Maldoror124

Hello guys, bought my first t/a yesterday. I never really dabbed with modifying an engine or buying a modified engine so i would like to ask a few questions to increase my knowledge on the subject.. If some of these end up being stupid questions please bare with me because like i said.. Very Unknowledgable on the subject as of now.


1- what does a 'top end' of a motor consist of and what does a bottom end ? Apparently the whole top end of this one has been done over via new cams, just needs to get tuned (was aware of this before buying). If top end is the cam what would replacing the bottom end consist of ??

2- is it alright to touch the top end and leave the bottom end stock ? I remember reading about blown ls1 motors and someome mentioned how they would put money on how all these motors blowing at the discussion was because people supped up the top end on stock bottom ends.

3- what are some things I can do do give this car more '*****' so to speak and increase the hp? i know theres another thread here asking the same thing, i just wanted to add this while i was in here.. Someone mentioned if you have a different cam you should get a stall converter (mine is auto) which I don't think previous owner did.

4- other than that what's your guys opinion on my buy ? Know its hard to tell from a craigslist picture but the car seems to be everything the ad claims.. Just needs a tune to match the work thats been done.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

There is only one cam in an LS1, it's an OHV (overhead valve) engine.

Top end generally consists of items relating to the valve train, bottom end is items relating to, and including, the crank.




The ad specifically says "this one is done right no expense and time was spared". But it hasn't been tuned for the cam? How could anyone define that as being "done right" and "no expense spared"???

Stock bottom end on an '00 LS1 should be fine with a cam of that size (TSP 224° mentioned in ad) as long as you're not revving it past 64-6600rpm or so. Beyond that, there might be bottom end concerns, and/or if the engine hasn't been maintained well over its life.

You will definitely want a higher stall speed torque converter to take advantage of the cam (in fact, you'd want this even for the stock cam if you're looking for the most from your A4 LS1 car.) 3500 stall speed would be the minimum I would consider for a cam of this size. 4000 would be better, but at that point and above, some people start to get bothered by street manners of the higher stall. You may want to do some more research on this in the auto trans section, and/or find someone locally with a stall speed in that range that would be willing to let you drive their car.

Well again, I don't see how this car was "done right with no expense spared" if it doesn't even have a base tune for the cam, and also doesn't have a well-matched stall speed. I would call those items, especially the tune, pretty important to the overall experience of a modified LS1. Hopefully those are the only things that were missed/skipped.

Maldoror124

Thanks for the reply. As for the tune.. He said told me from the get go that it needed a tune and it was scheduled to go get tuned the day I bought it ironically. Eventually we worked out a price that involved him cancelling that apt and leaving it up to me to go get that tune.

But yes, he did fail to mention that in the ad.

And thank you, i will look in to that stall converter.. Apparently that seems to be a pretty big / important work to get done.. I'll probably look in to that and get it done and be finished after that. Im (as you can tell) no expert so i dont wanna go too crazy. Either way appreciate the input

blackandgold

iTrader: (2)

You're going to see a massive improvement after a tune with the cam and other stuff it's got to be in a funky state now. I also hope you haven't been driving the car much/pushing it at all without a tuner looking at it.

Maldoror124

No i have not. But what are the risks just so i can be aware ?

HCI2000SS

iTrader: (2)

You ask what are the risks driving this thing around without a tune?? How about possibly seizing the motor for strarters lol. I would most definitely not drive this thing hard until you get it tuned. In fact I'd drive it as little as possible until them. You have no idea what may be happening inside the motor right now. That's just my opinion

blackandgold

iTrader: (2)

Your A/F ratio could be way off and/or your timing could be off. It's a relatively small cam, but I'd still be getting it tuned ASAP.

Maldoror124

im not even putting plates on it until i have the funds set aside for a tune. which will be in about a month or so.. the same day it goes on the road is the day its going for a tune. so at most it will be driven about ~30 miles to the shop.

original owner did drive it around for a while though after he got the cam put in, but so far doesnt seem to be any damage.

He told me the tune is about 500 bucks, i'll ask the technician about his opinion on adding a torque converter as well and likely have that done too.. i looked online and seems like thats another 500 dollar or so job as well..

SouthernRex

Personally, with an aftermarket cam with no tune on the computer, I would have that thing towed to the shop just to be safe.

Maldoror124

damn.. okay now let me ask you another thing.. can any regular mechanic shop do a tune or is that something better left up to the performance specialists ?? because i know a mechanic i trust down the street i can have it towed to, but then again hes just a regular mechanic... im not sure if that matters.

blackandgold

iTrader: (2)

Does he have a dyno? Has he tuned an LS motor before?

If the answer to either of these is no, I'd find someone who specializes in the LS platform. Where are you located? Someone on here might know somebody who knows something about making some ponies from an LS1. We might sound overly cautious, but at least out of the people who responded, we just don't want to see you grenade an engine for no reason.

EDIT: since that is a fairly common cam could you get a mail order frost tune and be ok? Not asking OP specifically, but if someone knows.

Maldoror124

No, i completely understand and i appreciate all the help and patience with dealing with my lack of basic knowledge on the subject.

