Another 416 cam question
Another 416 cam question I am in need of a little wisdom from folks that have been there and done it. I'm planning to build a 416 LS3 for my C6 this winter. Here's what I have to work with:
*LS3 block
*LS3 heads CNC ported by Tx Speed milled .010 (can mill more if needed). Absolutely not interested in spending big
money on cylinder heads. What I have now is what I'm going to use. I have access to good quality 93 octane fuels.
*LS3 intake mani ported and rod modded by Gwatney.
*1.875" Kooks long tubes with 3" non catted mid pipes and Corsa Sport Z06/ZR1 mufflers.
*Not sure on the rotating assembly but it will be all forged and shooting for static compression ratio around 11.5:1.
I guess my main questions revolve around cam selection. My current cam, with SBE LS3 is a 226/234 115+4 with .620 lift on both sides. Through milling and thinner head gasket, the static CR is around 11.3:1. It pulls really nice from idle to 7K rpm with a Pat G tune. Manners are excellent. I have no interest in compromising manners to get a few more HP.
So, what cam specs would you suggest that would make significantly more power with a 416 while retaining the manners I have now? How much overlap in a 416 would be similar to 0 overlap in a stock cubed LS3 as far a manners go? I'm comfortable coming up with cam specs for LS2/3 engines. Clueless for the bigger engines.
Help appreciated.
*LS3 block
*LS3 heads CNC ported by Tx Speed milled .010 (can mill more if needed). Absolutely not interested in spending big
money on cylinder heads. What I have now is what I'm going to use. I have access to good quality 93 octane fuels.
*LS3 intake mani ported and rod modded by Gwatney.
*1.875" Kooks long tubes with 3" non catted mid pipes and Corsa Sport Z06/ZR1 mufflers.
*Not sure on the rotating assembly but it will be all forged and shooting for static compression ratio around 11.5:1.
I guess my main questions revolve around cam selection. My current cam, with SBE LS3 is a 226/234 115+4 with .620 lift on both sides. Through milling and thinner head gasket, the static CR is around 11.3:1. It pulls really nice from idle to 7K rpm with a Pat G tune. Manners are excellent. I have no interest in compromising manners to get a few more HP.
So, what cam specs would you suggest that would make significantly more power with a 416 while retaining the manners I have now? How much overlap in a 416 would be similar to 0 overlap in a stock cubed LS3 as far a manners go? I'm comfortable coming up with cam specs for LS2/3 engines. Clueless for the bigger engines.
Help appreciated.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 22,291
Likes: 3,616
From: Central Cal.
I would present your questions to Mr. Tony Mamo.
If anyone could keep an engine mild-mannered while shoving more cam into it, it would be him.
He would know where to go up on the cam while minimally affecting manners, if at all.
I'm not saying he works motor miracles, but he seems to do it regardless.
If anyone could keep an engine mild-mannered while shoving more cam into it, it would be him.
He would know where to go up on the cam while minimally affecting manners, if at all.
I'm not saying he works motor miracles, but he seems to do it regardless.
I personally would not have the heads ported. The LS3 ports are plenty big enough…almost too big…to support what your doing. You can easily go 12:1 with 93 pump gas. Compression adds torque and efficiency. Just wrapped up a C6 build here, that we went 12:1 on. Pump 93 and it runs great. Zero knock. I also would not go crazy on camshaft here either. Consider a 232/240ish camshaft with the same .620 lift you’re currently running on a 114+3. Just my 2 pennies here…
I personally would not have the heads ported. The LS3 ports are plenty big enough…almost too big…to support what your doing. You can easily go 12:1 with 93 pump gas. Compression adds torque and efficiency. Just wrapped up a C6 build here, that we went 12:1 on. Pump 93 and it runs great. Zero knock. I also would not go crazy on camshaft here either. Consider a 232/240ish camshaft with the same .620 lift you’re currently running on a 114+3. Just my 2 pennies here…
I know Mamo would be the go to guy for cam help. I'm just afraid he would talk me into some high dollar heads. I'd rather keep that money in house. I know HP wouldn't be what it could be. I'm OK with that.
