Stage II heads VS. Stage I heads track results within. What’s wrong?
01-25-2003, 09:32 PM
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Stage II heads VS. Stage I heads track results within. What’s wrong? Well, just came back from Las Vegas Motor Speedway with my new Morgan Stage II Heads. Before that, I had A&A Stage I heads.
<b>With A&A Stage I Heads:</b>
60’ 1.932
330 5.380
1/8 8.203
mph 87.37
1000 10.624
¼ <b>12.628</b>
mph 112.97
Notes: Launched at 3.5k rpm with a clutch dump. Kuhmo MX tire at 26psi.
60’ 2.014
330 5.510
1/8 8.323
mph 88.02
1000 10.727
¼ 12.733
mph 111.13
Notes: Launched at 3.5k rpm with a clutch dump. Kuhmo MX tire at 26psi.
60’ 2.127
330 5.697
1/8 85.16
mph 87.53
1000 10.932
¼ 12.934
mph <b>113.19</b>
Notes: Launched at 2.5k rpm with a clutch dump. Kuhmo MX tire at 28psi. Hit the rev limiter in 2nd.
These are the only times I have with my newest Kuhmo tires, which hooks way better then my older GoodYear and Nitto 555 junks.
<b>With MMS Stage II Heads:</b>
60’ 1.937
330 5.404
1/8 8.228
mph 87.42
1000 10.650
¼ 12.670
mph 111.81
Notes: Launched at 4k rpm with a clutch dump. Kuhmo MX tire at 20psi. Bogged.
60’ 1.949
330 5.360
1/8 8.171
mph 87.50
1000 10.591
¼ 12.615
mph 110.46
Notes: Launched at 5k rpm with a clutch dump. Kuhmo MX tire at 20psi. Bogged.
60’ 1.901
330 5.309
1/8 8.111
mph 87.99
1000 10.522
¼ <b>12.530</b>
mph <b>112.88</b>
Notes: Launched at 5k rpm with a clutch dump. Kuhmo MX tire at 20psi. Bogged.
The weather between the days is about 10 degrees. It was around 60 degrees at the Stage I track and 70 degrees today. The track today is prepped way better today. As you can notice that I am dumping the clutch at 5k rpm and the car bogged down to about 4k rpm and picked up… My clutch was slipping a little bit initially but it hooks ups fine right after the initial dump. The tires did not slip at all!!! The track prep was great and the Kuhmo MX tires just hook!!!
As you can see that I only beat my best Stage I time by only .098 seconds. And my mph was actually slower. It seems to me that my time as actually better because of better track prep and not my stage II heads. I let my friend drive it too, he tried twice and the best he could do was only 12.821@111.23. Two of the 5 runs today, the car threw a P1514 code right after the trap. PCM throws the code when the PCM detects that actual airflow (MAF) and Speed Density is much greater then the expected (calculated) airflow rate. We checked the connections to the TB, MAF and everything seems to be OK. The PCM was tuned for the cam and stage I heads back in August and I have not tuned the PCM for the stage II. The Stage II heads were put in my car last weekend and I was driving the car everyday without problem.
What do you think the problem is? I need tuning? Stage I heads are as good as stage II heads? What?
<b>With A&A Stage I Heads:</b>
60’ 1.932
330 5.380
1/8 8.203
mph 87.37
1000 10.624
¼ <b>12.628</b>
mph 112.97
Notes: Launched at 3.5k rpm with a clutch dump. Kuhmo MX tire at 26psi.
60’ 2.014
330 5.510
1/8 8.323
mph 88.02
1000 10.727
¼ 12.733
mph 111.13
Notes: Launched at 3.5k rpm with a clutch dump. Kuhmo MX tire at 26psi.
60’ 2.127
330 5.697
1/8 85.16
mph 87.53
1000 10.932
¼ 12.934
mph <b>113.19</b>
Notes: Launched at 2.5k rpm with a clutch dump. Kuhmo MX tire at 28psi. Hit the rev limiter in 2nd.
These are the only times I have with my newest Kuhmo tires, which hooks way better then my older GoodYear and Nitto 555 junks.
<b>With MMS Stage II Heads:</b>
60’ 1.937
330 5.404
1/8 8.228
mph 87.42
1000 10.650
¼ 12.670
mph 111.81
Notes: Launched at 4k rpm with a clutch dump. Kuhmo MX tire at 20psi. Bogged.