The previous owner had it scheduled to get a tune, he said from a guy that specializes in GM cars, before I bought it off him (long story i really dont want to get in to but i was in a rush to buy). He told me to give him a call when I'm ready to put the car on the road and he will set everything up for me to go meet that guy and get it tuned. The place is about 30 miles away i think, so I'll worry about how to get there when the time comes.

Maldoror124

actually, i just happened to speak to my dads friend about it and he did mention i could just get a tuner online and do it myself.

he said it was pretty much idiot proof so i could just buy one and follow the instructions. I would still rather take it to the GM guy that the previous owner was going to do instead of me ******* around with something i know nothing about.

He also said a lot of places will just tune the car back to GM specs and not account for the cam thats in there now and i should be wary of that. Does that make sense ?

JD_AMG

It does absolutely NOT work like that. The hand held tuners you buy are a joke and you CANNOT properly tune a cammed car with one, it physically doesn't have the parameters you need. You can only adjust very minor things with those like what temp your fans come on and some minor shift point changes.
You need a program like HPtuners to properly tune the car.
You should get the car on a dyno, and hooked up to read A/F ratio.


This is why you should bring it to a reputable tuner. Bringing the car back to a stock tune will only have it running poorly and risking damaging the engine.

blackandgold

iTrader: (2)

If you go with Frost you wouldn't actually be doing the tuning, you either mail in your PCM or get a new one from him, tell him your specs and your mods and he will set up the tune for you. If you had an aggressive cam I wouldn't mention it, but since yours is pretty mild it might be worth giving him a call.

Orange Juice

iTrader: (3)

Just so you understand, tuning is something you either spend a good amount of time reading about and working with or get someone that can monitor your car using a wide band O2 sensor and then changing timing and fuel to get the desired air fuel ratio.
As mentioned a mail order Frost tune would be fine in your situation but tuners are not just mechanics.
Spend lots of time reading this forum and you will be fine. Enjoy the car and be safe.

Duzzi

I'm almost in the exact same situation as the OP. I have a '98 though. From the research I've been doing I anticipate spending about six weeks to tune my own ls 1 for the first time. However I've been a professional mechanic now for 16yrs at a dealership. So there's my advantage. I'd probably not attempt it my self otherwise. Or if you could get a parameter list of a tuned engine with your specs. You could save your current tune, slew the values to match the new parameters and start there as a base tune. Still need an A/F gauge to get started this way as recommended. This is how I plan to start tuning myself. And remember that catastrophic failure can occur in the time frame of milliseconds, IE once you realize there's a problem you may of already lifted a ring land, spun a berring, or broke a rod ect...

Maldoror124

Op here, so i called various dyno shops and texas speed customer support and the general consensus was this;

It should be fine to drive the 224 cam un tuned if im just going down to the shop (ie a one time only short trip), the problem however lies in the shop being 45 mins away and making that long of a commute starts to become a gamble and its up to my call if i wanna risk it.

A torque conventer is not required in a can that size as its a pretty mild cam. However , although not required and u can get away with a stock stall, a converter is highly recommended to get the most out of that cam. A 2800-3000 stall is recommended for that cam (manufacturers recommendation)

And lastly, my biggest concern with putting a stall in.. Is will it risk damaging the tranny due to added stress/heat/etc .. Its an expensive part and one more expensive thing that could break and become costly. Again, general consensus was the as long as you dont beat on it, get a quality converter such as circle D or yanks, and get a cooler it should be fine on a stock transmission and hopefully should not be too much of a problem in terms of needing repairs in the future.


Which is more or less the same thing you guys said, but i was just trying to get as much of an opinion as possible so as to better inform myself.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I think it's good that people above are urging caution, but personally I don't think the car is unsafe to drive with that size cam on a stock tune. I don't see any likelihood of damaging anything under normal (meaning non-WOT) cruising conditions. However, with an A4 trans, it's probably not a joy to drive with the stock tune, likely has several driveability issues due to this and certainly isn't making best power. It was sloppy to call the car "done right" in the ad when the previous owner was obviously aware that the car was untuned.

As for self-tuning, many of us who are not professionals have learned to do this; with some time and research you can get the car running decently. However a professional tune will net better power results in nearly all cases, and is usually money better spent unless you're a steadfast do-it-yourselfer. Unfortunately, some professional tunes are only as good as their dyno numbers, so you want to make sure you get a street tune as well - for best driveability.

I don't agree, I would personally consider it a requirement (and by "requirement", I mean I would not install even a TSP 224 cam unless I definitely planned on a higher stall as well.)

Also, I don't agree with the 2800-3000 recommendation. That's not even big enough to be optimal for a stock cam. 3500 would be the minimum for a cam this size IMO.

Duzzi

Also, I don't agree with the 2800-3000 recommendation. That's not even big enough to be optimal for a stock cam. 3500 would be the minimum for a cam this size IMO.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, you want your converter to flash/stall about 500rpm after your cam comes on. So if your cam is rated from 3000-6500 then a 3500rpm flash is the starting point.