Dynamometer Results & Comparisons - AFR 205's make big power

Well, after a looonnngg time fooling around with exaust solutions I finally ended up with a set of DRM cutouts. Thus the resurrection of my car is complete.
I went to ECS and did my final PE and timing tweaks but didn't have enough time to finish and thoroughly tweak the AFR and timing for peak torque and hp. However, I'm fairly close with about 10/10 on the table, maybe a scouche more?
I have to thank Doug, (Thanks Doug! :wavey:) for pulling an alternator out of his back pocket when I killed mine on the dyno. :bang: And also to Mike for popping the old one out and the new one in so fast I didn't even know it was done!
Tony Mamo came through again. Thanks again Tony. :thumb: Putting the potato in the exhaust was key, but I had to use 4 for the TI tips. ;)
Below are the numbers and the specs are in my sig. This is with a stock water pump, 4:10's, and Kooks cats (Magnaflows - I think). The car drives around town like stock, but runs like a 'scalded dog' or a 'raped ape' or whatever when I push the long thin pedal on the right side.
The AFR is very flat at 13.1:1 from the onset to the rev limit, hence the lower than optimum tq/hp levels.
http://i38.tinypic.com/2rc5s2b.jpg

put it on a dynojet once and see what you get.

Wow u made good power on a 403 with AFR205's
Were they out of the box 205's or were they mamofied alittle bit..

Well I certainly can't wait to see how my upcoming 402 does with my afr 205's and g5x3vII cam being reused in it. Close in specs to you bro.

Congrats on your results. Scalded dog comment is too funny.

Nice results. Oh and Doug I cannot wait to see what yours will do as well.

I did do some light porting and aggressive combustion chamber work (to take advantage of his larger bore motor) on Roger's 205 heads as well as provide him with a ported FAST and ported LS2 TB combo. Also, Roger is extremely detail oriented and spent alot of time ensuring everything was spot on with the build (valvetrain geometry etc.). Its just another very optimized build with the right parts and attention to detail....much like a few of the combinations I have built or been very involved in the past. To be honest I was a little surprised about the horsepower myself but certainly very pleased. When Roger and I discussed this package (at great length I might add), my guess was closer to 515 RWHP and a ton of area under the curve.

Regarding a DynoJet and a DynaPack dyno, trust me the read very similar UNLESS you run heavy aftermarket rims and tires. With a Dynapack that variable is eliminated as the dyno bolts directly to the wheel hubs. With my reasonably light 10.5" Z06 rims and lighter Nitto DR's (tire/rim combo around 48 lbs) the two dyno's were virtually identical, but I have seen some combo's dyno 10 or so RWHP more on a Dynapack that ran heavy rim/tires combinations (which would cost you power on a DynoJet or any typical wheel dyno)....some of them over 60lbs each. Also, for anyone questioning these results, look at the torque which is what this dyno is actually measuring (like a flywheel dyno would)....its not unusually high at all for this combination. The key to the big power is that the optimized set-up related to its airflow and breathing ability allowed that torque curve to hang on much longer at higher RPM and thats how the big power came to be....purely a mathmatical function of the torque produced and the RPM turned. When you see a 346 make 400 RWTQ at 3000 RPM's and see an abnormally high power curve then you start to question things as it would border on impossible for an engine of that displacement to produce that much torque at that RPM.

Congrats Roger....it was a long time coming but worth the wait.

BTW, the best part about this combo is the insane throttle response, tip in power, and overall SOTP from the small heads. The car feels even faster than than the stout numbers you guys see at WOT because the part throttle of this combo would "feel" like a much larger engine was actually installed.

Good stuff....

Regards,
Tony

Nice results. Oh and Doug I cannot wait to see what yours will do as well.

Thanks Mark. I have confidence in the AFR 205's on 402 ci's. OPs results back it up.

I thought that for a motor with those cubes (402), it would be ideal to go with the AFR 225's. IS this incorrect? Why did you go with the 205's over the 225's, and what woul be the advantages\disadvantages of each head?

Not questioning your judgement, more so just looking to learn a bit and understand why you went the direction you did, and the results of that decision.

Very realistic results.
Nice heads too. We made 509 hp on a 383 with the 205s.

Great results. I barely beat you with a 416.

I thought that for a motor with those cubes (402), it would be ideal to go with the AFR 225's. IS this incorrect? Why did you go with the 205's over the 225's, and what woul be the advantages\disadvantages of each head?

Not questioning your judgement, more so just looking to learn a bit and understand why you went the direction you did, and the results of that decision.

From everything I have read I have come to the understanding that AFR 205's will work well on a 402. You will sacrifice some PEAK numbers but POWER under the curve should more then make up for it. Read some of Tony Mamo's posts and you'll get a better idea of whats going on.

