LT1-LT4 Modifications 1993-97 Gen II Small Block V8

Which type supercharger for an LT1?

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Old 11-28-2008, 09:09 PM
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Default Which type supercharger for an LT1?

Hello everyone. As the title indicates, I am considering a SC for my LT1. Can anyone specify a centrifugal versus a "blower" type? The car is an A4 TA with a 2800 stall and 373's. Motor has a new MSD opti, and about 135K miles. Runs good, but I also have an 02' M6 LS1 TA, which is more "fun" than the LT1. I cant sell the LT1 car for the time & money I've put into it over the years, and get what its worth in my opinion, so I wanna make it more "appealing". Any suggestions?........
Old 11-28-2008, 10:35 PM
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The old roots-type superchargers arent an option for us because the engines in the 4th gen f-bodys sit too far back. So basically the only option is a centrifugal. I'm sure there are other options that you could put together yourself, but the only kit option that I know of is an ATI Procharger. Just as a side note though, your stock rear end isn't going to care much for that much power, especially with upgraded gears. Your suspension likely won't hold the power either and a supercharger at 135k on a stock shortblock is probably kinda pushing it. Not trying to be a downer, just sayin. Hopefully that helps some
Old 11-29-2008, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by nighthawk15
The old roots-type superchargers arent an option for us because the engines in the 4th gen f-bodys sit too far back. So basically the only option is a centrifugal. I'm sure there are other options that you could put together yourself, but the only kit option that I know of is an ATI Procharger. Just as a side note though, your stock rear end isn't going to care much for that much power, especially with upgraded gears. Your suspension likely won't hold the power either and a supercharger at 135k on a stock shortblock is probably kinda pushing it. Not trying to be a downer, just sayin. Hopefully that helps some
not completely true... MTI has a Magna-Charger roots type blower for LS1 Fbodies... however, I haven't seen on for LT1/LT4's
Old 11-29-2008, 01:05 AM
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http://procharger.com/GM/93-97F-body.shtml
Old 11-29-2008, 01:21 AM
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You could custom fab an intake manifold to use a roots type blower on an LT1. There's a few that have done it. I wish someone would make a kit to do it. I'd be all over that. It's the only way I'd supercharge a vehicle.
Old 11-29-2008, 02:01 AM
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Like they said before.. If you plan to add a blower, plan on investing another several grand on a new short block soon...

Although not going to lie, would be sweet. Just make sure your transmission and rearend are meant to handle it. And I'm hoping with a stall and that high of miles that you have a tranny cooler?
Old 11-29-2008, 03:36 PM
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I have a Eaton M122 i am going put on my 94 T/A over the winter, for the sole purpose of doing it so people can see how, and selling it at the LTx Shootout in May. Also to finance a 88mm turbo build for next winter. If your still looking around that time, ill be posting info after christmas
Gary
Old 11-29-2008, 03:45 PM
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^^^ isn't an M122 the 3.8 V6 supercharger like on a grand prix?

Otherwise these dudes are right there is no option for a roots type supercharge on a LT1 motor at this point probably because of the height of the intake manifold more than anything. Vortech makes another centrifugal version but for what it costs I'd say build yourself a new FI motor first, esp considering your mileage
Old 11-29-2008, 08:08 PM
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Oops, thanks guys for catching my brain fart before. What I meant to say is that a roots blower on an LT1 is possible. I have seen them as well, however they are not very common, and its not exactly easy or cheap to do. If it was you would see a lot more of them. and I didn't know about the magna-charger style for the LS1s. Thats pretty kickass
Old 11-29-2008, 09:25 PM
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Default centrifugal vs roots....

Thanks all for your advice & opinions. I have read alot of comments on various websites and forum's. I also spoke with a guy at TransAm Creations in South Florida. I am told that the stock internals & rear end with 135k miles is okay with a 6-8lb boost. Most recomend a Centrifugal for install simplicity, however, I am led to believe the initial performance powerband range is better with a roots at low rpm. For what its worth, I have the idle set at around 900-1000 rpm. With the stall, performance seems better at that setting. Websites mention the centrifugal is better at high rpm. I am thinking though, that with a roots SC, although power will be instantaneous, it might/will cause immediate tire roasting and possible extreme lane changing. This car is a DD, for now. If I blow the motor, so be it. I cant sell the car for more than 5K-6K, if that, which is too low, at least to me, so its a keeper until....So, whats better, a centrifugal or roots?......
Old 11-30-2008, 03:55 PM
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Centrifugal in my opinion when it comes to easy install

Roots just sound amazing with the whine.. but wouldn't we have clearance issues in the hood with our 93-97 F-Bodies?

