Shamrock98TA

Thinking about it a little more, what they probably said or meant to say, was the sockets were made from cold rolled steel stock.

I really can't see any reason to forge a socket, except for maybe extemely large shallow sockets.

If I were making them, I'd just have a bar feeder sliding stock into a lathe. Have it machine the inside of the socket, turn down the outside, then cut it off. It seems to me that would be the fastest and best way to make a socket.

BottleRocket

here is how i see it:

Snap-On - Buy a ratchet, use it alot, it breaks. wait around for the snap-on guy, he fixes it and hope it doesnt break again.

Craftsman - Buy a ratchet, use it alot, it breaks. drive a few minutes to sears, throw the ratchet at them and walk out with a brand new one. if it breaks, repeat.

Shamrock98TA

Well, I was wrong about this, the sockets are cold forged. I spoke with another engineer from corporate and he confrmed this.

Shamrock98TA

First off, he doesn't repair it, he replaces it.

Secondly, and this is the hard part for most people to get, Snap-on isn't marketed towards the shadetree mechanic, who would only have one 3/8 ratchet. A professional mechanic should have a couple of just about everything.

Third, the snap-on ratchet will last longer and is less likely to wear out or break.

People have got to start realizing the Snap-on's target audience isn't the average do-it-youselfer. For someone who just tinkers around every now and then, Craftsman is great. Good quality at afforable prices. For someone who uses his tools for a living, Snap-on is a better tool.

Brains

iTrader: (7)

I've gotten 15 years of aggressive shade-tree mechanic work out of my Craftsman tools. For the cost delta, I'd say they've held up just fine. I don't have to replace my ratchets too often, but I WOULD like to have ones with a finer tooth action than the Craftsman. But, they work and I still have cash for mods after buying them.

maddboost

iTrader: (11)

The nice thing about Snap On tools is you dont have to go to Sears to have it replaced like Craftsman usually our Snap On guy either has it on the truck or can get it for me in the next day or so. I personally use Craftsman tools at home but all our mechanics here at the shop use Snap On and they will all agree that they hold up alot longer than and take more use than Craftsman tools do.