Rebuilding a 355
01-23-2017, 06:54 PM
#1
Rebuilding a 355 I have a 355 now that needs rebuilding. Have no idea what's wrong with it, it's breaking starters & has metal shavings in the pan. 2 spark plugs had one covered in oil and the other coolant. What I'd like to know is, if the repairs aren't to bad, meaning +/- $1500, what more does it take to turn it into a 383 or a 396? Are my pistons and rods usable with whatever crank is needed to get a longer stroke? I know this is a question for the machine shop I'm just looking to see what anyone else recommends. If it's all new internals I may not be able to go that way and just fix the 355. I'll be sending the heads off to get LE2s with whatever cam he suggests. Won't ever race it, take it to a track. It's just a nice car to drive on a nice day. Something I *may* DD but not for long.
01-23-2017, 07:12 PM
#2
TECH Regular
Just as an FYI, having Lloyd go through your heads, spec'ing a suitable cam, and the corresponding valvetrain bits (rockers, lifters, springs, etc) will eat up a significant portion of your overall budget.
Also, metal in the pan and breaking starters? At the very least, it sounds like you blew out a headgasket. Worst case? Something knockered the block and the coolant is coming from the hole/crack. My guess is there are some expensive bits in there that won't be usable.
Also, metal in the pan and breaking starters? At the very least, it sounds like you blew out a headgasket. Worst case? Something knockered the block and the coolant is coming from the hole/crack. My guess is there are some expensive bits in there that won't be usable.
01-23-2017, 07:44 PM
#3
The heads and cam will be part of a different budget and taken care of, probably before I send the bottom end to get built, but thanks for the heads up. I'm hoping it's not that bad & wishing for the best. Haven't had much luck with this build and I need a little luck on my side.
01-24-2017, 04:54 AM
#6
Pistons won't be reusable on a 383 or 396, only the rods. You probably have 5.7" rods, maybe 6" rods, either way with another 0.27" of stroke, being 0.135" of half stroke, the pistons need the pin to be 0.135" higher to keep the face of the piston at the same spot. There's tons of off the shelf pistons that will work, but you not only need $700 pistons, you also need a $800 crank, and a $250 balance if you abandon your 355 parts. If your crank, rods and pistons are ok, you save that $1750. Also the gains from a 383 vs a 355 on stock heads are way smaller than the gains you would get with LE2s on a 355.
01-24-2017, 06:53 AM
#7
Pistons won't be reusable on a 383 or 396, only the rods. You probably have 5.7" rods, maybe 6" rods, either way with another 0.27" of stroke, being 0.135" of half stroke, the pistons need the pin to be 0.135" higher to keep the face of the piston at the same spot. There's tons of off the shelf pistons that will work, but you not only need $700 pistons, you also need a $800 crank, and a $250 balance if you abandon your 355 parts. If your crank, rods and pistons are ok, you save that $1750. Also the gains from a 383 vs a 355 on stock heads are way smaller than the gains you would get with LE2s on a 355.
^^^ yup, you can make a stout 355...
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01-24-2017, 10:30 AM
#9
FormerVendor
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3.75" Forged SBC Crankshaft Hi, yes "open" the engine first.
My method is a bit DIFFERENT than some state, the correct sized part replacement items can be LESS cost than to repair.
Example : Crankshaft Grind + Heat Theat = $400.00 / New Forged 3.75" Crankshaft = $450.00 ($50.00 +)
The NEW forging = 1850 BW, thus no balance if piston/rod are of equal weight.
($175.00-)
Example : RacTec piston FORGED @ 4.003" FT for a 3.75" crankshaft (correct deck height) @ $400.00 / Bore Block = $200.00
The correct piston size allows Hone ONLY ($100.00-)
Example : Rod resize with bolts = $225.00 / New Forged Rod "H" beam @ 6.00" = $400.00 ($175.00+)
Example : King Race Bearings/Clevite Race Bearings = Kings@$75.00 lower cost. ($75.00-)
DUE THE MATH.
My above rotating assemble with ring/bearings @ $1650.00 FOB (balanced)
Lance
My method is a bit DIFFERENT than some state, the correct sized part replacement items can be LESS cost than to repair.
Example : Crankshaft Grind + Heat Theat = $400.00 / New Forged 3.75" Crankshaft = $450.00 ($50.00 +)
The NEW forging = 1850 BW, thus no balance if piston/rod are of equal weight.
($175.00-)
Example : RacTec piston FORGED @ 4.003" FT for a 3.75" crankshaft (correct deck height) @ $400.00 / Bore Block = $200.00
The correct piston size allows Hone ONLY ($100.00-)
Example : Rod resize with bolts = $225.00 / New Forged Rod "H" beam @ 6.00" = $400.00 ($175.00+)
Example : King Race Bearings/Clevite Race Bearings = Kings@$75.00 lower cost. ($75.00-)
DUE THE MATH.