Upping the static to 12;1 sounds good to me.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: May 2008
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From: Carnation, WA
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Verdad Gallardo Is that a shelf cam or custom? It will definitely have a Pat G tune (if he's available). He's not but a little over two hours away from home. Little to no city driving between he and I. I like it that way.
This is pretty much what motorhead and I thought. We figured the 416 will swallow a 6° overlap increase with no problem. We also figured the 232°/240° duration and keeping the same 620" lift Scott mentioned. A 416 is only 1.5 cubes/cylinder less than my 427. I ran a 232°/250° 112° LSA in my A4 C5. I think most people here would be rather surprised at how civilized it drove. IDK what trans OM has in his C6. Guess we were pretty damn close, OM!! Time to start the parts gathering, and down the rabbit hole you go!!!
TECH Regular
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 418
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From: Franconia, PA
I say the summit cam in this thread. It's the 8710: 230/242, .625, .605, 113+3. Has overlap of 10 but an awesome torque curve and good driving manners in this ls3. Should be even better in a 416.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...o-results.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...o-results.html
I would love to get Pat's thoughts on this. On his website, he states that he doesn't make cam recommendations any more....unless something has changed that I'm not aware of.
I would think a recommendation and buying a custom spec cam from him would be different but who knows. That would be the path I take. same thing I did with Tony Mamo. People don't give him enough credit for it but Tony is VERY good at custom spec'ing a cam. Wouldn't hurt to talk to Pat G. over the phone or email though. I would specifically mention you want to buy, not just fishing for specs though.
Probably doesn't make cam recommendations anymore due to someone raising Hell with him about a cam he spec'd for them. One thing about cams that I do know, and know you do, too, is that you have to be honest with yourself as to what you really want, and how you'll use the car. I'm guessing that someone was dreaming about a race car they'll never have, and told Pat they'll be racing it every weekend, and one or two days mid week. Probably left out the daily driver part, and he ended up with a bucking bronco nobody could tune, and he blamed it on Pat. My .02.....
[QUOTE=grinder11;20579297]Probably doesn't make cam recommendations anymore due to someone raising Hell with him about a cam he spec'd for them. One thing about cams that I do know, and know you do, too, is that you have to be honest with yourself as to what you really want, and how you'll use the car. I'm guessing that someone was dreaming about a race car they'll never have, and told Pat they'll be racing it every weekend, and one or two days mid week. Probably left out the daily driver part, and he ended up with a bucking bronco nobody could tune, and he blamed it on Pat. My .02.....[/QUOT
You can't make everyone happy. Some will criticize a certain set of specs based on their experience with exactly one cam and one tuner. I try to listen to the guys that have been there and done it multiple times over multiple years on multiple platforms. I've been around long enough to know how to sift through the BS. You know EXATLY what I mean....
I went to Pat's website today. He offers his services as a build consultant. Charges a little more than he did for just cam specs. What he charges if very reasonable compared to what could happen if you make even a minor mistake (preventable with knowledge) in your build.
You can't make everyone happy. Some will criticize a certain set of specs based on their experience with exactly one cam and one tuner. I try to listen to the guys that have been there and done it multiple times over multiple years on multiple platforms. I've been around long enough to know how to sift through the BS. You know EXATLY what I mean....
I went to Pat's website today. He offers his services as a build consultant. Charges a little more than he did for just cam specs. What he charges if very reasonable compared to what could happen if you make even a minor mistake (preventable with knowledge) in your build.
[QUOTE=old motorhead;20579301] I agree 100%.
