LS325ci

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for all the reply guys.

This is great news. It's hard to believe that an fbody can be made to handle as well or better than mildly modded e46. After driving my e46 for over a year I'm a bit skeptical still. But then again I have never driven an fbody before.

Btw do all these things apply to convertible as well or does the convertible need a chasis Reinforcement to prevent body flex and such?

Midnight02

iTrader: (8)

^^^^ Very well stated.

Just to be very clear, stock vs. stock there is no comparison....the BMW handles much better. You start to close the gap with choice upgrades (shocks, springs, sway bars), however the f-body will always lack that smooth & efficient application of power.

I really like the way my car feels on the track (upgraded shocks, springs, sway bars, R comp tires, etc.) however it's still heavy and I believe it's always going to feel a bit "raw". Fortunately, where it lacks in refinement, it makes up with power and easy bolt on access to gobs more.

BMR Tech2

iTrader: (5)

I've posted this video before, but this is an ls1 car with bolt ons and our full suspension. It would make even an M3 look silly around the corners. Again, it is all about components that work together in balance

FASTFATBOY

iTrader: (23)

Pretty broad statement on the M3. Don't ya think? BTW the vid is of STi killer, and if it is that car is LS6 powered, not "bolt on's".

The car and driver I posted above would turn that Camaro inside out I do believe.

Too bad the footage doesn't allow anyone to time STi Killer via stopwatch, cant get a bearing on where to time him from.

Not saying your products don't work, what I am saying is a blanket statement like "This car in the this vid will make an M3 look "silly" around corners" is pretty darned ballsy.

I have seen some blistering fast M3's on track, some way more of a street car than STi killer is.

Jus' Sayin'

FASTFATBOY

iTrader: (23)

If you are going to play on track AT ALL get a non vert car.

Here I am at NOLA Motorsports Park back in Dec of last year. I am an "advanced" driver now,that don't mean **** btw, will it means I can go out by myself is all.

My car is still a real, true blue street car I take it on 600 mile one day trips.

Nothing special about the car, most everyone in here has a version of the setup on my car.

With a REAL hotshoe in my car it would be 3 seconds or more faster, my brain is at an impass....or was as we will try again this winter.

This is with the PCA "Yellow" intermediate group, I went out with them to play with some settings on the car. I am a Red Group advanced driver.


Much faster here on Rcomp tires, almost by 5 seconds. Learning the new brakes also. Fun stuff in there somewhere as I spin the car into the esses.

79_T/A

iTrader: (1)

Agreeing with Fastfatboy here, that BMR statement is more than a little ballsy. E46 M3 is incredible on track, it's a very fast car even when stock. Spent plenty of money making my 4th gen to handle; it works well and is fun to drive, but I'm not afraid to admit the BMW has the more capable chassis.

joecar

The F-car is no slouch (don't underestimate it), and it can be had and made to handle/perform much more cheaply than most other vehicles (including BMW).

Carlos01SS

iTrader: (4)

Okay...I've never tracked my car but I set it up to be a great handler.

I've done quite a few canyon runs over here in southern Cal, I've ran with many modified cars and most of them can't keep up with me, that includes modified M3's, M5's, 911's, sTi's, Evo's, etc.

some folks here have seen me run my car in the twisties and hey, any E46 M3 owners out there, I'll be your huckleberry

and truth be told, I've gotten my *** KICKED by a turbo'd modified Lotus Exige, modified TT 2003 Lotus Esprit, and a GT3, those guys left me in the dust, it wasn't even funny.

BMR Tech2

iTrader: (5)

I think people still seriously under estimate the handling potential of these cars. There seems to be a common theory that anything IRS will dominate in the corners. This isn't necessarily the case. A solid axle car with a properly setup roll center and all around balance of parts will easily level the playing field. The video I posted above is slightly deceiving as the yellow 5th gen chasing that car is a HEAVILY modified handling built car (IRS BTW), and the Mustang it passes at the 1:55 mark a is also a pretty seriously built road course car. I have owned 2 BMW's and did the euro car thing for awhile myself. So yes, I do stand by my statement that this car would make and e46 look silly around a roadcourse

BTW the car has a STOCK Ls6 with typical bolt ons. Longtubes, TB, lid etc. no internal mods. This thread has more info on the car and build etc
https://ls1tech.com/forums/multimedi...-killer-2.html

FASTFATBOY

iTrader: (23)

People often confuse fast cars and fast drivers.

Anyone can build a fast car, but not anyone can drive it fast.

Mod for mod the BMW chassis is better. A M3 is built, out of the box for track duty....HARD track duty.

Our cars, not so much.

Anyone that has spent any time at any HPDE event knows there are M3's scattered all over the paddock....there's a reason for that.

