Need particulars on a cam
11-30-2009, 11:22 PM
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Need particulars on a cam I have seen this and similar cams talked about on here. Never herd anything bad but if you have anything let me know.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LS1-P...item2a030d27c1
I want to build a 408 but I think I might just freshen up th 6.0 and do some bolt ons. I want to keep the budget low that is why I am looking at a regrind. I want the most power and have a 2800 stall and am running nitrous out of the hole. What is the LSA, 112, 113, 114? Does this effect power output? If so I want the most power. I don't drive the truck unless I want to. So no cam is too big as long as it isn't too big for a stock motor.
If someone has a used cam for sale or they see I wouldn't be afraid of that either! I want a huge cam with reasonable price and I have a custom tune from Blackbear so that isn't a problem. Thanks!
P.S. If it matters it is a LQ4
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LS1-P...item2a030d27c1
I want to build a 408 but I think I might just freshen up th 6.0 and do some bolt ons. I want to keep the budget low that is why I am looking at a regrind. I want the most power and have a 2800 stall and am running nitrous out of the hole. What is the LSA, 112, 113, 114? Does this effect power output? If so I want the most power. I don't drive the truck unless I want to. So no cam is too big as long as it isn't too big for a stock motor.
If someone has a used cam for sale or they see I wouldn't be afraid of that either! I want a huge cam with reasonable price and I have a custom tune from Blackbear so that isn't a problem. Thanks!
P.S. If it matters it is a LQ4
Last edited by custm2500; 11-30-2009 at 11:37 PM.
12-01-2009, 05:49 PM
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Explain. I havn't heard a comment like this unless it falls into the "comment about nitrous have no clue what is going on." Now I am not saying you are in this crowd but you didn't give a single reason so I would like to know why. I have seen 3 or 4 threads and everyone who has a cam similar to this is happy with it.
Why 112 over 113? I am will be spraying 200 of nitrous it helps. I ask because seems like the bigger number the more power? Let me know.
Why 112 over 113? I am will be spraying 200 of nitrous it helps. I ask because seems like the bigger number the more power? Let me know.
12-03-2009, 07:06 AM
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Let me put it as clear as crystal water, Predator-Z knows his stuff when it comes to cams. If he says to stay away its not because he wants to be mean. He can answer the question why but give him time because he is a busy man. lol, now that I am done 
. I believe he is saying they are reground cams which cuts the lobes on the cam down to create a newer cam profile while making you have to run longer pushrods. Just do your research and check reputable companies on here cause they aren't going to blow to much smoke up your ***.
. I believe he is saying they are reground cams which cuts the lobes on the cam down to create a newer cam profile while making you have to run longer pushrods. Just do your research and check reputable companies on here cause they aren't going to blow to much smoke up your ***.
12-03-2009, 10:20 AM
#7
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A couple of issues I have with reground cams:
1- Most important in my book, SPECs. Put a reground cam on a camdoctor and watch (keep your mouth closed please). The specs can be soo far off from generic blueprint that it actualy comes out with all kind of messed up valve events. (So poor valve event accuracy.)
2- The hardening process on LS camshafts is induction hardened. That is only done once the cam has been ground and is a surface hardening process. Problem is that you cannot double harden (meaning re hardening an already hardened surface) or you'll have surface distortions. Also very few companies have the necessary equipment to induction harden cams. (issue is therefore unreliable durability of reground cams)
Therefore IMO unless you are on a chassis dyno and wish to R&D different grinds for short periods of operation, I would stay away from reground cams in Daily operations.
1- Most important in my book, SPECs. Put a reground cam on a camdoctor and watch (keep your mouth closed please). The specs can be soo far off from generic blueprint that it actualy comes out with all kind of messed up valve events. (So poor valve event accuracy.)
2- The hardening process on LS camshafts is induction hardened. That is only done once the cam has been ground and is a surface hardening process. Problem is that you cannot double harden (meaning re hardening an already hardened surface) or you'll have surface distortions. Also very few companies have the necessary equipment to induction harden cams. (issue is therefore unreliable durability of reground cams)
Therefore IMO unless you are on a chassis dyno and wish to R&D different grinds for short periods of operation, I would stay away from reground cams in Daily operations.
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12-03-2009, 12:47 PM
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A couple of issues I have with reground cams:
1- Most important in my book, SPECs. Put a reground cam on a camdoctor and watch (keep your mouth closed please). The specs can be soo far off from generic blueprint that it actualy comes out with all kind of messed up valve events. (So poor valve event accuracy.)