Hey guys, Sorry for not jumping back on until now. I posted this late Thursday night and was traveling all day yesterday. I know there is at least 10/10 left on the table, and I plan on addressing that after the summer and after the motor has had a chance to break in a little more.

The specs on the motor and combo are as follows:
LPE 403 - forged with a Dragonslayer crank, Compstar Rods, and Mahle pistons. - tried to keep it lightweight. stock LS2 waterpump, LS2 timing chain and gear. Comp XER Grind 242/242 .610"/.610" 114LSA installed +2. Cadillac racing lifters, 7.375" Comp pushrods, Yella Terra UL rockers, installed with .080 shims (best wipe). .030" Cometic gaskets (slugs were .010" in) LPE high volume oil pump.

AFR heads worked by Tony Mamo, AFR 8019 springs shimmed. BTW, these heads were beat up from my previous build. One chamber was toast with the washer that fell in still in the head. So he had to reweld them and resurface them. I couldn't see where the damage was after I got them back. I could only detect a slight discoloration where the welds went in. This also brings me to the reason for going with 205's. I had them and didn't have to invest in a new set. Also, for less than the cost of buying a new set of 225's I got a great chamber rework and porting job from one of the best. Also I discussed with Tony the benefits of the 205's vs. the 225's, and what I wanted the car for. Since it isn't a drag car and I was planning on using it for fun and some HPDE's we agree'd that having nasty throttle response coming out of a corner or spanking some rice stoplight to stoplight was more important than absolute top end performance. Tony nailed it with these heads and cam combo.

VaraRam B2 - VaraRams typically make a little less power sitting still on the dyno as they are designed for pushing air, not pulling it. - This is also debateable.

Haltech Airbridge modified to mate between the VaraRam and a PowerMax 100mm MAF (uses the new Hitachi MAF element).

Nick Williams 90mm TB - I'm thinking of having Tony port this too. Problem is, he's so damned busy! Tony Mamo ported 90 mm FAST.

Kooks 1 7/8" into 3" xPipe with cats to 3" mid-section to Z06 Ti's.

The clutch and PP are a Textraila OZ700 and billet steel flywheel.
The rear is a built 4:10 from ECS.

So the power was made through cats, TI's, stock water pump, and 4:10's.

And as far as throttle response goes Tony is right, it's instantaneous. I cannot stab the throttle in 1st or 2nd or I hit the rev limiter almost instantly.

MY daughter works for Lamborgini and has been in the new LP560 a bit. When I took her out in my car she had to admit it was faster. Made me feel really good, since she's become a bit of an elitist :D

I thought that for a motor with those cubes (402), it would be ideal to go with the AFR 225's. IS this incorrect? Why did you go with the 205's over the 225's, and what woul be the advantages\disadvantages of each head?

Not questioning your judgement, more so just looking to learn a bit and understand why you went the direction you did, and the results of that decision.

You can question my judgement, I do and my wife does all the time, lol.
I went very heavily on Tony's recommendation. I believe that velocity is more important than volume when building NA power. So we talked about matching the heads with the cam. Also, Tony opened up the chambers for the 4" bore which also unshrouded the valves a bit. I've read you can use about 10 degrees more duration on a 402 than with a 347 so the cam really isn't that big. Also we went with a 114 LSA to keep the overlap down for a wider torque curve, again adds to the throttle response.

What I suggest to anybody contemplating building a new combo is to really be honest about what you want the car to do. Making big numbers is easy to do, but it costs a lot of money and why spend it twice? When I was forced into redoing my motor my head was spinning with possibilities. I had been doing a lot of research on these boards and learned a lot, but I've learned that a little knowledge can be dangerous. Also, you can't replace experience, so I contacted the guy I thought would be the best to redo my heads, Tony, since he designed them. I then learned he's been building motors for a long time and has thousands of hrs working on LS1's, etc. So I started asking questions and soon realised I was talking to an experienced engine builder. The outcome was a car that is pretty snotty for a budget build, it's reliable, and drives like stock around town, with no surge, etc. I can take my wife out to dinner in it, have a converstion with her while listening to the radio, and give the keys to the valet and he can drive it and park it. Then on the weekend I can put the CCW's on it and take it to the track and have a good showing.

After reading about your success I am very excited about my upcoming results doing a 402 with afr 205's and a similar cam. I'll most likely be using Mahle pistons and callies parts too.

How big are your combustion chambers bro ?? Mine were milled to 59cc.

What size valves you got in those heads ?? What compression are you running ??

What effect do you think my 3.42's will have VS your 4.10's ???

BTW CONGRATS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The combustion chambers were made larger to accomodate the 4" bore. I'm not sure what Tony did there other than I was told to use 4.130" bore gaskets. I'm pretty sure they were milled to 58cc's to get an SCR of 11.5:1. I'm using the oem size valves for the 205's, the 2.02" and 1.60". The intakes are hollow shaft Ferrea's.