Probably doesn't make cam recommendations anymore due to someone raising Hell with him about a cam he spec'd for them. One thing about cams that I do know, and know you do, too, is that you have to be honest with yourself as to what you really want, and how you'll use the car. I'm guessing that someone was dreaming about a race car they'll never have, and told Pat they'll be racing it every weekend, and one or two days mid week. Probably left out the daily driver part, and he ended up with a bucking bronco nobody could tune, and he blamed it on Pat. My .02.....[/QUOT
You can't make everyone happy. Some will criticize a certain set of specs based on their experience with exactly one cam and one tuner. I try to listen to the guys that have been there and done it multiple times over multiple years on multiple platforms. I've been around long enough to know how to sift through the BS. You know EXATLY what I mean....
I went to Pat's website today. He offers his services as a build consultant. Charges a little more than he did for just cam specs. What he charges if very reasonable compared to what could happen if you make even a minor mistake (preventable with knowledge) in your build.
You can't make everyone happy. Some will criticize a certain set of specs based on their experience with exactly one cam and one tuner. I try to listen to the guys that have been there and done it multiple times over multiple years on multiple platforms. I've been around long enough to know how to sift through the BS. You know EXATLY what I mean....
I went to Pat's website today. He offers his services as a build consultant. Charges a little more than he did for just cam specs. What he charges if very reasonable compared to what could happen if you make even a minor mistake (preventable with knowledge) in your build.
I am in need of a little wisdom from folks that have been there and done it. I'm planning to build a 416 LS3 for my C6 this winter. Here's what I have to work with:
*LS3 block
*LS3 heads CNC ported by Tx Speed milled .010 (can mill more if needed). Absolutely not interested in spending big
money on cylinder heads. What I have now is what I'm going to use. I have access to good quality 93 octane fuels.
*LS3 intake mani ported and rod modded by Gwatney.
*1.875" Kooks long tubes with 3" non catted mid pipes and Corsa Sport Z06/ZR1 mufflers.
*Not sure on the rotating assembly but it will be all forged and shooting for static compression ratio around 11.5:1.
I guess my main questions revolve around cam selection. My current cam, with SBE LS3 is a 226/234 115+4 with .620 lift on both sides. Through milling and thinner head gasket, the static CR is around 11.3:1. It pulls really nice from idle to 7K rpm with a Pat G tune. Manners are excellent. I have no interest in compromising manners to get a few more HP.
So, what cam specs would you suggest that would make significantly more power with a 416 while retaining the manners I have now? How much overlap in a 416 would be similar to 0 overlap in a stock cubed LS3 as far a manners go? I'm comfortable coming up with cam specs for LS2/3 engines. Clueless for the bigger engines.
Help appreciated.
*LS3 block
*LS3 heads CNC ported by Tx Speed milled .010 (can mill more if needed). Absolutely not interested in spending big
money on cylinder heads. What I have now is what I'm going to use. I have access to good quality 93 octane fuels.
*LS3 intake mani ported and rod modded by Gwatney.
*1.875" Kooks long tubes with 3" non catted mid pipes and Corsa Sport Z06/ZR1 mufflers.
*Not sure on the rotating assembly but it will be all forged and shooting for static compression ratio around 11.5:1.
I guess my main questions revolve around cam selection. My current cam, with SBE LS3 is a 226/234 115+4 with .620 lift on both sides. Through milling and thinner head gasket, the static CR is around 11.3:1. It pulls really nice from idle to 7K rpm with a Pat G tune. Manners are excellent. I have no interest in compromising manners to get a few more HP.
So, what cam specs would you suggest that would make significantly more power with a 416 while retaining the manners I have now? How much overlap in a 416 would be similar to 0 overlap in a stock cubed LS3 as far a manners go? I'm comfortable coming up with cam specs for LS2/3 engines. Clueless for the bigger engines.
Help appreciated.
What Cam choice did you arrive at?
I am planning either a 427 or 416. I know what works in a 427, but not in a 416. I am aiming for a perfect balance. At least 530whp, but want 500wtq in the mid range. My current LS3 manual with cam with 3.91 gears has 19 degrees of overlap. Looking to knock that down some with the 416 but also make a good bit more power and torque.