Nitrous gurus Step IN!!
12-29-2009, 05:01 PM
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Nitrous gurus Step IN!! Im would like to do a RELIABLE/SAFE nitrous setup on my C5Z06, and would probly like to start with a 150 shot. I havent decided if id like to go dry or wet yet since i have been reading about the dry plate systems. I will list what i currently have for mods and was wondering what else i would need/ best products to go with.
Engine build:
LS6 block, honed for 3.905" overbore, decked .004" for clean-up/flatness, King's cam bearings, done by TPIS.
Stock LS6 crank, polished and balanced.
Diamond LW forged flattop pistons #11502, weight matched at 404 grams, floating pins.
Probe LW forged I-beam 6.125" connecting rods, 600 grams, ARP bolts.
Clevite coated 'H' main bearings, STD size.
ACL hi-perf/race rod bearings, .001" undersize.
Total Seal (conventional gap) piston rings, 1.5mm/1.5mm/3mm, file to fit.
TSP Comp Cams XER camshaft, 233/239 on 113 LSA, .598"/.603" lift
Manley 7.400" pushrods.
LS2 timing chain.
Ported LS6 oil pump, spring shimmed .060".
LS6 intake port matched to heads.
LS6 throttle body ported and polished.
Granitelli MAF
SVO 30lb Injectors
160 thermostat.
LS6 243 heads, ported and polished, minimal decked, stock valves.
PRC .650" dual valvesprings, machined locks, Titanium retainers.
LS7 Lifters
ARP head bolts.
Keyed SLP UD pulley
Kooks 1 7/8 LTs, Catless Xpipe, B&B bullet catback
Callaway CAI
Lingenfelter LNC-002 (set up as 2step Launch Controller for now)
Centerforce DF 12" Clutch
Im mainly looking for Safety/Reliablity over cutting corners on the price.
i would appreciate any help i could get build a list of Quality parts/packages i should be looking for as well as opinions on safety/packages/Wet,Dry/etc..
Thanks YOU!!
Engine build:
LS6 block, honed for 3.905" overbore, decked .004" for clean-up/flatness, King's cam bearings, done by TPIS.
Stock LS6 crank, polished and balanced.
Diamond LW forged flattop pistons #11502, weight matched at 404 grams, floating pins.
Probe LW forged I-beam 6.125" connecting rods, 600 grams, ARP bolts.
Clevite coated 'H' main bearings, STD size.
ACL hi-perf/race rod bearings, .001" undersize.
Total Seal (conventional gap) piston rings, 1.5mm/1.5mm/3mm, file to fit.
TSP Comp Cams XER camshaft, 233/239 on 113 LSA, .598"/.603" lift
Manley 7.400" pushrods.
LS2 timing chain.
Ported LS6 oil pump, spring shimmed .060".
LS6 intake port matched to heads.
LS6 throttle body ported and polished.
Granitelli MAF
SVO 30lb Injectors
160 thermostat.
LS6 243 heads, ported and polished, minimal decked, stock valves.
PRC .650" dual valvesprings, machined locks, Titanium retainers.
LS7 Lifters
ARP head bolts.
Keyed SLP UD pulley
Kooks 1 7/8 LTs, Catless Xpipe, B&B bullet catback
Callaway CAI
Lingenfelter LNC-002 (set up as 2step Launch Controller for now)
Centerforce DF 12" Clutch
Im mainly looking for Safety/Reliablity over cutting corners on the price.
i would appreciate any help i could get build a list of Quality parts/packages i should be looking for as well as opinions on safety/packages/Wet,Dry/etc..
Thanks YOU!!
Last edited by 06X6spdGTO; 01-01-2010 at 06:51 PM.
12-29-2009, 05:36 PM
#2
You have a nice build there.
Since you are still using the factory pcm the only way I would go dry is if you are using EFI live to controll the fueling and timing for the Nitrous.
Since EFI live actually changes the tune with in the pcm is is reliable and precise.