Yeah, keep it at low 6-7psi probably.. either way you will still be happy.. will still be beating Honda's turboed at 20psi... lol
Old 11-30-2008, 04:17 PM
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Default hood mod...

okay, so if a roots is possible, get a new hood or just cut the phukin hood with sawzall and put a scoop on it. With the amount of money being used, why not go the next step with a sick hood. My LS1 TA has the ram-air hood. Its just for appearance, with what.. 10-15 HP gained at speed/high rpm, so "they" say. So the LT1 hood mod would be truly required for functional use.
Old 11-30-2008, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by multmigs
^^^ isn't an M122 the 3.8 V6 supercharger like on a grand prix?

Otherwise these dudes are right there is no option for a roots type supercharge on a LT1 motor at this point probably because of the height of the intake manifold more than anything. Vortech makes another centrifugal version but for what it costs I'd say build yourself a new FI motor first, esp considering your mileage
FYI the 3800 series II supercharged engines(L67) have the M90 eaton supercharger.
Old 11-30-2008, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by trex600450
okay, so if a roots is possible, get a new hood or just cut the phukin hood with sawzall and put a scoop on it. With the amount of money being used, why not go the next step with a sick hood. My LS1 TA has the ram-air hood. Its just for appearance, with what.. 10-15 HP gained at speed/high rpm, so "they" say. So the LT1 hood mod would be truly required for functional use.

First, the reason that it is very hard to do is because our engines sit bhind the cowl, so you would have to cut the cowl and the part of the windshield out. Second, ram air hoods don't do **** on our cars. They look really good, but only make like 1 hp more at over 100mph.
Old 12-06-2008, 01:28 PM
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I'm in the same place you are, im lookin into a centifugal SC for my 97 TA but at 110k miles im not sure what kind of internal work I'd need to get into to make it somewhat safer. I talked to a guy who knows his stuff pretty well and said I wouldnt need much to run just 8lbs. theres a vortec kit on dragtimes.com you should probably check into it seems like it'd be a good way to go.
Old 12-06-2008, 02:02 PM
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I actually did a small bit of research (quite small) on a roots style after that thread was posting showing what GM almost did for a motor option, using a 4.3 and supercharging it with roots. Their setup though I couldn't stand, and ontop of that the intercooler was before the supercharger, which didn't make any sense. The post I made, with pics, showed what we could do and to me, seemed quite possible. That, and the supercharger had an aftercooler built into it. It also sat forwards more, and so I don't even think you'd have to clearance the cowl! What I'd do though, is if the hood had to be cut, make a shaker style cowl that bolted to the blower to keep out water, and then just cut a hole in the hood to show it off A standard SBC blower intake would work, but they listed SB2.2 and Vortec intakes, which both seem to use the exact same intake bolt pattern as ours. From what I read elsewhere, the Vortec heads were basically based off the LT1's.

Anyways, I'll try and find the thread, and my post. If someone is really actually determined to look into my idea further.

EDIT: OK, here's the thread, and the post I'm referring to is the last one.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-m...ally-cool.html
Old 12-06-2008, 03:06 PM
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Check out the forced induction threads, but from EVERYTHING I know, Procharger is the only way to go. You can go with the f1 or the D1sc(i think that is what it is called) if you want major power and there is anohter P1sc or something that is not go to as high boost levels. A lot of cobra guys switch their roots for centrifugals(even though roots sound awesome)!
Old 12-06-2008, 03:07 PM
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When I said "only way to go" I mean the most popular and 1/4 hp proven way.
Old 12-06-2008, 05:02 PM
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Yea, sadly from what I've read, the Roots/Whipple just don't make the same power due to more parasitic loss.

GOOD NEWS THOUGH!! Found a site DOCUMENTING an Eaton M112 install on an LT1 in a F-BODY!!
http://www.corneltechweb.com/superchargerweb.htm

SWEEEEEEET

Best part? No cowl mod NO HOOD CHANGE!

EDIT: OK I think I might have gone a bit overboard saying "documenting", there's lots of pics of it and a few pre-install. None showing his custom CNC intake, but I think the intake might be the least of our worries.