I think the 3.42's will show ~12-15 more hp/tq than the 4:10's. Best of luck on meeting your goals. :chug:

Very realistic results.
Nice heads too. We made 509 hp on a 383 with the 205s.
Thanks Ed. The chambers and ports really were a work of art. It's too bad I had to hide them in the motor.

Nice setup.We've found that the AFR 205's work extremely well on 402/403ci motors too. Have a few with close setups as yours pushing close #'s.Great heads.:nod:

Sick numbers! Got any grudge races coming up? :devil:

Nice setup.We've found that the AFR 205's work extremely well on 402/403ci motors too. Have a few with close setups as yours pushing close #'s.Great heads.:nod:

Now that I've experienced it I have to agree. I was a little skeptical at first but the economics made sense. I think the cam matches the heads and cylinder volume very well which is why it ended up where it did.

Sick numbers! Got any grudge races coming up? :devil:
I think if I can hook with the gears and throttle response I could hang with a lot of cars at least for the 330. There is a certain LP560 that could use a spanking...

Very nice setup!

Now that I've experienced it I have to agree. I was a little skeptical at first but the economics made sense. I think the cam matches the heads and cylinder volume very well which is why it ended up where it did.

The funny thing is there is more left.If the Cam was a 242/246 on 112+4 you would gain a good amount of torque and alittle more up top.

Roger,

Great setup, I'm itching to do mine now :devil:

The funny thing is there is more left.If the Cam was a 242/246 on 112+4 you would gain a good amount of torque and alittle more up top.
I'm not going to question your experience or knowledge on that point. I'm sure it's true, however a big part of selecting the cam I went with was to maintain driveability between 1200-1500 rpm's. I think we achieved that. The car is docile enough when 'lugging it' that I can take my wife to dinner in it and leave the keys with the valet. No way was I able to do that with my last build. That was a stock bottom end with these heads untouched and a 224/228 112 + 2. I would think that a 112 LSA would move the torque curve higher and make it narrower, or would setting that cam 2 more degrees advanced bring it back down, i.e. +4 vs. +2?

Roger,

Great setup, I'm itching to do mine now :devil:
Thanks Bob, in the end it was well worth all the extra effort. It's really weird how it drives at low speed and rpm, but when you step on it, it makes small children and women cry :devil:. You're going to love it. Hurry up, I'm anxious to see what your results will be.

Very nice numbers with the 205s.

Nice numbers. Congrats

nice job man congrats.

i agree the 205s on a 402 do GREAT. as tony said my tip in and throttle responce and SOTP is unreal it so fun to drive this small head engine my buddie love it for that KICK in the pants feel. im gettin 400 FTLBS at 3k and keeps it there to 6400. heres my dyno

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=695055&highlight=

great results man A+

nice job man congrats.

i agree the 205s on a 402 do GREAT. as tony said my tip in and throttle responce and SOTP is unreal it so fun to drive this small head engine my buddie love it for that KICK in the pants feel. im gettin 400 FTLBS at 3k and keeps it there to 6400. heres my dyno

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=695055&highlight=

great results man A+
That motor is FAT with torque! Yeah, you gotta be light on the pedal around town because it gets snotty real fast.

you have 4.10s thats gonna be crazy on the street. what do you run for tires?

you have 4.10s thats gonna be crazy on the street. what do you run for tires?
rear: 295x35x18 Pilot Sports on Z06 Speedlines
front: 265x40x17 Pilot Sports on Z06 Speedlines

great results..i may look into doing something like this with the afr 205's i currently have on my car

nice job man congrats.

i agree the 205s on a 402 do GREAT. as tony said my tip in and throttle responce and SOTP is unreal it so fun to drive this small head engine my buddie love it for that KICK in the pants feel. im gettin 400 FTLBS at 3k and keeps it there to 6400. heres my dyno

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=695055&highlight=

great results man A+


Hearing the awesome results you got, and the fat torque curve you are working with has my mouth watering for my engine to be built. I can't wait !

its all in the right combo for the job thats for sure. i have thought about putting the cam back to 0=113 as its so hard to hookup. i think less Tq and maybe some more in the upper RRRRs would make it faster at least on the street. as for the track i need the Tq to get 3900LBs movin LOL

its all in the right combo for the job thats for sure. i have thought about putting the cam back to 0=113 as its so hard to hookup. i think less Tq and maybe some more in the upper RRRRs would make it faster at least on the street. as for the track i need the Tq to get 3900LBs movin LOL

No doubt. I think the next mod is going to be a beefier, maybe Stage 4 M6, with a Stage 4 3.73 rear. I'm only @ 3150lbs, unless I sit my fat azz in there. Now 1st and 2nd are like steel wheels on ice.