In my opinion the easiest and most reliable method would be our wet plate system. Our vehicle specific system not only gives the cleanest looking install possible but it is precise fitment. The system comes pre hardlined with custom solenoid mounts and the exact hardware you need. It comes with jetting for 50-200 hp. You can also use it with the factory fuel rail covers. Our wet systems come with solenoids designed to work with todays fuels. You can actualy run strait E85 through our solenoids with no issues.
The plate system can flow more horse power than you will ever need and there are alot of people using our system reliably around 200-250 hp. With that in mind you can grow with our system.
Looking at your modification list fuel supply is going to be something you need to concider. What do you have fuel pump wise?
This is a picture of the GTO vehicle specific system using the fuel rail covers.
Once you choose the system wet or dry you will need the accessories to help the system work safely and to its full potential. We will cover those items after we figure out what system best fits your needs.
Dave
Since you are still using the factory pcm the only way I would go dry is if you are using EFI live to controll the fueling and timing for the Nitrous.
Since EFI live actually changes the tune with in the pcm is is reliable and precise.
In my opinion the easiest and most reliable method would be our wet plate system. Our vehicle specific system not only gives the cleanest looking install possible but it is precise fitment. The system comes pre hardlined with custom solenoid mounts and the exact hardware you need. It comes with jetting for 50-200 hp. You can also use it with the factory fuel rail covers. Our wet systems come with solenoids designed to work with todays fuels. You can actualy run strait E85 through our solenoids with no issues.
The plate system can flow more horse power than you will ever need and there are alot of people using our system reliably around 200-250 hp. With that in mind you can grow with our system.
Looking at your modification list fuel supply is going to be something you need to concider. What do you have fuel pump wise?
This is a picture of the GTO vehicle specific system using the fuel rail covers.
Once you choose the system wet or dry you will need the accessories to help the system work safely and to its full potential. We will cover those items after we figure out what system best fits your needs.
Dave
12-29-2009, 05:58 PM
#4
The stock fuel pump is good for about 450 rear wheel hp. A racetronix system would be good to around 650 rear wheel horse power.
If you are going to be over the 650 rear wheel horse power mark there are a couple different options. In my opnion the most cost affective and best method is our dedicated fuel system.
Dave
If you are going to be over the 650 rear wheel horse power mark there are a couple different options. In my opnion the most cost affective and best method is our dedicated fuel system.
Dave
12-29-2009, 06:17 PM
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i currently have a Walbro 255lph pump i just need the c5 kit for it. so i would probly go that route or if i bought new go with the Lingenfelter c5 Kit.
12-29-2009, 06:23 PM
#6
Ok. As long as you are aware of what is needed to supply the fuel. I am not aware of the lingenfelter fuel kit. I will have to check that out. Thanks for the heads up.
Ok now that we understand about fuel pump lets talk about fuel injector. Do you know what the duty cycle currently is on your injectors? If going dry, depending on the size shot you may nee dto upgrade injectors.
If going wet you will not need to worry about the injectors.
Dave
Ok now that we understand about fuel pump lets talk about fuel injector. Do you know what the duty cycle currently is on your injectors? If going dry, depending on the size shot you may nee dto upgrade injectors.
If going wet you will not need to worry about the injectors.
Dave
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12-29-2009, 06:37 PM
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most i would want to go is maybe a 200 shot after i upgrade the clutch. but the car will probly be a 150 for life car
Im currently using HPtuners Pro for tuning
Im currently using HPtuners Pro for tuning
12-30-2009, 07:56 PM
#10
With the power you are already making using a dry kit that requires or works inconjuction with the mass air meter may become a issue with how much you want to spray. There will be a point to where you will max the mass air meter. There is a BAND AID way around it. Key word Band Aid... You would have to alter your tables there for your N/A tune would be off when you are not spraying.
Now this is avoidable if using EFI Live with the Coss 5. I am not familiar enough with HP tuners to know for sure but I do not believe that HP tuners will work the was EFI Live does.
With EFI live you can swap between tunes when the nitrous system activates. You can tune the fueling tables and timing tables for whats needed with the nitrous.
I think that is really cool and deffintly the best way of doing it if going dry.
Thats why I wanted to know what you are using tuning wise.
If it were my car I would put our wet plate system on it and be done with it.
Once you decide which way you want to go on the actual system you will need to decide what you want to do as far as safety and accessories.
I would suggest using our digital progressive controller with built in windowswitch, tps activation and gear lock out. This will let you set at what RPM the system activates, deactivates and at what valtage you are at wot. It will also help you aid in traction loss by either letting you bring the nitrous is at a certain gear or progressive bring the nitrous in over a period of time.
A Nitrous systems tune is dependant on bottle pressure. With that in mind you will need a bottle pressure gauge and a way to controll pressure.
You can controll pressure by using a bottle heater to heat up the bottle or by using a Nano system which uses compressed air to keep the bottle pressure.
You will need a purge to evacuate the air out of the main feed line and to purge down bottle pressure.
A fuel pressure safety switch is a nice add on that I use on all my installs. If the fuel pump where to fail it will kill the ground to the systems relay so that the system will not work.
You will need a good nitrous filter to keep trash from making its way into your nitrous solenoid. (our solenoids have a screen made into them but I still suggest a filter)
To pass tech at the track you will need a NHRA fitting and blow down tube.
You will need to change the spark plugs. Which plug will be determained by thow much you spray, power level and compression.
And Fuel supply. You have to feed those horses.
Dave
Now this is avoidable if using EFI Live with the Coss 5. I am not familiar enough with HP tuners to know for sure but I do not believe that HP tuners will work the was EFI Live does.
With EFI live you can swap between tunes when the nitrous system activates. You can tune the fueling tables and timing tables for whats needed with the nitrous.
I think that is really cool and deffintly the best way of doing it if going dry.
Thats why I wanted to know what you are using tuning wise.
If it were my car I would put our wet plate system on it and be done with it.
Once you decide which way you want to go on the actual system you will need to decide what you want to do as far as safety and accessories.
I would suggest using our digital progressive controller with built in windowswitch, tps activation and gear lock out. This will let you set at what RPM the system activates, deactivates and at what valtage you are at wot. It will also help you aid in traction loss by either letting you bring the nitrous is at a certain gear or progressive bring the nitrous in over a period of time.
A Nitrous systems tune is dependant on bottle pressure. With that in mind you will need a bottle pressure gauge and a way to controll pressure.
You can controll pressure by using a bottle heater to heat up the bottle or by using a Nano system which uses compressed air to keep the bottle pressure.
You will need a purge to evacuate the air out of the main feed line and to purge down bottle pressure.
A fuel pressure safety switch is a nice add on that I use on all my installs. If the fuel pump where to fail it will kill the ground to the systems relay so that the system will not work.
You will need a good nitrous filter to keep trash from making its way into your nitrous solenoid. (our solenoids have a screen made into them but I still suggest a filter)
To pass tech at the track you will need a NHRA fitting and blow down tube.
You will need to change the spark plugs. Which plug will be determained by thow much you spray, power level and compression.
And Fuel supply. You have to feed those horses.
Dave
12-31-2009, 07:17 PM
#11
The Corvette pumps, unlike the the F-Body pumps will support 500/550hp. My buddy with his C5 100% stock fuel system and a BAP is supporting over 700rwhp. So they are pretty robust. I have a write up on modding the Corvette fuel system to achieve different HP levels and it's pretty easy to get to the 650hp area. I run at that level with the same exact pump you have. Getting the correct information is sometimes difficult. You will not need a dedicated fuel system at your level, I am running past these levels currently without the need and just on a single in tank like your pump. Knowledge is power, and dry technology is key. I will convert it to PDF so as not to link to my site, as I am not a sponsor here.
Dry being my specialty, and my passion, that would be my choice and rec. It works so damn well on the Corvette platform. The HSW dry plate kit and the Interface is absolutely the best cutting edge technology on the planet concerning dry tech. You won't need an expensive tuner program like EFI Live, in particular for set-up as all is there to tune your self, however, if one has a tuner program all the better for over all tuning of other parameters. No other kit on the market allows for complete tuning of the a/f ratio and complete timing pull like the Sudden Impact dry plate kits. They are self contained for tuning. You just need access to a WB to varify a/f ratio for ulimate safety. Check their site for more info.
By the way, unless your going past about 800rwhp, don't be worried that the MAF is going to runout, LOL, another old wives tale, which is dead and buried. Think of all the dry threads where someone had this issue, oh wait, there aren't any, LOL. Dry technology rocks and it can't be stopped. There are 105mm MAFs out now and we just rescale and go to 1000hp plus...
You can dial in the af ratio in 5hp increments leaner or richer, you can't do that with any wet kit in any shape or form. Then timing, you can set up multiple timing pulls, for single stage day, for dual stage day, for roll racing. Each of those saved timing pulls can be custom curves of your choice, meaning, pull max at torque peak, then add some back at the top end if you like. No other timing tool allows this. Then throw in the Microedge for progressing the dry hit, yes indeed, we can now progress the dry. Technology is our friend. Micro computers that interact with the systems main computer is the way of the future. Mechanical failures are much more common than computer failures and thus one reason i like dry over wet, less complicted with mechanical parts...
I have numerous and various dry tuning how-tos and write-ups should you like to hear more. I really have no issues with wet kits if you choose that route, but nothing new there for the last 35 years, so not much to say. Well i guess the advent of the plate kits for the LSx is worthy of mentioning. I would definately go plate kit should you want a wet kit. Make sure you check out the different methods that the various companies use for introducing nitrous with the plates, because, IMO, they are not all even in that regard. Some have better engineered technology than others, and I think there are now like five plate companies?
On your injectors, don't let that deter you from choosing dry tech. Hell, how many times do you hear the n/a guys say, oh don't put bolt ons on your car because you may need injectors, LOL, ridiculous arguing point against the dry tech. Looks as though you'll need injectors soon anyway, if ya add anymore HP. If i were getting 42lb'ers, I would get the Ford SVO. Why? They are about 48lb'ers at our pressure and thus can support a larger overall hp rating. I have a set and went to 644rwhp and 78% DC. Check out the current dry tuning thread for more on injectors.
i would be more than happy to help with any info at all and have helped set up hundreds of Corvettes. I have no dog in this fight, meaning, I am in no way shape or form trying to get into your pockets, I help whom ever for free and always have. So these are my opinions and they are not biased by any company and say what i believe to be true. Good luck on your nitrous venture, wet or dry, you will have the time of your life. The Corvette on nitrous is like the big time wrestler on steroids, LOL, I guess?
Dry being my specialty, and my passion, that would be my choice and rec. It works so damn well on the Corvette platform. The HSW dry plate kit and the Interface is absolutely the best cutting edge technology on the planet concerning dry tech. You won't need an expensive tuner program like EFI Live, in particular for set-up as all is there to tune your self, however, if one has a tuner program all the better for over all tuning of other parameters. No other kit on the market allows for complete tuning of the a/f ratio and complete timing pull like the Sudden Impact dry plate kits. They are self contained for tuning. You just need access to a WB to varify a/f ratio for ulimate safety. Check their site for more info.
By the way, unless your going past about 800rwhp, don't be worried that the MAF is going to runout, LOL, another old wives tale, which is dead and buried. Think of all the dry threads where someone had this issue, oh wait, there aren't any, LOL. Dry technology rocks and it can't be stopped. There are 105mm MAFs out now and we just rescale and go to 1000hp plus...
You can dial in the af ratio in 5hp increments leaner or richer, you can't do that with any wet kit in any shape or form. Then timing, you can set up multiple timing pulls, for single stage day, for dual stage day, for roll racing. Each of those saved timing pulls can be custom curves of your choice, meaning, pull max at torque peak, then add some back at the top end if you like. No other timing tool allows this. Then throw in the Microedge for progressing the dry hit, yes indeed, we can now progress the dry. Technology is our friend. Micro computers that interact with the systems main computer is the way of the future. Mechanical failures are much more common than computer failures and thus one reason i like dry over wet, less complicted with mechanical parts...
I have numerous and various dry tuning how-tos and write-ups should you like to hear more. I really have no issues with wet kits if you choose that route, but nothing new there for the last 35 years, so not much to say. Well i guess the advent of the plate kits for the LSx is worthy of mentioning. I would definately go plate kit should you want a wet kit. Make sure you check out the different methods that the various companies use for introducing nitrous with the plates, because, IMO, they are not all even in that regard. Some have better engineered technology than others, and I think there are now like five plate companies?
On your injectors, don't let that deter you from choosing dry tech. Hell, how many times do you hear the n/a guys say, oh don't put bolt ons on your car because you may need injectors, LOL, ridiculous arguing point against the dry tech. Looks as though you'll need injectors soon anyway, if ya add anymore HP. If i were getting 42lb'ers, I would get the Ford SVO. Why? They are about 48lb'ers at our pressure and thus can support a larger overall hp rating. I have a set and went to 644rwhp and 78% DC. Check out the current dry tuning thread for more on injectors.
i would be more than happy to help with any info at all and have helped set up hundreds of Corvettes. I have no dog in this fight, meaning, I am in no way shape or form trying to get into your pockets, I help whom ever for free and always have. So these are my opinions and they are not biased by any company and say what i believe to be true. Good luck on your nitrous venture, wet or dry, you will have the time of your life. The Corvette on nitrous is like the big time wrestler on steroids, LOL, I guess?
Last edited by Robert56; 12-31-2009 at 07:24 PM.
01-01-2010, 06:14 AM
#12
[QUOTE Nitro Dave]With the power you are already making using a dry kit that requires or works inconjuction with the mass air meter may become a issue with how much you want to spray. There will be a point to where you will max the mass air meter. There is a BAND AID way around it. Key word Band Aid... You would have to alter your tables there for your N/A tune would be off when you are not spraying.
Now this is avoidable if using EFI Live with the Coss 5. I am not familiar enough with HP tuners to know for sure but I do not believe that HP tuners will work the was EFI Live does.[/QUOTE]
The modern dry technology simply takes control and adds fuel via the injectors. If your not running out of MAF N/A you won't be running out of MAF spraying.
The video below shows a nice big dual stage dry spraying through a MAF (look close you can see the stock MAF). Jeremy Foremoto is the premier dry tuning expert, and he was getting north of 700rwhp years ago with stock MAF. Rescaling of the MAF is necessary for big N/A HP gains over stock, it's all relative. The chances of you running out of MAF are slim with what your doing. Then this is only a consideration should you choose the out dated method and put nozzles before the MAF. It is widely known that 700plus HP old school dry is doable with stock MAF.
After the MAF dry technology is leaps and bounds ahead of the pre MAF style dry. I will bet that 90% or greater now go post MAF and Interface, the after the MAF style dry, and the EFI Live could be used too if you have it already. HP Tuner will have the trigger mode soon, like EFI Live, there is a thread on this elsewhere on the site. HP limits with this style, well I haven't heard anyone with a limit yet, and that is due to the fact that we can run what ever size injector we need, up-to 80lb'ers, running still the stock PCM.
Heck, you can even do a Direct Port Dry street/strip set-up and progress it while your at it. You have not these abilities with old school before the MAF style dry. Technology is our friend. The exact workings inside the computer is difficult even for the geekiest of us to explain, however, the bottom line is it works and works well. Safety is job one with the dry, IMO.
