Tial 44mm Wastegate issue, HELP!
10-08-2006, 12:36 AM
#1
Tial 44mm Wastegate issue, HELP! SO if you followed my thread, I got tuned today for my new T76gts build on a stock bottom LS1, patriot LQ9 heads, and an AFR nitrous cam (don't ask).
Made some insane power before my fuel pump got maxxed out (652/627 letting off at ~5500rpms). One factor was that my boost was creeping to 10-11 psi even though I have a 8.7psi wategate spring....no boost controller.
How can this be? I thought I heard Rick say something about the camshaft profile, or exhaust being too efficient causing it..... but I couldn't really hear over my god damn car idleing
(I could have heard wrong though).
Please offer any advice on why my tial 44mm wastegate with an 8.7psi spring isn't bleeding off boost over 8.7 psi.
Thanks!
Made some insane power before my fuel pump got maxxed out (652/627 letting off at ~5500rpms). One factor was that my boost was creeping to 10-11 psi even though I have a 8.7psi wategate spring....no boost controller.
How can this be? I thought I heard Rick say something about the camshaft profile, or exhaust being too efficient causing it..... but I couldn't really hear over my god damn car idleing
(I could have heard wrong though).Please offer any advice on why my tial 44mm wastegate with an 8.7psi spring isn't bleeding off boost over 8.7 psi.
Thanks!
10-08-2006, 12:46 AM
#2
It could be plumbed wrong or damaged.crimped signal lines. Where are you drawing signal from? It there a top and bottom feed into the gate?... these lines are often necessary for the diaphram to work correct... If all else fails, remove the gate completely and see what PSI you get.... that can be a part of the trouble shooting process ... In the case of my CAS system, even with the gates removed I made a creeping 8 lbs..so it was system design there.. in your case, it should be easier...
10-08-2006, 12:53 AM
#3
When we first started tuning it, I had the WG line hooked up to a fitting that was not vaccum, and Rick at Synergy stopped the dyno pull at 4k rpms because it was at 14psi and maxed out the 2 bar 
Then we moved it.............
There is a vaccum line that goes from my brake booster line--> my BOV. And there is a T about 8 inches from the BOV that runs to the WG.
Then we moved it.............There is a vaccum line that goes from my brake booster line--> my BOV. And there is a T about 8 inches from the BOV that runs to the WG.
10-08-2006, 08:57 PM
#7
I think those vac lines are the issue. I suggest you deo a little reseach there. I drive my BOV directly from the intake and often grab WG signal from the compressor or somewhere before the TB. Grabbing before or after the IC will have different results as most IC's create a pressure drop. I would not use a "t" with the bov and brakes. http://www.tialsport.com/documents/w..._wginstall.pdf
http://www.tialsport.com/documents/w...22tial%2044%22
http://www.tialsport.com/documents/w...22tial%2044%22
Last edited by Jammer; 10-08-2006 at 09:08 PM.
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10-08-2006, 09:07 PM
#8
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my gate 44mm has 2 nipples and the mechanic said there is no use for the top one so we use the side nipple but i still have the same problem as nintres! does my bov has vacume reference strait off the manifold! could his bov have to much spring no letting enough boost out?
his vaccum sourch is coming almost directly of the BOV like an inch away
bump
his vaccum sourch is coming almost directly of the BOV like an inch away
bump
10-08-2006, 09:16 PM
#9
Originally Posted by TondSS
my gate 44mm has 2 nipples and the mechanic said there is no use for the top one so we use the side nipple but i still have the same problem as nintres! does my bov has vacume reference strait off the manifold! could his bov have to much spring no letting enough boost out?
his vaccum sourch is coming almost directly of the BOV like an inch away
bump
his vaccum sourch is coming almost directly of the BOV like an inch away
bump
In my rear mount system, I wasnt boosting high enough so I drove the backside of the diaphram with pressure from the turbo compressor..this push on the diaphram and helped keep the gate closed for more boost... but there was a vac line hooked to the underside of the gate , and that feed had the manual controoler in it..the manual controlled would modulate the amount of pressure allowed to fight the spring and pressure from the other pressure source. Take a moment and think how the gate works and you'll figure it out.
The spring is trying to keep the gate valve closed... the nipple behind the spring assists the spring, the nipple on the valve side helps fiht the spring.. a boost controller can modulate either side essentially. Not all systems work how the manufacturer suggests, but were dealing with physics here.
TondSS, you need to see if the top one is open to atmosphere too... and generally that oine is used primarily to help increase boost, of to better control creeping or peaking.
10-08-2006, 09:29 PM
#10
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found some cool threads for you to read sean~!
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...be+boost+creep
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...be+boost+creep
10-08-2006, 10:47 PM
#12
As I see it...
the line going to the lower nipple helps open the spring, as without that line, sometimes the spring will NEVER open..it needs the pressure to operate properly (while what i just typed is held tru, in my case, I saw some uncommon things I wont get into here).
The top nipple you have would usually be used if you needed to supply pressure to help the spring stay closed to increase boost levels. Many people dont use both nipples, but many people dont have, or think they have issues. Using both nipples can allow for better control if done properly. I still thin the schematic from Tial explain the hook-up well enough for most people.
the line going to the lower nipple helps open the spring, as without that line, sometimes the spring will NEVER open..it needs the pressure to operate properly (while what i just typed is held tru, in my case, I saw some uncommon things I wont get into here).
The top nipple you have would usually be used if you needed to supply pressure to help the spring stay closed to increase boost levels. Many people dont use both nipples, but many people dont have, or think they have issues. Using both nipples can allow for better control if done properly. I still thin the schematic from Tial explain the hook-up well enough for most people.
10-09-2006, 12:10 AM
#14
Originally Posted by Rick@Synergy
I would think the boost creep is from the Wastegate not being big enough. Time to step it up to a 50-60mm.
Rick
Rick
How come some people get away with a 44mm making 900+hp? Is it because of where mine is placed and how my crossover flows like mad right by it?
10-09-2006, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Rick@Synergy
I would think the boost creep is from the Wastegate not being big enough. Time to step it up to a 50-60mm.
Rick
Rick
late night lurkn tight 
10-09-2006, 08:42 AM
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Keep in mind a WG helps you make LESS power -- not more 
Its there to bleed off the exhaust flow so it doesn't spin the turbo. Making 900 is often easier than making 500 when it comes to sizing the wastegate.
Pressure on the bottom nipple tries to OPEN the gate. Pressure on the top nipple tries to CLOSE the gate. With a boost controller managing air pressure to the top nipple, you can hold the gate shut at a pressure HIGHER than the spring you have in the gate, since you have air pushing the gate shut in addition to the spring. Conversely if you hook up a pressurized feed to the bottom port, you'll effectively make the spring weaker and it'll open almost immediately. In the most simple setup, leave both nipples unhooked and you'll run on the spring alone. Hook up a pressure feed through a boost controller/valve to the TOP nipple, and you can boost OVER your normal WG-only level. Hook it up to the bottom, and you boost UNDER your normal WG-only level.
Its there to bleed off the exhaust flow so it doesn't spin the turbo. Making 900 is often easier than making 500 when it comes to sizing the wastegate.Pressure on the bottom nipple tries to OPEN the gate. Pressure on the top nipple tries to CLOSE the gate. With a boost controller managing air pressure to the top nipple, you can hold the gate shut at a pressure HIGHER than the spring you have in the gate, since you have air pushing the gate shut in addition to the spring. Conversely if you hook up a pressurized feed to the bottom port, you'll effectively make the spring weaker and it'll open almost immediately. In the most simple setup, leave both nipples unhooked and you'll run on the spring alone. Hook up a pressure feed through a boost controller/valve to the TOP nipple, and you can boost OVER your normal WG-only level. Hook it up to the bottom, and you boost UNDER your normal WG-only level.
10-09-2006, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Brains
Keep in mind a WG helps you make LESS power -- not more Its there to bleed off the exhaust flow so it doesn't spin the turbo. Making 900 is often easier than making 500 when it comes to sizing the wastegate.
Pressure on the bottom nipple tries to OPEN the gate. Pressure on the top nipple tries to CLOSE the gate. With a boost controller managing air pressure to the top nipple, you can hold the gate shut at a pressure HIGHER than the spring you have in the gate, since you have air pushing the gate shut in addition to the spring. Conversely if you hook up a pressurized feed to the bottom port, you'll effectively make the spring weaker and it'll open almost immediately. In the most simple setup, leave both nipples unhooked and you'll run on the spring alone. Hook up a pressure feed through a boost controller/valve to the TOP nipple, and you can boost OVER your normal WG-only level. Hook it up to the bottom, and you boost UNDER your normal WG-only level.
Its there to bleed off the exhaust flow so it doesn't spin the turbo. Making 900 is often easier than making 500 when it comes to sizing the wastegate.Pressure on the bottom nipple tries to OPEN the gate. Pressure on the top nipple tries to CLOSE the gate. With a boost controller managing air pressure to the top nipple, you can hold the gate shut at a pressure HIGHER than the spring you have in the gate, since you have air pushing the gate shut in addition to the spring. Conversely if you hook up a pressurized feed to the bottom port, you'll effectively make the spring weaker and it'll open almost immediately. In the most simple setup, leave both nipples unhooked and you'll run on the spring alone. Hook up a pressure feed through a boost controller/valve to the TOP nipple, and you can boost OVER your normal WG-only level. Hook it up to the bottom, and you boost UNDER your normal WG-only level.
10-09-2006, 11:51 AM
#20
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I dont see how leaving the vac lines off the wastgate will help the gate do its job. Its designed to use the vac reference for boost and such.
The line was originally off Nintres's wastegate and it went well past its spring pressure. Then we hooked up the line in the correct spot and did alot better.
Rick
The line was originally off Nintres's wastegate and it went well past its spring pressure. Then we hooked up the line in the correct spot and did alot better.
Rick