all-AM-muscle

iTrader: (3)

Hello everyone,
This is my first time looking deeply into LS1's (this past week). to start out im not clueless around cars, although i have more to learn than i know, i know more about mechanical than electrical, and classic than modern. Its getting time for college, and my parents would like me to have a little bigger car (my dad just wants another project). so were looking at either a camaro or firebird (70-73 camaro or 67-73 firebird). now, this is all still in the works and wont be followed through until the middle of summer, but hypothetically, lets say we got a 71 camaro for this post and that were on a pretty tight budget, were only putting money into the drivetrain, no interior compforts and it HAS to be a manual (looking at a camaro, no engine/trans for $1800) Ive been looking on ebay for an LS1/t56 combo for about $3500, but are these reliable enough to stick into a car, and expect to run for another 30k-50k miles relatively smoothely, if it has < 88k on it already, or will it need a full rebuild costing $5000+ ? How hard is it putting an LS1 + t56 into a 2nd gen camaro, are the motor and trans mounts the only things that need to be modified to put in if the cars having no a/c - just the essentials? Thanks guys for reading this long-ish post, i hope its clear enough to understand, if not i can clarify my questions. thanks in advance!

staringback05

iTrader: (8)

with ebay your always going into a gamble, you might get a great motor, you might get a lemon just the chance your going to have to take...just look at it as a learning experience either way

ls1canuck

puting the engine in is really easy. A set of mount plate adapters for the engine and an altered trans mount is all. If you are not comfortable with wiring you will have to get the factory harness reworked, or purchase a new harness. Installing the harness is also easy, just plug in the connectors, hook up power, ground, ign. The issues with doing this swap are simply the time it takes to get familiar with everything, and overcome the little roadblocks. If you have the time and patients, you can definately do it. As far as reliablility of high mileage motors, its simply a roll of the dice whether or not you get a good one. I got my engine/trans on ebay 2 years ago complete with harness and accesories with only 29000 miles for $3500

all-AM-muscle

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the info, its understandable the risks of purchasing an engine on ebay, but that place has an ebay store, and has made at least a thousand transactions, and seems pertty reputable, so i feel compfortable with the buyer (they say they test it before taking it out of the car as well). ls1canuck, the way you put it wiring sounds pertty easy, but if we tried getting it going, but couldnt, is it possible to just caberate the LS1, and basically treat it like a 1st gen small block, or are there components that must be wired, reguardless of FI or not?

67rsss

iTrader: (4)

Switching to carb is a bit pricey yet. The wiring isn't terribly difficult, we are doing it right now on a 1st gen. We did have the factory harness modified by speartech, and it has gone pretty smoothly. You will need to address a few things that you did not mention yet. Exhaust will have to be done, and for a budget build, look at using the 00-02 exhaust manifolds. Flow pretty nice, and should fit just fine. You will need to modify the oilpan to clear the steering linkage and crossmember. There are a bunch of little things in hooking up all the fluids, and you need to have a good fuel system capable of supplying 58psi. There are a lot of ways of dealing with the intake tract and MAF, and you will have to have your driveshaft made/modified. The computer absolutely must be reprogrammed for the swap, none of this is super difficult, but it isn't a weekend job. Some guys have pulled off a basic swap on the cheap for less than $2K + motor/trans. Some of us spend considerably more. You will need an electric fan setup to work with the LSx as well, no provisions for a fan unless you look at a truck motor. Good luck!!!

ls1canuck

There is still wiring involved to do a carb. I don't know exactly what is involved but you still have to use the factory ignition coils and many of the sensors so its just different not necessarily easier. In my opinion the beauty of this engine is the fuel injection. The computer controlled power band and no quirky carb problems. It runs perfect warm or cold, and never stumbles from idle to redline. A carb can't be tuned to give maximum performance from for the whole rpm range, but with fuel inj. the computer does. If you want to use a carb just put in a regular 350, it would likely be cheaper too.

all-AM-muscle

iTrader: (3)

I completely agree, i love the fuel injected aspect of this conversion, we'd likely keep it, but my dads an old school carb guy (this would be the first fuel injected car either of us has worked on), he also likes having backup plans in case the first doesnt work out, its good to know its possible. if you can get a LS1 AND a t56 manual for ~$4000, thats perfect, were building a 383 ci 1st gen small block, and parts alone cost $3500. our goals just to stay around the $4000 mark for this engine/trans- if possible (since i have to pay for part of it).
I had no idea that the fuel pressure had to be that high, good to know. ive got the exhaust covered, manifolds sound good, we'll probably stick to that, but ive been dreaming of electric cutouts on this.

I appriciate all this info that should make the conversion relatively pain free - thanks, anything else to look out for? I also just have to say this forum is the most knowledgeable that ive been to!! - thanks again.

67rsss

iTrader: (4)

There are a few threads in the stickies you really need to read. What you need to do for a first gen isn't much different from a second gen. You really want to have a complete plan down on paper before you buy anything. While no how-to manual, and certainly not all inclusive, our thread on putting an LS1/T56 into a 67 will cover some of the pitfalls you may run into...

all-AM-muscle

iTrader: (3)

...wow thats a really good sticky, i guess i overlooked that, thanks

joelvette

iTrader: (11)

if you use brp mounts you will not need to modify the oil pan.

1st and goal

iTrader: (6)

Not to be negative but these words are not associated with an LSX swap....
Actually the taboo word was "Tight", things can be done on a budget but things add up fast.