I am the only one(that I know of besides my buddy) that does HPDE's with a 4th gen Fbody at Barber, NOLA and Circuit grand bayou. There's a reason for that also lol.

brigade24

Thus far the auburn is doing its job well. It could use a bit more bias...The rear end breaks loose significantly more quickly compared to the stock diff...The car is also easier to rotate since both wheels activate, which is desirable for slaloms and tight turns. the throttle does require more finesse to avoid wheel spin during autox events.

For the most part, the car stays straight when on the power however the watts mitigates the amount of rear steering i've got so i can stay on the throttle and car will come back in line. One thing i like about this diff is under weight transfer you can get on the power earlier as this diff does not open up when the rear gets light.

I would like to try the torsen t2r...i realize the reviews are mixed but would like something to compare to the auburn.

brigade24

+1...All by myself

FASTFATBOY

iTrader: (23)

I put a Detroit TruTrac in mine, only because I got a killer deal on it.

Huge difference, when you can apply more power quicker it makes the car so much nicer to drive hard. Much more rear grip when you can get the weight on the rear sooner.

I couldn't believe the difference, my inside rear would spin as my stock posi was showing it's age.

badformulaLS1

iTrader: (1)

On paper the e46 M3s are nothing special. Having driven one as well (on the street only though, but very spirited driving) I can say it didn't feel like the "ultimate driving machine". It was comfy as hell inside, it rode very smooth, and handled well but I didn't find it to be godlike or so far ahead of my fbody like people are making it seem here. You guys are making it sound like its a purpose built track prepped race car right out of the box.

brigade24

I looked at the TruTrac, liked the fact that it's a helical gear iirc but couldn't find many folks that ran it for lapping and autox so i opted to pass on it.

same here, my stock diff was no longer "differentializing"...i had couple of fellow competitors tell me that my inside wheels were spinning under transfer so it was time for the change.

yes, very nice to be able to put the power down sooner...love it.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Can you make a 4th gen handle? Hell yes. One issue I have with a lot of projects and "how does it handle" things is that folks do two things wrong.

1. They use road course times which isn't just about handling, as you have long straights and power and brakes matter.

2. They use cars with modded motors and such, run a "time" and say *LOOK HOW FAST*

This is why I autocross. It's much more of a pure handling game as you often have more power than you can use stock and a guy just won't walk me on lap times because he can go faster from B to C, even if I kick the **** out of him from A to B in the corner itself.

Let's play the game. I've proven I can make the car handle. I've done in with an LS1 in the car, with stock gears even... with A/C and a stereo... without LCA changes, without LCA brackets, etc. etc. etc.

I also have a HUGE basis for comparison, from a list of National Championships as long as my arm to all the other cars I've setup (and have won) of all sorts. I also race an E46 BMW, have twice this year in fact. I have a C6 Z06. I've won National events in both *this year*. I know what handling is, I know how various cars do it.

Lots of parts exist. Lots of people can sell you "parts", sometimes they might be the same parts (but not usually because I'm not a drag racer pretending to be able to turn). And vice versa I can sell more "drag" parts but I tend to let that to those that know that game better because I don't have the desire to stick my nose in just anywhere.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Here's me earlier this year running said E46 BMW (not an M3, less motor)... for comparison.

A 4th gen with a similar level of prep running the same category level runs the same times (and so does an SSR class C5 or C6 Z06). They all do it differently. But suffice to say if I can make a pony car run that fast.. it's got to handle well considering how much wider and heavier it is. No?

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Honestly, there are two kind of issues with the internet.

1. Lots of squealing and noise from anyone who can post.

2. Anyone can tell you something, fewer can support it with results.

I suspect I'll get blasted for being so blunt, but sometimes I have to be. I don't have a staff of people lurking on forums all day every day to chime in at every opportunity.

tillery

iTrader: (4)

From what have seen is that yes a Fbody can do it. Be it stock or modified. Mr Strano and BMR have both proved that. It's a drivers race.

FASTFATBOY

iTrader: (23)

Say what ya want, I see it at every HPDE I go to. I am the only Fbody in the paddock and there are a buttload of BMW's, E36-E46 M3's in particular.

The M3's 50/50 weight bias, good power and great chassis make it very capable. Hard for the FBody to overcome that, it's physics.

If the F body was "all that" you'd see more of them at track events....and you don't. That in itself speaks volumes for what the BMW is capable of on track.

You see more BMW chassis cars at HPDE events than any other in my part of the country.

Say what ya want Sam, the "M3" chassis BMW is more capable than the Fbody....I see it at every track event I go to.

The fbody is not an "undiscovered gem" in the handling world, there's nothing to discover.

Take a stock E36 M3 and a Stock Fbody of whatever year and flavor you want(SS or WS6) and the BMW will whip it on a track...true story. Never mind about a E46 or E92 M3, no contest there.

BTW that 1:17 lap at Roebling I posted above, The CMC record there is a 1:23. The American Iron record is a 1:20. The M3 bested those times easily, on a street tire with A/C, stock interior.