LOL i would pray for 3100 me 250 in the car now doing some weight mods and bigs littles got us to 3590 but wow 3100 thats awesome. 10s would ba a breeze.
i know what you sayin buddie and i were talkin about that to day at work, back after it got built the street tires werent safe LOL. third gear it would do a little dance. hell 2 mo ago i had it open headered and with the mostly bald 275-50-15 DRs it would spinn from a 3rd gear roll. all this power under the curve might be getting out of hand ya know.

wow nice results man...Tony is the man, he ported my fast for me and id come back and work with him anytime. Ive also been tuned at ECS so i know you went in the right direction with your shop at least....Doug and the rest of the guys do a great job and run a professional shop, id recommend them to anyone. Looks like a little port work goes a long way on those 205's.

LOL i would pray for 3100 me 250 in the car now doing some weight mods and bigs littles got us to 3590 but wow 3100 thats awesome. 10s would ba a breeze.
i know what you sayin buddie and i were talkin about that to day at work, back after it got built the street tires werent safe LOL. third gear it would do a little dance. hell 2 mo ago i had it open headered and with the mostly bald 275-50-15 DRs it would spinn from a 3rd gear roll. all this power under the curve might be getting out of hand ya know.
Well, it's more like 3150, but who cares, lol. The FRC's are pretty light, and I did some other things, but it's hard to take weight off. With the rear tires being so far back that also limits traction off the line, but from a roll it runs pretty well.

Awsome results. When are we going to see some track times and videos.:devil:

wow nice results man...Tony is the man, he ported my fast for me and id come back and work with him anytime. Ive also been tuned at ECS so i know you went in the right direction with your shop at least....Doug and the rest of the guys do a great job and run a professional shop, id recommend them to anyone. Looks like a little port work goes a long way on those 205's.

I agree about Tony. His port work looks like cnc. From my untrained eye all the ports look the same. Tony not only did port work on the heads, but he also did a lot of chamber work to unshroud the valves and take advantage of the larger bore. The car actually sounds like an organ when idling. Those ports are honkin'. Here is a short vid of the first startup and idle. http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=b3t05d&s=3
Listen to the intake as I walk around the front.
The guys at ECS are great. I've known them for quite a while and the outcome is always good when I go there. Top shelf stuff.

Awsome results. When are we going to see some track times and videos.:devil:
I'm on vacation until the 25th. When I get back this weekend I'm planning on doing a video of the characteristics of the car. Idle, driving around town, going out on the highway. Slamming it, etc. I will post that hopefully sometime this weekend. As far as the track, that may take a bit as I am so busy personally right now it might have to wait until fall. But, we'll see...

Sweet man, keep us updated on those vids. Your results definately helped my question on whether or not to upgrade to 225s for my new project. Any plans for the lauging gas in the near future?

Very nice results!! I have been happy with my setup for a few years now. My only regrets are that I didnt send the heads to Tony to get massaged and my crappy headers.... but soon that all might change.

Very nice numbers! I am also in the middle of a 402 build with AFR 205's. It's nice to know that 500/500 is attainable without the driving characteristics of a monster cam.

Very nice results!! I have been happy with my setup for a few years now. My only regrets are that I didnt send the heads to Tony to get massaged and my crappy headers.... but soon that all might change.
If you do, talk to him about a cam swap too. He'll be able to spec a cam based on the work he'll do to the heads.

Very nice numbers! I am also in the middle of a 402 build with AFR 205's. It's nice to know that 500/500 is attainable without the driving characteristics of a monster cam.
You're gonna love it. 402's can handle larger durations than 346's, I've read about 10 degrees.

Vids!! Vids!! Vids!!! :D :D :D

Pretty please!! :drive:

Vids!! Vids!! Vids!!! :D :D :D

Pretty please!! :drive:
:D I'm workin' on it. I was going to do it this past Sunday. We had just finished the final touches to the low end stuff on the tune and a thunderstorm came up. :mad:
I may go out and do it today, if I can get some time.

Nice results! I wonder how well my Already Mamofied AFR 205's will work on my TSP 418?

Nice results! I wonder how well my Already Mamofied AFR 205's will work on my TSP 418?
Only one way to find out! I think it depends on what you want the car to be. A kick ass street car, I think they'd be great especially with the right cam. A a max effort track car, probably not, but I'd defer to the expert on that one.

I hate that Im forward thinking and reading about 402 builds when there is nothing wrong with my motor..........................today !

But, then that's what got roger in trouble

I hate that Im forward thinking and reading about 402 builds when there is nothing wrong with my motor..........................today !

But, then that's what got roger in trouble
Sometimes working your way out of trouble is the best way to grow, as in 346 to 402 maybe?
And when you're on the other side life is so much better.:headbang: