Painless LT1 High RPM kit
01-27-2007, 11:36 PM
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Painless LT1 High RPM kit So I just saw that painless performance now makes their high rpm kit for the LT1. You get the cam, wiring harness, and the ECM http://www.painlessperformance.com/w...?SearchField=1.
These guys are claiming they made 365hp on an engine with no other mods. Im guessing thats not at the wheels. Either tway the early stock LT1s were rated at like 275 from the factory. This means youre gaining 90 hp with the painless kit. Does anyone know of anyone who has tried their kit?
These guys are claiming they made 365hp on an engine with no other mods. Im guessing thats not at the wheels. Either tway the early stock LT1s were rated at like 275 from the factory. This means youre gaining 90 hp with the painless kit. Does anyone know of anyone who has tried their kit?
01-27-2007, 11:53 PM
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sorry i dont know the price. the ecm is perfectly matched to the cam and a stock configuration im guessing. so a person with heads and exhaust may still need a tune to work out the better flow of air.
01-28-2007, 12:21 AM
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I think this is sweet. If the price is right painless really has something here. Thx for the heads up. I have been contemplating a cam swap for a while now and this may be just what I've been looking for.
01-28-2007, 12:29 AM
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That looks like a total scam. I bet for the price you could just get a retune and you'll be fine. I can't imagine that those numbers are rwhp/tq. I bet that's just a hotcam and you don't even need to rev that high enough to warrant a "high-rpm" kit. Maybe if they show the specs of the cam and what exactly the kit does. It mentions speed density, so maybe it would be better for those 93 F-body guys and gals.
01-28-2007, 12:46 AM
#6
Hmmmmm....
Take a look at the dyno charts they have on that page for the same package for the LS1. First off, they show the LS1 they ran making 371hp/399tq. Does that sound like a bone stock LS1, even at the flywheel? Hardly. So take that 365hp number for the LT1 with a grain of salt. Second, what those charts show is, somewhat predictably, a gain in horsepower at higher rpm's, with the improvement starting to show at around 4500. But more importantly, look at the torque curve. Not only is the gain in torque modest by comparison, but below 3200 rpm the torque output actually decreased. I don't know about you, but the massive low end torque of the LT1 is one of the things I love about that engine. Peak torque is at 2400 rpm. I love dipping into the throttle and not needing a downshift to feel that surge of power. If you want high revs, drive an S-2000 or an RX-8. I wonder how an engine with this setup would actually feel if you drove it, compared to stock. Unless all you do is drag race for money, I think that's what really counts.
Take a look at the dyno charts they have on that page for the same package for the LS1. First off, they show the LS1 they ran making 371hp/399tq. Does that sound like a bone stock LS1, even at the flywheel? Hardly. So take that 365hp number for the LT1 with a grain of salt. Second, what those charts show is, somewhat predictably, a gain in horsepower at higher rpm's, with the improvement starting to show at around 4500. But more importantly, look at the torque curve. Not only is the gain in torque modest by comparison, but below 3200 rpm the torque output actually decreased. I don't know about you, but the massive low end torque of the LT1 is one of the things I love about that engine. Peak torque is at 2400 rpm. I love dipping into the throttle and not needing a downshift to feel that surge of power. If you want high revs, drive an S-2000 or an RX-8. I wonder how an engine with this setup would actually feel if you drove it, compared to stock. Unless all you do is drag race for money, I think that's what really counts.
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01-28-2007, 05:53 AM
#8
Apparently, they sell this system in two forms: one that's just a stand alone ECM/Harness that offers no performance upgrades and is designed to work with a bone stock engine for the purpose of swapping it into a vehicle that didn't originally have an LT1, and the "Hi-RPM" version like the previous poster linked which comes with a camshaft and an ECM that's tuned for it.
Here's some prices:
The "Bone Stock" version:
http://paceperformance.com/index.asp...&ProdID=143181
The "Hi-RPM" version:
http://paceperformance.com/index.asp...&ProdID=197447
At first glance, this thing looks like it might be something similar to a F.A.S.T. or an Accel DFI system, but it's lacking one crucial ingredient: tuning software. I'm sure you can guess what that means.
An LE2 package is $1,750. Nuff said.
Here's some prices:
The "Bone Stock" version:
http://paceperformance.com/index.asp...&ProdID=143181
The "Hi-RPM" version:
http://paceperformance.com/index.asp...&ProdID=197447
At first glance, this thing looks like it might be something similar to a F.A.S.T. or an Accel DFI system, but it's lacking one crucial ingredient: tuning software. I'm sure you can guess what that means.
An LE2 package is $1,750. Nuff said.
01-28-2007, 07:43 AM
#9
Engine only dyno numbers are no accessories no intake or exhaust restriction. I would expect aroud 360 from an LT1 with nothing more than maybe rockers, springs, tuning.
Think about it there are guys who roll 300+rwhp with boltons right? Do the math quick, they are at the 365fwhp level.
One of the b-body guys with a T56 swap put down 309rwhp with beehives and rockers and Tri-Y headers being the biggest of the mods.
Think about it there are guys who roll 300+rwhp with boltons right? Do the math quick, they are at the 365fwhp level.
One of the b-body guys with a T56 swap put down 309rwhp with beehives and rockers and Tri-Y headers being the biggest of the mods.
01-28-2007, 02:34 PM
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i definitely would go LE2 over this if i had to choose. but i dont since my car is nicely modded already. maybe we will get lucky and have someone who has this kit or someone who works at painless chime in.
01-28-2007, 03:46 PM
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i have a painless catalog and if memory serves me correct the price on the package is something like 800. and to whoever made the comment that it was really for cars that didnt come equipt with an lt1 youre exactly correct. i was going to swap an lt1 into a 71 camaro ss and that was the kit i was going to buy. turned out i got a great deal on a small block chevy with some vortec heads that was making around 450 hp so i just opted for the sbc. it is the perfect setup for those that dont know anything about wiring.
01-28-2007, 06:58 PM
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I bet that's just a hotcam and you don't even need to rev that high enough to warrant a "high-rpm" kit.
Damn that **** is expensive, how many of those do they expect to sell?
03-26-2007, 01:33 PM
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I realize this thread is a little old but I just happened to cruise by here on Sunday while waiting for the Bristol race to start and stumbled across this. Thought I'd try to put some perspective on it.
First of all, any dyno numbers can be subject to scrutiny, particularly when talking about increases. The question always becomes, "Compared to what?" Without naming names, I've seen manufacturers make HP claims about their products that cannot be substantiated by that product alone. Dig deeper and you'll generally find that there were other products involved as well in creating those HP numbers. What is important, though, is getting an apples to apples comparison. For instance, yes, the early stock LT1s were rated at 275 HP. But how fair or honest would we be to claim a 90 HP increase from stock? Who would install a high performance camshaft in a bone stock engine?
You'll note that the engine we baselined the PERFECT HI-RPM system against was a 331 HP engine. This in itself was not a truly stock setup as we were running it in real world conditions. Real world in this case meaning as you would run an LT1 if you were transplanting it: with aftermarket headers (in this case Hedman), stronger valvetrain, advanced timing, etc. It would have been disingenuous of us to run the stock engine through factory exhaust manifolds and retarded timing. We wanted an honest comparison. Likewise, it would have been pointless to install our PERFECT System with camshaft and leave everything else stock. Who would do this? You'd break the engine if you added that much torque without strengthening the bottom end.
The key point, though, is both engines were tested under similar conditions, the only differences being the camshaft and the ecm. If you look in our 2007 catalog (page 6) you'll note we refer to the LT1 PERFECT engine and the LT1 "Baseline" engine. We don't use the word stock because that would be a impracticle and unfair comparison.
Could we have gotten more HP out of either engine? Probably, but where do you stop? Do we port the heads, change rocker ratios, add nitrous? I mean, come on. We weren't trying to demonstrate our testosterone skills; we were trying to show the difference between our ecm's cal and the stock ecm on similar engines which, in this case, was significant.
Now, why seawolf would state this looks like a total scam is beyond me. We think we have gone beyond the pale in trying to produce verifiable and repeatable performance results. I've seen too many companies promoting bogus claims of a five HP gain here and a ten HP gain there when it's difficult to even measure such increases. Ambient temperatures alone could account for such changes on a day to day basis.
The following post just takes the conspiracy theory even farther. We never said the engine we tested against was bone stock. It would have been disengenous for us to do so. But it shouldn't really make any difference. What we are comparing is the differences in the output of the two ecms - stock and PERFECT. That's all we're saying - all things being equal, replace the stock wiring system and ecm with a PERFECT kit on like engines and you'll see this gain. That's it.
As for the torque curve shifting up the rpm range, that's exactly what a torque curve does when you increase upper end HP. HP is a function of torque (HP=torgueXrpm/5252) so as your upper end HP increases your lower end torque is affected. I've never seen it any other way so it's hardly the gotcha moment the poster implies.
Finally, I'd like to point out that the tuning software we've been developing for the past 24 months is close to being brought to market. So, since you'll be able to recal the PERFECT ecm to whatever changes you have made to the engine, the above will no longer be relevant. You can use whatever cam you want.
People on LS1tech are more technically savvy than most. As such, PERFECT may not be, well, perfect for you. But you have to keep in mind, guys, that not everyone will have your level of knowledge or sophistication and there are a lot of people building muscle cars and street rods that want to install the latest and greatest engine but don't want to have to sit down with a laptop and map out a fuel curve. In fact, there are probably more that don't want to do that than there are those that do.
One thing we'll take from this is to be more expository with every test condition: engine mods, cam specs, exhaust, etc. Maybe that wil help answer some of these questions in advance.
Adrian J. Murray
President
Painless Performance Products
2501 Ludelle Street
Fort Worth, TX 76105
817-244-6212 x1019
First of all, any dyno numbers can be subject to scrutiny, particularly when talking about increases. The question always becomes, "Compared to what?" Without naming names, I've seen manufacturers make HP claims about their products that cannot be substantiated by that product alone. Dig deeper and you'll generally find that there were other products involved as well in creating those HP numbers. What is important, though, is getting an apples to apples comparison. For instance, yes, the early stock LT1s were rated at 275 HP. But how fair or honest would we be to claim a 90 HP increase from stock? Who would install a high performance camshaft in a bone stock engine?
You'll note that the engine we baselined the PERFECT HI-RPM system against was a 331 HP engine. This in itself was not a truly stock setup as we were running it in real world conditions. Real world in this case meaning as you would run an LT1 if you were transplanting it: with aftermarket headers (in this case Hedman), stronger valvetrain, advanced timing, etc. It would have been disingenuous of us to run the stock engine through factory exhaust manifolds and retarded timing. We wanted an honest comparison. Likewise, it would have been pointless to install our PERFECT System with camshaft and leave everything else stock. Who would do this? You'd break the engine if you added that much torque without strengthening the bottom end.
The key point, though, is both engines were tested under similar conditions, the only differences being the camshaft and the ecm. If you look in our 2007 catalog (page 6) you'll note we refer to the LT1 PERFECT engine and the LT1 "Baseline" engine. We don't use the word stock because that would be a impracticle and unfair comparison.
Could we have gotten more HP out of either engine? Probably, but where do you stop? Do we port the heads, change rocker ratios, add nitrous? I mean, come on. We weren't trying to demonstrate our testosterone skills; we were trying to show the difference between our ecm's cal and the stock ecm on similar engines which, in this case, was significant.
Now, why seawolf would state this looks like a total scam is beyond me. We think we have gone beyond the pale in trying to produce verifiable and repeatable performance results. I've seen too many companies promoting bogus claims of a five HP gain here and a ten HP gain there when it's difficult to even measure such increases. Ambient temperatures alone could account for such changes on a day to day basis.
The following post just takes the conspiracy theory even farther. We never said the engine we tested against was bone stock. It would have been disengenous for us to do so. But it shouldn't really make any difference. What we are comparing is the differences in the output of the two ecms - stock and PERFECT. That's all we're saying - all things being equal, replace the stock wiring system and ecm with a PERFECT kit on like engines and you'll see this gain. That's it.