Some new sensors may be needed, the fuel system needs to be reworked (fuel tank is pretty old my consider a new one $179, regulator $50ish, Fuel pump assembly from Tanks in $225 plus labor to cut modify and weld the tank, don't forget the braided lines and fittings $$$), old gauges suck so some new gauges may be in order ~$50 for each O2 sensor.....air inlet tube and K&N filter...cooling fans (most likely an engine driven fan on the current motor), $450 for speartech to modify the harness, plugs and wires $75, BRP motor mounts were $250ish (don't recall exactly), yea S&P motor mounts are chaper but then you need to modify the oil pan.... cut down driveshaft and have it rebalanced or get new driveshaft, modify cross member or get new one....just a few things I can think of quicly.

Again, not trying to be negative just don't want to see you jump into something and think you're going to get out of it cheap.

My Z is almost done
I've driven it and it's pretty snappy

Link to my page is in my sig.

Good luck.
Marc

all-AM-muscle

iTrader: (3)

i dont mind anyone being negative, i like to hear the negative points about this swap to help me decide what direction is best for me. i also suppose i shouldnt have used the words "tight budget" i just meant that if we did it, wed do all the work we could ourselves (probably about 98% of the work). tight budget meant to me that wed purchase only whats needed to get the car runnning, nothing fancy like new suspension, or rack and pinion, fancy custom fuel tank...

Heres how i am seeing the comparison of a 1st gen w/ manual and a LS1 swap: no matter what i do i would like a 4,5,or 6 spd. manual, since the car will likely not come with a motor/trans. My thoughts are that the cheapest way to go would be a used t-5 (has very low torque rating) is about $400-$900 plus all the parts to make it function (bellhousing, clutch, etc...) ~$700??? (or about $3500 for the whole new conversion from someone like kiesler). like i said in my previous post we are building a 383 right now, the parts are costing $3500 alone, NOT using all top of the line parts either. So at this pt. an LS1 conversion seems cheaper, on avg being ~$3500 on ebay. That is true that you then have to factor in all that other stuff as well. But i was partly assuming most of that stuff would need to be replaced going in either direction, since the condition of most of those parts in a $1800 car cant be too good. since wed be going with a differanf trans than stock no matter what we'd have to cut the driveshaft, and change mounts anyways. The only thing i see that is a cost over the 1st gen sb and manual (in time or money) is the wiring and computer for the LS1, also the braided hoses.

anyone else with other view points, or does anyone see that my $ calculations/assumptions are wrong, please help, thank you.

Cam72aro

iTrader: (28)

My conversion ran around $6000. That was buying an ebay motor and trans, tearing it down and inspection everything, new gaskets, cam, valve springs, etc. You can do it for cheaper, but there is alot of when you are in ther you might as well do its. It all adds ups and very fast. Josh

ls1canuck

I did my swap as cheap as possible and here is the rough breakdown. Also I've been running this setup now for 3 years, and not one problem.

1.Engine/trans with all wiring, assesories, and sensors with 29000 miles $3500

2. Motor mounts $10 for scrap steel, and about 2 hours to make them from templates found on this site.

3. Trans crossmember no cost. Just had to weld a mount on the other side of it to line up with the new trans.

4. Oil pan mods. I got a modified pan from S&P for $250. Otherwise it wouldn't clear the crossmember. I would have had it welded locally but the pickup tube also has to be lengthened, so I figured it was money well spent make sure it was done right.

5. New fuel pump (Walbro 255 lph) $150. New '99 corvette filter/reg $80. I just ran an inline pump so no need to modify the tank. Also I used the factory style push lock connectors to hook onto the regulator, and just ran fuel injection rubber hose to the fittings with high pressure hose clamps. From the filter/reg (located at the back by the tank ) I just hooked back onto the factory fuel line. The total for fittings and rubber hose was about $20. Alot of guys run AN fittings and braided lines, but you absolutely don't need to. I've now gone 3 years with no leaks or any problems.

6. Cooling fan. I got mine off ebay (Zirco 16") brand new for $80. I just used zip ties to attach it to the original radiator

7. Wiring. You can get your harness modified for around $400. Or get a new harness for around $750.

8. driveshaft cut down and balanced $120

9. Headers are the final concern. I don't know about the second gen camaro, but my first gen needed the headers from S&P because I couldn't find anything else that would clear the steering box. I think there are more options for headers now. Mine from S&P were around $450. If you can use the factory manifolds you'll save alot right there.

There are also little things like intake tube, air filter and hoses, but the things listed are the big ones. There are many options when doing this swap like you saw in the stickies, you really need to take the time to figure out how you want to do yours. Mine was done for around $2000 plus engine and trans.

all-AM-muscle

iTrader: (3)

That is EXACTLY what i was hoping to hear!!!! Thank you ls1canuck!!, i was starting to quote all the bare minimum stuff youd need to buy, that saved me some time - so your setup cost ~$5500, thats what i was expecting and hoping to be true.

I had already started quoting the cost for just an automatic to manual 6 speed. Like before, Im assuming i dont have an engine or trans to start out with, and im using ebay, or a parts catalog for these quotes. i found the average cost of the conversion + a 1st gen block to be:

- $1440- ZF s6-40 trans (bolts up no mods to 1st gen engine)
- $125- ZF bellhousing
- $215- flywheel
- $349- clutch
- $2500- 1st gen sbc-wouldnt trust the rebuild (cheapest complete rebuild; found 2 with similar prices)
- $120 - driveshaft shortening

totaling out to be: $4749 - only $751 cheaper than the conversion, not including all the misc. parts to get that setup and running

now assuming that the ls1 doesnt need a rebuild, thats not a huge differance in cost, when your getting reliability and accuracy of fuel injection, MORE HP (!!!), what more could you ask

well- i can ask one more thing: if the LS1 needs a rebuild isnt it sleeved, so unlike a 1st gen block that can only be bored out to ~.060 over, you can re sleeve it and not all is lost- is that true?
thanks for all your help and info thus far!! - sorry for lengthy post, wanted to get everything on my mind in.