2- The hardening process on LS camshafts is induction hardened. That is only done once the cam has been ground and is a surface hardening process. Problem is that you cannot double harden (meaning re hardening an already hardened surface) or you'll have surface distortions. Also very few companies have the necessary equipment to induction harden cams. (issue is therefore unreliable durability of reground cams)
Therefore IMO unless you are on a chassis dyno and wish to R&D different grinds for short periods of operation, I would stay away from reground cams in Daily operations.
1- Most important in my book, SPECs. Put a reground cam on a camdoctor and watch (keep your mouth closed please). The specs can be soo far off from generic blueprint that it actualy comes out with all kind of messed up valve events. (So poor valve event accuracy.)
2- The hardening process on LS camshafts is induction hardened. That is only done once the cam has been ground and is a surface hardening process. Problem is that you cannot double harden (meaning re hardening an already hardened surface) or you'll have surface distortions. Also very few companies have the necessary equipment to induction harden cams. (issue is therefore unreliable durability of reground cams)
Therefore IMO unless you are on a chassis dyno and wish to R&D different grinds for short periods of operation, I would stay away from reground cams in Daily operations.
Guess I am onto looking for used.
12-03-2009, 12:47 PM
#9
To the OP, you have so many misguided ideas that it's going to be hard to un-teach you.
First of all, no regrinds if for no other reason than Pred-Z told you.
Second of all, you're driving a truck. Your statement, "no cam is too big" is the exact opposite of the truth. What you think you're saying is, "no power is too much." That is not what you are saying. Everyone wants all the power they can get; it's like saying, "No amount of sex is too much sex." Yeah. We know.
Along those lines, since you're driving a vehicle that is a.) heavy and b.) a truck, generally speaking, you'll want a smaller cam than a lightweight car.
This next statement is general and oversimplified, but you're a total newb so you have to start somewhere: the smaller the intake and exhaust duration, the lower in the RPM range the cam will start making power. Since your vehicle is heavy, you want to get it up off its *** and since it's a truck, you want that low-end, stump-pulling torque. You'll want a smaller cam.
I tend to tell newbs that the smaller the cam, the faster the car will feel driving around town and everywhere else. Big, giant cams win drag races, but they often feel sluggish from stoplight to stoplight. But, you'll win all-out drag races.
Third, you asked about LSA. We all ask about LSA sometime in our lives as men.
First, read this very, very old cam guide from LS1HowTo.com:
Okay, when you ask, "What is LSA," what you're really asking at this point is, "What is OVERLAP?"
When you're surfing the 'Net and talking to people about making your fist cam buy, you'll just be using LSA to determine the amount of overlap in your cam.
You'll notice that I carry the equation around in my sig and have done so since I bought my first cam years ago: Overlap = {[(Intake duration + Exhaust duration)/4] - LSA} * 2.
So, if you have a 224/224 112 LSA cam, it will have 0* of Overlap. See:
224 + 224 = 448;
448 / 4 = 112;
112 - 112 = 0;
0 x 2 = 0*.
Stock cams have negative Overlap. They have to be somewhat emissions friendly, sound like they are running good to the general public, feel like they are making good power around town, be reliable, not die at stoplights, etc. The higher your Overlap, the less the car has of those things, generally speaking.
Stock cams have like -15* or -25* or whatever; I forget. Drag racing cams have a **** ton. Look at the T-ReX v.2: 242/248 on a 110 LSA. That's 25* if I did the math right.
Look at the F15: 236/239 on a 111. That's 15.5*, again, if I mashed buttons on my calculator right.
Will those cams make **** tons of power? Yes. Will they make an S10 feel like it can out pull a Mack truck? Hell no. You would hate it. It would run like **** and probably feel like your grandma could outrun it in her wheel chair. Again, that's until you mash the gas all the way to the floor. Then, all your truck will do is fry the tires off. And, I don't mean that in a good way. I mean, you'll have no traction with it floored. So, it's a lose-lose.
You want a smaller cam. Probably something in the 220-224 range, maybe with a 112 split. Stay right around 0* of overlap, maybe a little less (as in -1, -2, etc.).
Put in a good cam and some cheap heads on it, and get a damn good tune, and you'll love the truck.
First of all, no regrinds if for no other reason than Pred-Z told you.
Second of all, you're driving a truck. Your statement, "no cam is too big" is the exact opposite of the truth. What you think you're saying is, "no power is too much." That is not what you are saying. Everyone wants all the power they can get; it's like saying, "No amount of sex is too much sex." Yeah. We know.
Along those lines, since you're driving a vehicle that is a.) heavy and b.) a truck, generally speaking, you'll want a smaller cam than a lightweight car.
This next statement is general and oversimplified, but you're a total newb so you have to start somewhere: the smaller the intake and exhaust duration, the lower in the RPM range the cam will start making power. Since your vehicle is heavy, you want to get it up off its *** and since it's a truck, you want that low-end, stump-pulling torque. You'll want a smaller cam.
I tend to tell newbs that the smaller the cam, the faster the car will feel driving around town and everywhere else. Big, giant cams win drag races, but they often feel sluggish from stoplight to stoplight. But, you'll win all-out drag races.
Third, you asked about LSA. We all ask about LSA sometime in our lives as men.
First, read this very, very old cam guide from LS1HowTo.com:
Originally Posted by LS1HowTo.com
Selecting a cam that is right for you
Cam Basics:
When deciding which camshaft is right for you, the best you can do is try to make an educated guess based on previous experiences or other's experiences. There are countless books about camshaft design and theory, so trying to explain what all to choose is pointless and this is why vendors are out there to see what works well in the LS1 for us. They do the research, and thus, they get our money.
When buying a cam, you'll see specs like "220/224 0.550/0.558 114lsa". The first two numbers are intake duration (in degrees) followed by exhaust duration (in degrees). The next two numbers are valve lift for the intake (in inches) and valve lift for the exhaust (in inches).Finally, the last number is the Lobe Separation Angle.
Duration:
Duration really plays a big factor in how the cam will drive and idle. The bigger the duration, the longer the valves stay open, and generally the 'lopier' and worse driving the cam will be. The numbers you'll usually see are the duration in degrees that the valve is open MORE than 0.050" of an inch. Cam cards will also list duration at 0 lift, and that will be a number like 270-290'ish. Cams that have the same duration for intake and exhaust are symmetrical, cams with more intake than exhaust are called "reverse split", and cams with more exhaust than intake are sometimes referred to as "traditional split".
LSA (Lobe Separation Angle):
Lobe Separation Angle, usually referred to as "LSA", is the angle of separation between the exhaust peak and intake peak. The lower the angle, the more the lobes will overlap, and that means more lope, gas smell, and drivability issues...however, the lower LSA can also mean more power and you get it sooner in the RPM range to boot. Duration and LSA are 2 very important items in clueing you into how a cam will idle and drive, although there is a LOT more to a cam than this.
Lift:
Cam lift, in my opinion, is less of a complicated matter on these motors. There's not much of a reason to run less than 0.550" of valve lift, so anything between 0.550 and 0.600" is probably going to be fine. If you have ported heads, it may be best to lean towards cams with 0.570" lift and up as most ported heads will just keep flowing more and more as that valve lift increases. Note that a cam card will show lobe lift, which is the actual lift of the cam lobe. Once you take lobe lift and multiply it by the ratio of the rocker arm (stock is 1.7), you get valve lift.
Lobe Profile
The Lobe profile of a cam basically is the curve at which a valve is opened and closed. Some lobes are very EXTREME and will snap a valve open very quickly and then slam it shut, while others are "softer" and slowly open and close valves. The more extreme the lobe, the noisier your valvetrain will be and the harder it is on your valve springs...however, a more extreme lobe will generally idle better than a less extreme lobe with the same duration at 50 thousandths. If your cam has very aggressive lobes and your cam lift is up there, I'd suggest you try to lighten your valvetrain by getting titanium retainers if possible.
Choosing the cam for you
For cars that need to stay stock sounding and driving, but still want a kick in the pants for horsepower, something between a 214 and 220'ish duration would probably be best. For the majority of the cars out there, anything in the 221-227 range is probably a better selection, and for the guys that want all they can get 228+ duration cam shafts are generally the minimum. As a novice all you can do is ask around, listen to cars, look at track/dyno results, and make your best guess. As long as you pick a cam close to what might fit you (i.e. mild, average, or extreme given the criteria above) you really can't go wrong. It's not a life or death decision here. A few degrees here and there isn't something you should sweat about until you've gotten a few cams under your belt and know more about what you want.
Choosing the valvetrain upgrades:
Now, you can't just throw a cam in and call it a day. At the BARE minimum your valvesprings *must* be replaced with stiffer ones. Whoever sells you the cam can also recommend a spring to go along with it...this is what vendors/shops are for, so you don't need to worry about being an expert on this (although it's not very complicated if you want to learn). Some springs will require aftermarket retainers (it's kind of a hat that sits on top of the spring), some won't, but in general if you go with a very aggressive cam and plan on spinning the engine up past 6600rpms I'd recommend getting Titanium retainers to help reduce the moving mass and keep the valvetrain moving crisply.
Next there are spring seats and valve seals....some spring setups may require you change the spring seat and install new valve seals as well. If your vendor requires you install this, I will cover their install in this document as well. Hardened pushrods will also be highly recommended, although quite a few have just stuck with the stock pushrods and not had issues.
Cam Basics:
When deciding which camshaft is right for you, the best you can do is try to make an educated guess based on previous experiences or other's experiences. There are countless books about camshaft design and theory, so trying to explain what all to choose is pointless and this is why vendors are out there to see what works well in the LS1 for us. They do the research, and thus, they get our money.
When buying a cam, you'll see specs like "220/224 0.550/0.558 114lsa". The first two numbers are intake duration (in degrees) followed by exhaust duration (in degrees). The next two numbers are valve lift for the intake (in inches) and valve lift for the exhaust (in inches).Finally, the last number is the Lobe Separation Angle.
Duration:
Duration really plays a big factor in how the cam will drive and idle. The bigger the duration, the longer the valves stay open, and generally the 'lopier' and worse driving the cam will be. The numbers you'll usually see are the duration in degrees that the valve is open MORE than 0.050" of an inch. Cam cards will also list duration at 0 lift, and that will be a number like 270-290'ish. Cams that have the same duration for intake and exhaust are symmetrical, cams with more intake than exhaust are called "reverse split", and cams with more exhaust than intake are sometimes referred to as "traditional split".
LSA (Lobe Separation Angle):
Lobe Separation Angle, usually referred to as "LSA", is the angle of separation between the exhaust peak and intake peak. The lower the angle, the more the lobes will overlap, and that means more lope, gas smell, and drivability issues...however, the lower LSA can also mean more power and you get it sooner in the RPM range to boot. Duration and LSA are 2 very important items in clueing you into how a cam will idle and drive, although there is a LOT more to a cam than this.
Lift:
Cam lift, in my opinion, is less of a complicated matter on these motors. There's not much of a reason to run less than 0.550" of valve lift, so anything between 0.550 and 0.600" is probably going to be fine. If you have ported heads, it may be best to lean towards cams with 0.570" lift and up as most ported heads will just keep flowing more and more as that valve lift increases. Note that a cam card will show lobe lift, which is the actual lift of the cam lobe. Once you take lobe lift and multiply it by the ratio of the rocker arm (stock is 1.7), you get valve lift.
Lobe Profile
The Lobe profile of a cam basically is the curve at which a valve is opened and closed. Some lobes are very EXTREME and will snap a valve open very quickly and then slam it shut, while others are "softer" and slowly open and close valves. The more extreme the lobe, the noisier your valvetrain will be and the harder it is on your valve springs...however, a more extreme lobe will generally idle better than a less extreme lobe with the same duration at 50 thousandths. If your cam has very aggressive lobes and your cam lift is up there, I'd suggest you try to lighten your valvetrain by getting titanium retainers if possible.
Choosing the cam for you
For cars that need to stay stock sounding and driving, but still want a kick in the pants for horsepower, something between a 214 and 220'ish duration would probably be best. For the majority of the cars out there, anything in the 221-227 range is probably a better selection, and for the guys that want all they can get 228+ duration cam shafts are generally the minimum. As a novice all you can do is ask around, listen to cars, look at track/dyno results, and make your best guess. As long as you pick a cam close to what might fit you (i.e. mild, average, or extreme given the criteria above) you really can't go wrong. It's not a life or death decision here. A few degrees here and there isn't something you should sweat about until you've gotten a few cams under your belt and know more about what you want.
Choosing the valvetrain upgrades:
Now, you can't just throw a cam in and call it a day. At the BARE minimum your valvesprings *must* be replaced with stiffer ones. Whoever sells you the cam can also recommend a spring to go along with it...this is what vendors/shops are for, so you don't need to worry about being an expert on this (although it's not very complicated if you want to learn). Some springs will require aftermarket retainers (it's kind of a hat that sits on top of the spring), some won't, but in general if you go with a very aggressive cam and plan on spinning the engine up past 6600rpms I'd recommend getting Titanium retainers to help reduce the moving mass and keep the valvetrain moving crisply.
Next there are spring seats and valve seals....some spring setups may require you change the spring seat and install new valve seals as well. If your vendor requires you install this, I will cover their install in this document as well. Hardened pushrods will also be highly recommended, although quite a few have just stuck with the stock pushrods and not had issues.
When you're surfing the 'Net and talking to people about making your fist cam buy, you'll just be using LSA to determine the amount of overlap in your cam.