EDIT2: Looks like if anyone is serious about doing a top-mount, you best go with a Whipple. I had no idea wth the diff between the Roots and Whipple was, but after some reading I know now that the Whipple actually compresses the air. Apparently the Roots just force feeds the motor more air, which is why the Centrifugals are more efficient. The Whipple also has less parasitic loss over the Roots. And apparently the latest style is even better than before:
* Old style Whipple made 568hp and 488lbs of torque
* New style Whipple made 581HP and 531lbs of torque

On a Grand Prix:
What kind of gains can be expected from installing a Whipple on my car? - This is where the true power of the Whipple is shown. On a stock car using just a Whipple kit Animul Performance was able to pull out a 13.3 second quarter mile pass. It's important to note that the average stock GTP does a ~14.5 - 14.8 quarter mile pass. This is over a full second improvement in ET with just the Whipple supercharger, on the old style Whipple supercharger no less!
Makes me wish I had the money and sources to do something like this

You could always go wacky! My dad's Toyota Minivan is supercharged, and for a 4cyl it's quite a beefy charger on it, same style as the MR2 but almost twice as large. It's also a remote mount roots! With that said, I saw a pic of an Aussie car (only they'd do this lol) running TWO of them on a V8 lol They had them mounted over the valve covers, so the alternator would have to be relocated

Last edited by Formula350; 12-06-2008 at 05:18 PM.
Old 12-06-2008, 05:51 PM
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Alright I'm starting to ramble now, so I'll just make a new post and not submit it till I'm satisfied with the info I've put in it

From Magnuson:
Why do you need a bypass valve? The best kept secret in forced induction is the little known bypass valve. This small valve, when properly installed between the supercharger and the air throttle body, allows the supercharger to become extremely efficient in terms of economy and parasitic power loss. Our M90 supercharger uses less than 1/3 of 1 HP at 60 MPH cruising. The bypass is operated by a vacuum actuator control unit that is normally closed. When vacuum is high (idle-cruising) the actuator opens the bypass valve, equalizing the vacuum pressure throughout the system. When boost is required (accelerating) the vacuum is decreased and the bypass valve instantly closes, causing pressure to increase into the cylinders. This equalized vacuum condition virtually eliminates the normal parasitic power loss of a forced induction system.
Key reason for the quote is the last sentence: "virtually eliminates the normal parasitic power loss of a forced induction system". I think most of the stuff I read, was in regards to non-bypassed roots/whipple setups. And the Whipple (and I believe even newer Roots) incorporate the Bypass valve into the blower, so you don't need one sticking out like on that 94 Firebird's.





Quote of a post on another forum
Alvin at pcmforless built one for his f body using a blower off of a ford lightning truck. He latter sold it and went to a vortech blower. But at any rate, I think he milled a LT1 intake down and used it. It fit under a stock hood as well. If you are interested in one you may want to contact him as well.
Not sure if a Lightening uses Roots or Whipple, but I assume it's the latter. Well that's assuming it's a more recent Lightening.



Here's quite an interesting clip from this article
The superchargers for the comparison included three Magna Charger models, a standard 112, a hybrid 112 and a hybrid 122. They also tested a Whipple “screw-type” 2300 and a Procharger centrifugal model. The dyno test measured several parameters including supercharger discharge temperature, intercooler discharge temp, boost curves and of course horsepower and torque curves. By using the same manifold and intercooler for all tests, the changeover and back-to-back testing was accomplished in a single day. Also, Magnuson’s location just off the ocean in Ventura California ensured that the ambient temperature varied just 15-degrees over the entire test.

The dyno confirmed what Jerry has been stating for years – “Run the smallest supercharger that will provide your target boost level. It will be more responsive (make boost sooner) and will require less horsepower to drive.” In this test the Magna Charger MP112 outperformed every other supercharger with the most average horsepower and torque over the 1500-6500rpm powerband, and when you look at certain points along the power curve the differences are spectacular. For example at 1500rpm the Magna Charger 112 is producing 400 ft. lbs. of torque and the Procharger centrifugal supercharger is just 280 ft. lbs. That’s similar to the difference between driving a small-block versus a big-block. The gap in performance actually increased at 3500rpm – Procharger’s 380 ft. lbs. to the Magna Charger’s 515 ft. lbs. In fact, the Procharger doesn’t catch up until the 6500rpm cut off and we don’t think anyone wants to rev a stock shortblock over 6500 do they?
Kind of proves what I've always thought to myself, that since the Centrifugal is just a compressor housing off a turbo with a pulley (for the most part, bear with me) that it probably is going to make the majority of it's power up in the RPMs. Now, that might not be true all the time, but I'm thinking generally.

