Rossko85

iTrader: (11)

Ya know...we have all been dealing with being shunned here and there with what they all call "wrong wheel drive LSx step kids" but, Im not understanding why it is so hard for people to just give us straight answers on stuff when asking very LSx questions....its almost like these are monsters people are afraid to touch; all except the dealer of course....I mean, dont get me wrong...there are some great pros out there that have had there way with these motors here and there just fine....but only a FEW!!

But newayz...wow...lil bit of frustrating rant there....but to tie into it...I want to know the scoop on the springs....I have some people telling me that the beehive is a good upgrade but the doubles would be better...so I buy doubles and with the same seat pressure as the singles and then i get told that those are tough on the stock lifters without a cam.....so, im thinking, jeeze..I know that there are guys running the PG duel springs without a cam....or even some with a cam...I know Mark does in his Cartunning/Baker/TEPTurbo LS4 and i think he had them well before the cam...along with the rockers....which it sounds like number 2 sounds logical but a pain in the *** when i could just pop these duels on and the nice set of everything i need and just be ready for cam and heads....im boosting now and have good pushrods...i just dont want to end up blowing lifters cause my spring resistance was TOO good ya know....someone tell me ill be ok please!! LMAO...no really, give me some experiences here guys....what you have seen and know to be the case for these motors....hopefully no horror stories....as you can tell...2 sounds ideal...but 1 is really the way i want to go...i just need some opinions....

I was then doing research and if you guys dont know...obviously, if you upgrade to any spring that the increased seat pressure and resistance on the valvetrain needs to be supported by higher grade pushrods....so, I go with the 3/8 molly pushers and think im good!!.....well, obviously not...a very repitable LSx pro on here and now moved here to indy....lol...any guesses....said that there would probably be valvetrain stability issues with them and that the 5/16 would work just fine....unless i plan on taking my car over 7200 rpms and etc...which I dont at this point lol...

SO...im planning on doing a cam this fall if all goes well and getting my heads custom specked from Brett and Landspeedheads here in indy....hes working a really sweet deal right now with me on a rearmount head build set with a select rear mount turbo ground cam with my power goals and all my expected levels now....

So im wanting to listen to some folks on the double springs being too much for the lifters and eventually causing stress and leading to problems....I can see that.....but, on the other hand...they are the same seat pressure and lift etc...or if not very very close to some of the select single beehive levels....but not wanting to spend money twice...im planning the cam in fall as i said and will need that added streangth and resistance along with my 5/16 pushrods to compliment the lobe and valve duration....

so somebody clear this up for me....which way should I go...will the duels damage or cause excessive strain and wear on my factory lifters without a cam right now....and just throw these on here with the nice solid locks and valves as a set or should i just return these and grab individual parts as far as valves locks etc and some single beehives for the added protection and valve seating to button things up while boosting.
....

DavidGXP

iTrader: (14)

Well.. GXPJAY, used LS6 yellow springs without any problems on his turbo GXP. I'm using 3/8" pushrods, LS6 yellow springs with 1.8 rockers and have had no problems spinning past 6000rpm. Beehive springs is what its about today. COMP CAMS 26918's are a very popular spring and are much improved over the yellow LS6 springs. Combine them with titanium retainers and your set. 3/8" molly push rods are very stout and you can run them without any problems.
If your planning on changing cams and doing head work, then I would just change everything at once. Use non DOD lifters and upgrade the timing chain too.
Here's some good reading for you.
[url]http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1961/the_wonder_spring.aspx[/url
What are the specs on your dual springs? I'm sure you can run them and you'll be just fine. You should really replace your lifters though. And just for the record, we have the old style blue LS6 beehive springs stock.

neilownz

You can get a PRC titanium retainer dual spring setup from texas speed fairly cheaply.

nmp0098

The piece of the puzzle that you are missing is the weight of the components. The 3/8ths pushrods are heavier than the 5/16ths, which means the dynamic forces (from accelerating the mass of the pushrod back and forth) are greater. You need beefy components to deal with the extra forces and smaller deflection, and that's why you were told that 3/8ths are a better matched to a more radical setup that has really high spring pressures and beefy lifters. That's why most people just stick with hardened (chromoly) pushrods. They weigh about the same as the stockers, but are a lot stronger and can support most street cams without excessive bending. That said, if you run a lot of boost it takes a lot of force to lift the exhaust valve off of the seat and you do need a beefy pushrod. I don't have any good advice on where the line is, or if you've crossed it.

It's the same mass thing with springs. Double springs are proven and work much better at controlling the valve then a single straight spring, but they relatively have a lot mass to accelerate. The beehives are designed to compress unevenly (the bottom compresses first and actually binds), so that the amount of mass being moved by the rocker constantly decreases. There is some stuff about spring resonances mixed into this too, but both duals and beehives address the issue. The dual does by having two resonant frequencies with extra damping and the beehive does by having a non-linear spring rate that effectively doesn't resonate. The final issue is reliability. For the same spring rate, the dual spring is the stronger and more reliable setup. Even if you break one of the springs in a dual setup, you can hopefully catch the issue before the other one breaks and you can hopefully save the valve. Still, in a properly setup valvetrain, beehives are just as reliable as duals.

By the way, the best (but most expensive solution) way to control valve bounce is by reducing the weight of the whole system. It's overkill, but titanium valves will allow you to run a lower spring rate (which reduces friction (power loss) and wear on the valvetrain) and still not see float.

Personally I like the beehives because of their lower effective mass. IIRC, a beehive spring with a regular steel valve and retainer has about the same effective mass as a dual spring with titanium valves and retainers. Plus the stock seats and retainers work with Comp and PAC beehives, so they are cheaper too.