You'll notice that I carry the equation around in my sig and have done so since I bought my first cam years ago: Overlap = {[(Intake duration + Exhaust duration)/4] - LSA} * 2.
So, if you have a 224/224 112 LSA cam, it will have 0* of Overlap. See:
224 + 224 = 448;
448 / 4 = 112;
112 - 112 = 0;
0 x 2 = 0*.
Stock cams have negative Overlap. They have to be somewhat emissions friendly, sound like they are running good to the general public, feel like they are making good power around town, be reliable, not die at stoplights, etc. The higher your Overlap, the less the car has of those things, generally speaking.
Stock cams have like -15* or -25* or whatever; I forget. Drag racing cams have a **** ton. Look at the T-ReX v.2: 242/248 on a 110 LSA. That's 25* if I did the math right.
Look at the F15: 236/239 on a 111. That's 15.5*, again, if I mashed buttons on my calculator right.
Will those cams make **** tons of power? Yes. Will they make an S10 feel like it can out pull a Mack truck? Hell no. You would hate it. It would run like **** and probably feel like your grandma could outrun it in her wheel chair. Again, that's until you mash the gas all the way to the floor. Then, all your truck will do is fry the tires off. And, I don't mean that in a good way. I mean, you'll have no traction with it floored. So, it's a lose-lose.
You want a smaller cam. Probably something in the 220-224 range, maybe with a 112 split. Stay right around 0* of overlap, maybe a little less (as in -1, -2, etc.).
Put in a good cam and some cheap heads on it, and get a damn good tune, and you'll love the truck.
12-03-2009, 12:59 PM
#10
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I know understand and repect preditor-Z's post. But plenty of people make posts similar to his original and have no clue of what is going on. I understand now with the explination of why. I understand quite a bit about cams such as the seperation so that the exaust pulls intake air for power I just didn't know it was LSA.
I have a 2800 stall and with my nitrous and making more power in general it will stall 3200-3500 so a "larger" cam will not hurt me. There is a point that it will hurt but my statement of no cam being to big, had most of it's weight on that it doesn't need to be all that streetable. My truck weighs just over 4000 lbs and is probably getting shortened to a short bed therefore not weight too much more that a street bird or camamro.
I am not a guru but I am not an idiot either. We all keep things simple on the net when typing just as preditor-z said his simple comment.
I have a 2800 stall and with my nitrous and making more power in general it will stall 3200-3500 so a "larger" cam will not hurt me. There is a point that it will hurt but my statement of no cam being to big, had most of it's weight on that it doesn't need to be all that streetable. My truck weighs just over 4000 lbs and is probably getting shortened to a short bed therefore not weight too much more that a street bird or camamro.
I am not a guru but I am not an idiot either. We all keep things simple on the net when typing just as preditor-z said his simple comment.
12-03-2009, 01:57 PM
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With weight reduction, stall speed decreases. I personally think that a 3200-3600 is good for a stock internal motor. Even a 220s cam I think needs a minimum 3600 but 4k more preferable. I ran a tr224 with a 3200 and there were still dead spots. Tr224 with a 4k = no dead spots. Also, I understand you are gonna be running spray and I'm refering to NA. My point is, cam and converter selection go hand in hand.
12-03-2009, 06:04 PM
#13
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Maybe step down a bit to a high 220 cam? I don't want to go low 220. I am going to look used and if I don't find anything soon I will drop the cash to go new and look for a big stick.
12-03-2009, 11:40 PM
#14
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With the low compression of a LQ4, I would look at a smaller than you mentionned cam (especialy for the small stall).
To make power, you want to increase cylinder pressures. Your nitrous is helping that. Also what you should look at is proper overlap. About 9>12* max
How much nitrous do you plan on using?
To make power, you want to increase cylinder pressures. Your nitrous is helping that. Also what you should look at is proper overlap. About 9>12* max
How much nitrous do you plan on using?
12-05-2009, 07:45 AM
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12-05-2009, 08:25 AM
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Well I didn't realize that the stock cam was so small compared to event a 220s cam! I just see everyone with a 220s cam it is the norm. So I figured bigger than the norm is better. But compared to my stock cam it has quite a bit of lift and duration more than what i have now. So I am now well informed and understand that the 220s aren't small but more of a mid range so I a content.
Thanks for all of your info. Sorry to sound like a know it all but like I said I have a good deal of knowledge of what is going on just didn't take the "particulars" into account and that is why I started this thread!
Thanks for all of your info. Sorry to sound like a know it all but like I said I have a good deal of knowledge of what is going on just didn't take the "particulars" into account and that is why I started this thread!