My above rotating assemble with ring/bearings @ $1650.00 FOB (balanced)
Lance
01-24-2017, 10:45 AM
#10
I agree with Lance. Open up the engine to see what you are working with before making any plans or buying any parts.
Labor=$$ and spending labor on old parts can sometimes be almost as much or more than buying new parts that are ready to bolt in. Time=$$ in labor and machine work. It makes sense to buy new parts that get the labor cost down with economies of scale in manufacturing/volume. New parts are usually stronger than the stock counterparts.
My old 355 setup ran great with a stock turned .010 crank, Eagle h-beam rods, and forged pistons. However, I would have only had to pay a ~$300-400 more if I would have went a 383 at the time which would have netted me a little more power and stronger parts.
Figure about $3500-4000 (can go up to $5k+ if depending on part choices and end goals of the combo) for a totally assembled forged 383 short block with quality parts ready for heads and intake.
Labor=$$ and spending labor on old parts can sometimes be almost as much or more than buying new parts that are ready to bolt in. Time=$$ in labor and machine work. It makes sense to buy new parts that get the labor cost down with economies of scale in manufacturing/volume. New parts are usually stronger than the stock counterparts.
My old 355 setup ran great with a stock turned .010 crank, Eagle h-beam rods, and forged pistons. However, I would have only had to pay a ~$300-400 more if I would have went a 383 at the time which would have netted me a little more power and stronger parts.
Figure about $3500-4000 (can go up to $5k+ if depending on part choices and end goals of the combo) for a totally assembled forged 383 short block with quality parts ready for heads and intake.
01-24-2017, 11:12 AM
#11
I agree with Lance. Open up the engine to see what you are working with before making any plans or buying any parts.
Labor=$$ and spending labor on old parts can sometimes be almost as much or more than buying new parts that are ready to bolt in. Time=$$ in labor and machine work. It makes sense to buy new parts that get the labor cost down with economies of scale in manufacturing/volume. New parts are usually stronger than the stock counterparts.
My old 355 setup ran great with a stock turned .010 crank, Eagle h-beam rods, and forged pistons. However, I would have only had to pay a ~$300-400 more if I would have went a 383 at the time which would have netted me a little more power and stronger parts.
Figure about $3500-4000 (can go up to $5k+ if depending on part choices and end goals of the combo) for a totally assembled forged 383 short block with quality parts ready for heads and intake.
Labor=$$ and spending labor on old parts can sometimes be almost as much or more than buying new parts that are ready to bolt in. Time=$$ in labor and machine work. It makes sense to buy new parts that get the labor cost down with economies of scale in manufacturing/volume. New parts are usually stronger than the stock counterparts.
My old 355 setup ran great with a stock turned .010 crank, Eagle h-beam rods, and forged pistons. However, I would have only had to pay a ~$300-400 more if I would have went a 383 at the time which would have netted me a little more power and stronger parts.
Figure about $3500-4000 (can go up to $5k+ if depending on part choices and end goals of the combo) for a totally assembled forged 383 short block with quality parts ready for heads and intake.
Totally agree, going to wait til it's opened up to make a decision. Only thing I'm buying before it's dropped off is LE2/3 heads and cam. Have to wait to see what I'm going to do with the bottom end first, then getting the cam based on that. So that cost will be separate from the bottom end build. I'm just trying to figure how it could be $3-$4k when it's all said and done. I understand it could be depending on parts chosen, but will have to wait to talk to the machine shop before making decisions/buying anything. I guess I'm just asking to see what my options could be and how much I'm looking at. Really don't have people to talk to with built LT1s in the San Antonio area to get ideas and suggestions.
Jeremy
01-24-2017, 12:10 PM
#12
Check out the prices on this site to get an idea of what costs you may be looking at.
http://www.ellweinengines.com/
There are lots of small things that can add up quickly.
http://www.ellweinengines.com/
There are lots of small things that can add up quickly.
01-25-2017, 05:15 PM
#14
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I agree with Lance. Open up the engine to see what you are working with before making any plans or buying any parts.
Labor=$$ and spending labor on old parts can sometimes be almost as much or more than buying new parts that are ready to bolt in. Time=$$ in labor and machine work. It makes sense to buy new parts that get the labor cost down with economies of scale in manufacturing/volume. New parts are usually stronger than the stock counterparts.
My old 355 setup ran great with a stock turned .010 crank, Eagle h-beam rods, and forged pistons. However, I would have only had to pay a ~$300-400 more if I would have went a 383 at the time which would have netted me a little more power.
Figure about $3500-4000 (can go up to $5k+ if depending on part choices and end goals of the combo) for a totally assembled forged 383 short block with quality parts ready for heads and intake.