And then this point is interesting as well. Mainly because I'm asking myself "Why in the hell don't they make an MP112 sized Whipple?!
A final analysis clearly shows that the most important factor for a street supercharger is the boost curve. When you hit the throttle at 1500rpm, what boost is your supercharger making? From an overall efficiency viewpoint, all of the superchargers are pretty close with similar discharge temps dumping into the manifold and past the intercooler. Horsepower at 7.5psi at 6500 is almost identical for all supercharger systems. The real difference is the amount of torque “under the curve” from 1500-6500rpm and the Magna Charger MP112 wins hands down. A Magna Charger-powered vehicle will be long gone by the time the screw or centrifugal supercharger’s boost curves catch up.
I mean, wouldn't that seem logical? Make the whipple smaller to take advantage of it's compression characteristics, but make boost quicker for power sooner...



A post by the Cornel gentleman:
Hi, I found this forum and I am the designer and fabricator for the Eaton M112 Firebird project! My name is Cornel. Thank's for the complements on this project. I will be updating my web page soon with a dyno video and more information. To answer some questions that I read in earlier posts , I designed the manifold on CAD and made it from a combination of aluminum plate and tubing and welded it in a machined jig for trueness. Then milled and machined. The blower is a Jaguar XKR Eaton M112 that I heavily modified by cutting off the brackets and shortening the nose drive. I then ground and polished the whole case. I used this blower because it was brand new an cost me nearly nothing, otherwise a Whipple 140Ax would produce much more HP and is lower overall height. The SVT cobra case is far to big and can't be modified to fit. There is no intercooler under my blower because there simply is not enough room. Right now I am only 1/4" below my windshield firewall bulkhead. I am using a snow performance water/meth injection right into the blower inlet and this works extremely well to lowering the inlet temps. I data log the inlet temps vs boost and can pm them to anyone who want to see them . My inlet temp start around 160* F and drop to 135*F under boost. I am also running 27* of timing @ WOT. The inlet on the jaguar blower is also much smaller than the standard M112 case, this greatley reduces the max CFM for this blower. I am aslo using a very agressive N/A cam which has 7 deg. of overlap greatly limiting boost which is not ideal for this setup. I will get a custom grind later. The car Dyno'ed 420RWHP and 424 RWTQ and has 400 RWTQ already at 2000rpm @ ~7.0 PSI. This thing has awsome low end torque, even with a 280* duration cam. I can expect more with shortening my inlet duct and cam change. Probably 440-460 RWHP. That will be the max for the jag blower. I have started a whipple 140ax design and am casting intake manifolds to fit. I will expect nothing short of min of 600+ hp from this along with the water/meth setup again and 14-16 psi boost. I will post the dyno sheet and video on my site soon. This whipple setup will most likely bolt right onto a C4 as well. This prototype blower and manifold will become available next spring once I start testing the Whipple. If you have any specific questions you can e-mail me at info@corneltechweb.com .
Thanks Again!!
Sucks to see it doesn't use an intercooler :\ But, that's the best way to keep it 'short'. Very cool to see he's working on a Whipple project! And to get his email



Another quote
Originally Posted by Cornel
Originally Posted by somedude
cornel, since the whipple will be a "lower profile" blower, have you considered installing an air-to-water intercooler (sandwiched between head unit and intake). Any possible way of re-designing the intake manifold to also promote a lower profile (thus freeing up an inch or two for the intercooler).

what made you decide on the smaller whipple 140ax unit?
My intake is less than 2" high over the center edge of the block. I can fit an intercooler in there but it would be so small it would be ineffective and make for a very restrictive manifold. I am using a 375 ml nozzle @150psi and drawing from my windshield washer tank which only consumes about 600 ml per 60L of fuel.. driving average. Of course if you are doing nothing but racing this will increase. I check the level every time I fill the car but only top it up every other time. The whipple produces much less heat per pound of boost (compared to a roots) and uses less parasitic HP to make boost at its optimum level therefore less water/meth will also be needed. The 140ax is capable of 700 rwhp and flowing up to ~1270 cfm and has a compact size needed to fit between the cylinder heads (width wise) to still allow room for injectors and a fuel rail in the runners at an optimum angle. I think for a daily driver this is going to be a great combination. Having said that if I can fit a practical intercooler in there I will do it. The only real benefit of the intercooler is for cruising keeping inlet temps down when the blower is recirculating. The advantage of water inj. is the harder you drive it the cooler it gets opposite to a heat soaked intercooler.
Thanks for the questions!
On 8/08 he said he updated his site, but I don't see anything new. Last update is 1/08 :\ Oh well, we still have his email

That's it for now, I have to go do some *****.


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