60’ 1.949
330 5.360
1/8 8.171
mph 87.50
1000 10.591
¼ 12.615
mph 110.46
Notes: Launched at 5k rpm with a clutch dump. Kuhmo MX tire at 20psi. Bogged.
60’ 1.901
330 5.309
1/8 8.111
mph 87.99
1000 10.522
¼ <b>12.530</b>
mph <b>112.88</b>
Notes: Launched at 5k rpm with a clutch dump. Kuhmo MX tire at 20psi. Bogged.
The weather between the days is about 10 degrees. It was around 60 degrees at the Stage I track and 70 degrees today. The track today is prepped way better today. As you can notice that I am dumping the clutch at 5k rpm and the car bogged down to about 4k rpm and picked up… My clutch was slipping a little bit initially but it hooks ups fine right after the initial dump. The tires did not slip at all!!! The track prep was great and the Kuhmo MX tires just hook!!!
As you can see that I only beat my best Stage I time by only .098 seconds. And my mph was actually slower. It seems to me that my time as actually better because of better track prep and not my stage II heads. I let my friend drive it too, he tried twice and the best he could do was only 12.821@111.23. Two of the 5 runs today, the car threw a P1514 code right after the trap. PCM throws the code when the PCM detects that actual airflow (MAF) and Speed Density is much greater then the expected (calculated) airflow rate. We checked the connections to the TB, MAF and everything seems to be OK. The PCM was tuned for the cam and stage I heads back in August and I have not tuned the PCM for the stage II. The Stage II heads were put in my car last weekend and I was driving the car everyday without problem.
What do you think the problem is? I need tuning? Stage I heads are as good as stage II heads? What?
01-25-2003, 10:44 PM
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Re: Stage II heads VS. Stage I heads track results within. What’s wrong? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by thechef:
<strong> i think you need tuning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
but then again what is it that you are looking for you are not going to see HUGE gains </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A&A stage I heads are basically stock heads with polished intake and exhaust bowls. The intake runners, the exhaust runners, and the chambers are left stock and rough. It does have larger valves though.
The Morgain heads, on the other hand, are ported and polished every where. With bigger valves also, they definitely flow much better.
<strong> i think you need tuning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
but then again what is it that you are looking for you are not going to see HUGE gains </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A&A stage I heads are basically stock heads with polished intake and exhaust bowls. The intake runners, the exhaust runners, and the chambers are left stock and rough. It does have larger valves though.
The Morgain heads, on the other hand, are ported and polished every where. With bigger valves also, they definitely flow much better.
01-25-2003, 11:24 PM
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Re: Stage II heads VS. Stage I heads track results within. What’s wrong? Are you using the stock cam, and exhaust manifolds? If so, that could be your problem. A cam with longer duration and higher lift can unleash that newfound flow you have.
Remember, all parts must work together as a system. What other parts are you using with the stage II heads?
Paul J.
Remember, all parts must work together as a system. What other parts are you using with the stage II heads?
Paul J.
01-26-2003, 12:28 AM
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Re: Stage II heads VS. Stage I heads track results within. What’s wrong? Properly done bowl and short turn work on the stage 1's could easily be as good or better than a mediocre set of stage II's. Valve selection and the valve jogb is also a deal breaker.
Do you have flow numbers for both sets of heads?
Do you have flow numbers for both sets of heads?
01-26-2003, 01:41 AM
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Re: Stage II heads VS. Stage I heads track results within. What’s wrong? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you using the stock cam, and exhaust manifolds? If so, that could be your problem. A cam with longer duration and higher lift can unleash that newfound flow you have.
Remember, all parts must work together as a system. What other parts are you using with the stage II heads?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The cam is the Morgan Motorsports cam: 224 .566" 114LS. The Morgan Motorsports Stage II heads are designed to work with their cam. To think that I switched from A&A heads to Morgan Heads would really make everything work better. There are several similiar set up on the internet that has being running around 410 to 420 rwhp at the dyno. I have RK Sport Long tubes, X-pipe, A&A Exhaust mod, VaraRam intake, MAF ends, and tuning with the A&A heads.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Properly done bowl and short turn work on the stage 1's could easily be as good or better than a mediocre set of stage II's. Valve selection and the valve jogb is also a deal breaker.