Labor=$$ and spending labor on old parts can sometimes be almost as much or more than buying new parts that are ready to bolt in. Time=$$ in labor and machine work. It makes sense to buy new parts that get the labor cost down with economies of scale in manufacturing/volume. New parts are usually stronger than the stock counterparts.
My old 355 setup ran great with a stock turned .010 crank, Eagle h-beam rods, and forged pistons. However, I would have only had to pay a ~$300-400 more if I would have went a 383 at the time which would have netted me a little more power.
Figure about $3500-4000 (can go up to $5k+ if depending on part choices and end goals of the combo) for a totally assembled forged 383 short block with quality parts ready for heads and intake.
01-25-2017, 05:21 PM
#15
turning a stock crank, like .0010 under, just affects the bearing size for the rod and main bearings. Fairly common on a rebuild using the existing crank. You would just order +.0010 bearings for the motor involved
01-25-2017, 05:22 PM
#16
Might be a silly question but ill ask anyway, When building a 355 does turning a stock crank effect any of the parts selection process or calculations related to cam/piston selection. The amount of .010 seems popular assuming that is bc it cleans things up enough to reuse ...?
01-26-2017, 05:25 AM
#20
If it was ME, I wouldn't buy ANYTHING until I opened the motor. If everything is trashed, you have a blank slate, and if you did a 396, LE2s might not cut it, and your cam selection will change based on displacement as a bigger motor can take a bigger cam for the same peak RPM.
For pricing my rebuild, when I was going to rebuild my stock longblock, I shopped around local shops, and follow them on Facebook watching their builds and customer feedback. I found one shop I'll probably use, his quotes were $80 to resize all rods for ARP bolts, $100 to deck block, $150 for a hone with torque plate, $250 for rebalance if required if I used new pistons, and $500 to assemble it if I had him do that. Normal rule of thumb for full machine work is around $1000, assuming about $250 for 0.030, $250 for line hone, $250 for balance, $100 for decking, cleaning and magnafluxing and other odds and ends another $150ish. So the $3000-4000 said above would include an assumed $2000 for forged crank ($800), pistons($700), and rods ($400), plus $1000 machine work, plus more if you did splayed caps, which would be recommended on a 383-396 or anything shooting for over 500 hp at the tires after spray. Highly unlikely to make 500hp NA on a normal build, so for a typical 400-450 rwhp 355-383, you can get away with ARP main studs and a line hone.
Rebuilding my 355 which I bought for $200 is closer to your path. Mine had water in the cylinders, as yours probably did as KW said, at best a hone, crank polish, new rings, bearings, deck the block, and reassemble. At worst hopefully is starting over on another block if the walls are pitted or grooved from the rust as I drag the pistons out. So you'd need 0.030, deck, line home for ARP studs.
Again my situation being similar to yours, so you know if the assembler used the ARP assembly line on the head bolts or black RTV like he should have? The head bolts almost all hit water, so the ARP lube doesn't deal against water, which could have caused coolant to make its way into the cylinder, and keep popping starters. Pray the rods held up to that stress. Replacing rods or pistons requires a rebalance. 0.010 on the crank does not.
For pricing my rebuild, when I was going to rebuild my stock longblock, I shopped around local shops, and follow them on Facebook watching their builds and customer feedback. I found one shop I'll probably use, his quotes were $80 to resize all rods for ARP bolts, $100 to deck block, $150 for a hone with torque plate, $250 for rebalance if required if I used new pistons, and $500 to assemble it if I had him do that. Normal rule of thumb for full machine work is around $1000, assuming about $250 for 0.030, $250 for line hone, $250 for balance, $100 for decking, cleaning and magnafluxing and other odds and ends another $150ish. So the $3000-4000 said above would include an assumed $2000 for forged crank ($800), pistons($700), and rods ($400), plus $1000 machine work, plus more if you did splayed caps, which would be recommended on a 383-396 or anything shooting for over 500 hp at the tires after spray. Highly unlikely to make 500hp NA on a normal build, so for a typical 400-450 rwhp 355-383, you can get away with ARP main studs and a line hone.
Rebuilding my 355 which I bought for $200 is closer to your path. Mine had water in the cylinders, as yours probably did as KW said, at best a hone, crank polish, new rings, bearings, deck the block, and reassemble. At worst hopefully is starting over on another block if the walls are pitted or grooved from the rust as I drag the pistons out. So you'd need 0.030, deck, line home for ARP studs.
Again my situation being similar to yours, so you know if the assembler used the ARP assembly line on the head bolts or black RTV like he should have? The head bolts almost all hit water, so the ARP lube doesn't deal against water, which could have caused coolant to make its way into the cylinder, and keep popping starters. Pray the rods held up to that stress. Replacing rods or pistons requires a rebalance. 0.010 on the crank does not.