Robert
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHR3a-2KnhY
Now this is avoidable if using EFI Live with the Coss 5. I am not familiar enough with HP tuners to know for sure but I do not believe that HP tuners will work the was EFI Live does.[/QUOTE]
The modern dry technology simply takes control and adds fuel via the injectors. If your not running out of MAF N/A you won't be running out of MAF spraying.
The video below shows a nice big dual stage dry spraying through a MAF (look close you can see the stock MAF). Jeremy Foremoto is the premier dry tuning expert, and he was getting north of 700rwhp years ago with stock MAF. Rescaling of the MAF is necessary for big N/A HP gains over stock, it's all relative. The chances of you running out of MAF are slim with what your doing. Then this is only a consideration should you choose the out dated method and put nozzles before the MAF. It is widely known that 700plus HP old school dry is doable with stock MAF.
After the MAF dry technology is leaps and bounds ahead of the pre MAF style dry. I will bet that 90% or greater now go post MAF and Interface, the after the MAF style dry, and the EFI Live could be used too if you have it already. HP Tuner will have the trigger mode soon, like EFI Live, there is a thread on this elsewhere on the site. HP limits with this style, well I haven't heard anyone with a limit yet, and that is due to the fact that we can run what ever size injector we need, up-to 80lb'ers, running still the stock PCM.
Heck, you can even do a Direct Port Dry street/strip set-up and progress it while your at it. You have not these abilities with old school before the MAF style dry. Technology is our friend. The exact workings inside the computer is difficult even for the geekiest of us to explain, however, the bottom line is it works and works well. Safety is job one with the dry, IMO.
Robert
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHR3a-2KnhY
01-01-2010, 10:08 AM
#13
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Robert56 i think i sent you a message on info for a Dry plate kit about a month ago. I would like to here more about it from ya. like i said in the first post i would like the safest setup possible and it is a toss up both ways. Dry Kit only having one noid with less of a chance to lean out due to the second noid sticking.
Nitro Dave what are the chances of Nitrous Backfires on your wet setup and what type of safety precautions are used to prevent them??
Nitro Dave what are the chances of Nitrous Backfires on your wet setup and what type of safety precautions are used to prevent them??
01-01-2010, 06:08 PM
#14
PM me again if you like. I have currently 728 unopened e-mails so I may have got notice but it was likely buried. I will keep my eye out. Now remember, I sell nothing through this site, but would be more than willing to explain anything you like, and help anyway I can. Your on the right track, IMO, seeking a good understanding prior to purchasing anything.
The sticking open noid, or a noid that gets a bad seal is #1 for the back fire issue. The thing is this, annual solenoid maintenance is job one for the owner. the other thing is that a dry kit can run redundant solenoids. that way, if one get a piece of junk in it and sticks open, the back up solenoid will still close. some of NOS's dry kits come with the redundant noid set-up. It is really an easy mod to add at any time should someone like the additional safety. I have been saved numerous times with dual noid setups. If a noid keeps spraying nitrous, a lean back fire is almost a guarantee, and sometimes are not pretty. Don't get me wrong, it's not like it happens everyday, but none the less, does happen on occasion. This is an issue with wet and dry kits, but dry has an easy fix.
Robert
The sticking open noid, or a noid that gets a bad seal is #1 for the back fire issue. The thing is this, annual solenoid maintenance is job one for the owner. the other thing is that a dry kit can run redundant solenoids. that way, if one get a piece of junk in it and sticks open, the back up solenoid will still close. some of NOS's dry kits come with the redundant noid set-up. It is really an easy mod to add at any time should someone like the additional safety. I have been saved numerous times with dual noid setups. If a noid keeps spraying nitrous, a lean back fire is almost a guarantee, and sometimes are not pretty. Don't get me wrong, it's not like it happens everyday, but none the less, does happen on occasion. This is an issue with wet and dry kits, but dry has an easy fix.
Robert