Do you have flow numbers for both sets of heads? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, no flow numbers on the A&A heads. I am sure somebody has Morgan Stage II heads' flow number? As they are very popular in the west coast? They both have stainless steel 2.02" valves on the intake and 1.6" valves on the exhaust. Both have competition 3 angle valve jobs....
Remember, all parts must work together as a system. What other parts are you using with the stage II heads?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The cam is the Morgan Motorsports cam: 224 .566" 114LS. The Morgan Motorsports Stage II heads are designed to work with their cam. To think that I switched from A&A heads to Morgan Heads would really make everything work better. There are several similiar set up on the internet that has being running around 410 to 420 rwhp at the dyno. I have RK Sport Long tubes, X-pipe, A&A Exhaust mod, VaraRam intake, MAF ends, and tuning with the A&A heads.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Properly done bowl and short turn work on the stage 1's could easily be as good or better than a mediocre set of stage II's. Valve selection and the valve jogb is also a deal breaker.
Do you have flow numbers for both sets of heads? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, no flow numbers on the A&A heads. I am sure somebody has Morgan Stage II heads' flow number? As they are very popular in the west coast? They both have stainless steel 2.02" valves on the intake and 1.6" valves on the exhaust. Both have competition 3 angle valve jobs....
01-26-2003, 11:31 PM
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Re: Stage II heads VS. Stage I heads track results within. What’s wrong? Benelliwang,
Did you buy the heads from us, if so when? If not, do you know how old the heads are? Have they been freshened up?
Let me point out a few things.
1. I wouldn't expect any more than 20 RWHP going from a stage I to a Stage II head.
2. Stage II heads tend to have larger port volumes. This will slow down the port velocity and tend to see gains in the mid to upper RPM range.
3. To compensate for low end loses you will most likely have to redo the timing curve to bring back the low end torque and throttle response. Two things happen, one you lose some port efficiency at low RPM and two you may be reading a different area on the timing tables resulting in less timing.
4. Tracks at altitude (Vegas is up there) will see less improvements because you really need smaller port higer velocity when the air is thin and you lose a lot of torque. This is why stock headed small cam cars perform well in areas with 2000+ ft altitude.
5. Your compression may be lower. If your stage 1's were willed .030"+ you may be pushing close to 11.0:1 vs our stage II's which have chamber work and end up around 10.6:1
With that said given the 10 degree hotter weather it's not a bad first outing. My guess is the a/f and timing maps are off and you will see some nice midragange power gains from tuning.
All said and done if you get 2 tenths and 2 mph at Vegas it will be a good gain. You will see better gains in low DA tracks.
I would consider addressing the exhaust side of your car. Running off road pipes with cutouts will pick up a lot. Now that the heads flow more you have to take advantage of them. After that a set of gears will work wonders to keep the RPM in the sweet spot.
I wouldn't worry about the cam too much. We've setup our heads to reach peak flow by .600" lift max.
Did you buy the heads from us, if so when? If not, do you know how old the heads are? Have they been freshened up?
Let me point out a few things.
1. I wouldn't expect any more than 20 RWHP going from a stage I to a Stage II head.
2. Stage II heads tend to have larger port volumes. This will slow down the port velocity and tend to see gains in the mid to upper RPM range.
3. To compensate for low end loses you will most likely have to redo the timing curve to bring back the low end torque and throttle response. Two things happen, one you lose some port efficiency at low RPM and two you may be reading a different area on the timing tables resulting in less timing.
4. Tracks at altitude (Vegas is up there) will see less improvements because you really need smaller port higer velocity when the air is thin and you lose a lot of torque. This is why stock headed small cam cars perform well in areas with 2000+ ft altitude.
5. Your compression may be lower. If your stage 1's were willed .030"+ you may be pushing close to 11.0:1 vs our stage II's which have chamber work and end up around 10.6:1
With that said given the 10 degree hotter weather it's not a bad first outing. My guess is the a/f and timing maps are off and you will see some nice midragange power gains from tuning.
All said and done if you get 2 tenths and 2 mph at Vegas it will be a good gain. You will see better gains in low DA tracks.
I would consider addressing the exhaust side of your car. Running off road pipes with cutouts will pick up a lot. Now that the heads flow more you have to take advantage of them. After that a set of gears will work wonders to keep the RPM in the sweet spot.
I wouldn't worry about the cam too much. We've setup our heads to reach peak flow by .600" lift max.