As for the torque curve shifting up the rpm range, that's exactly what a torque curve does when you increase upper end HP. HP is a function of torque (HP=torgueXrpm/5252) so as your upper end HP increases your lower end torque is affected. I've never seen it any other way so it's hardly the gotcha moment the poster implies.
Finally, I'd like to point out that the tuning software we've been developing for the past 24 months is close to being brought to market. So, since you'll be able to recal the PERFECT ecm to whatever changes you have made to the engine, the above will no longer be relevant. You can use whatever cam you want.
People on LS1tech are more technically savvy than most. As such, PERFECT may not be, well, perfect for you. But you have to keep in mind, guys, that not everyone will have your level of knowledge or sophistication and there are a lot of people building muscle cars and street rods that want to install the latest and greatest engine but don't want to have to sit down with a laptop and map out a fuel curve. In fact, there are probably more that don't want to do that than there are those that do.
One thing we'll take from this is to be more expository with every test condition: engine mods, cam specs, exhaust, etc. Maybe that wil help answer some of these questions in advance.
Adrian J. Murray
President
Painless Performance Products
2501 Ludelle Street
Fort Worth, TX 76105
817-244-6212 x1019
Last edited by AJMurray; 03-26-2007 at 02:37 PM.
03-26-2007, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AJMurray
Finally, I'd like to point out that the tuning software we've been developing for the past 24 months is close to being brought to market. So, since you'll be able to recal the PERFECT ecm to whatever changes you have made to the engine, the above will no longer be relevant. You can use whatever cam you want.
Adrian J. Murray
President
Painless Performance Products
2501 Ludelle Street
Fort Worth, TX 76105
817-244-6212 x1019
Adrian J. Murray
President
Painless Performance Products
2501 Ludelle Street
Fort Worth, TX 76105
817-244-6212 x1019
Does this kit allow the motor to rev past 7200rpm?
03-27-2007, 09:46 AM
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[QUOTE]So this new software will allow someone to retune the ecm that comes with the above kit? Does that go for the Hi-rpm kit and the stock kit? Does the software come with the kit?
Does this kit allow the motor to rev past 7200rpm?
Yes, the software will allow the tuning of the ecm, both the HI-RPM and stock versions. The software has to be keyed to the individual ecm so anyone who already has this ecm will need to send it here (no charge) for certifying. The software includes the CD, a dongle key and cable. Yes, it will allow you to rev past 7200.
Future PERFECT Systems will be available (1) as they currently are (stock), (2) HI-RPM version with cam and (3) with programming software. At this stage I'd say we are within a month of having the software available.
I'd also like to point out that we have a new system in development called PowerCom, which will be available this summer. PowerCom will also be programmable with the added benefit of being able to operate both electronic throttle (drive by wire) and e-transmissions. It is for LS1 and LS2.
Sincerely,
Adrian J. Murray
President
Painless Performance Products
2501 Ludelle Street
Fort Worth, TX 76105
817-244-6212 x1019
Does this kit allow the motor to rev past 7200rpm?
Yes, the software will allow the tuning of the ecm, both the HI-RPM and stock versions. The software has to be keyed to the individual ecm so anyone who already has this ecm will need to send it here (no charge) for certifying. The software includes the CD, a dongle key and cable. Yes, it will allow you to rev past 7200.
Future PERFECT Systems will be available (1) as they currently are (stock), (2) HI-RPM version with cam and (3) with programming software. At this stage I'd say we are within a month of having the software available.
I'd also like to point out that we have a new system in development called PowerCom, which will be available this summer. PowerCom will also be programmable with the added benefit of being able to operate both electronic throttle (drive by wire) and e-transmissions. It is for LS1 and LS2.
Sincerely,
Adrian J. Murray
President
Painless Performance Products
2501 Ludelle Street
Fort Worth, TX 76105
817-244-6212 x1019
Last edited by AJMurray; 03-27-2007 at 09:55 AM.
