I called Bosch tech re: slow oxygen sensors
Originally Posted by spy2520
anybody had different results with Denso sensors?
I have these codes turned off and it has not caused
open loop operation. "No Error Reported".
I spoke with a Bosch tech a couple of weeks back who
had no knowledge of individual sensors' heater wattage
and said Bosch considered it "engineering info" and not
for public release. He suggested I measure mine, but
this was not helpful in selecting others.
If you have a 13111, measure up the heater resistance
for me.
The other aspect is, the amount of temperature rise
required to get happy. Heater power is fine but it is
taken away by gas stream and conductive thermal
paths. Sensor construction can vary the power
-needed- to stay lit. The Bosch planar types are
supposed to need less. But Bosch tech would not
tell me if they also have less heater.
My Densos are slow but good enough so far, other
than the one code pair.
open loop operation. "No Error Reported".
I spoke with a Bosch tech a couple of weeks back who
had no knowledge of individual sensors' heater wattage
and said Bosch considered it "engineering info" and not
for public release. He suggested I measure mine, but
this was not helpful in selecting others.
If you have a 13111, measure up the heater resistance
for me.
The other aspect is, the amount of temperature rise
required to get happy. Heater power is fine but it is
taken away by gas stream and conductive thermal
paths. Sensor construction can vary the power
-needed- to stay lit. The Bosch planar types are
supposed to need less. But Bosch tech would not
tell me if they also have less heater.
My Densos are slow but good enough so far, other
than the one code pair.
Originally Posted by jimmyblue
I have these codes turned off and it has not caused
open loop operation. "No Error Reported".
I spoke with a Bosch tech a couple of weeks back who
had no knowledge of individual sensors' heater wattage
and said Bosch considered it "engineering info" and not
for public release. He suggested I measure mine, but
this was not helpful in selecting others.
If you have a 13111, measure up the heater resistance
for me.
The other aspect is, the amount of temperature rise
required to get happy. Heater power is fine but it is
taken away by gas stream and conductive thermal
paths. Sensor construction can vary the power
-needed- to stay lit. The Bosch planar types are
supposed to need less. But Bosch tech would not
tell me if they also have less heater.
My Densos are slow but good enough so far, other
than the one code pair.
open loop operation. "No Error Reported".
I spoke with a Bosch tech a couple of weeks back who
had no knowledge of individual sensors' heater wattage
and said Bosch considered it "engineering info" and not
for public release. He suggested I measure mine, but
this was not helpful in selecting others.
If you have a 13111, measure up the heater resistance
for me.
The other aspect is, the amount of temperature rise
required to get happy. Heater power is fine but it is
taken away by gas stream and conductive thermal
paths. Sensor construction can vary the power
-needed- to stay lit. The Bosch planar types are
supposed to need less. But Bosch tech would not
tell me if they also have less heater.
My Densos are slow but good enough so far, other
than the one code pair.
I asked about the planar sensors and the gentleman from Bosch said using them would require PCM adjustments. And I noticed on their website they tout the planar senors as heating up faster, but nothing about them functioning better in cooler exhaust environments.
FWIW, my brothers 96 Cobra uses the planar sensors, front and rear.
I have had my Hooker LTs on since 2002. About 2004 I replaced my factory stock O2 sensors (which had extensions for the LTs) with Denso units. Today my Densos are still oscillating just like stock. The only codes I had to turn off were the O2 Sensor 2 codes.
I have tuned some cars that had 13111 installed and they switched slower, sometimes bad enough to fall out of closed loop. I recommend they swap to F-Body rears and Densos, their O2 switched much better. Just my experience.
I have tuned some cars that had 13111 installed and they switched slower, sometimes bad enough to fall out of closed loop. I recommend they swap to F-Body rears and Densos, their O2 switched much better. Just my experience.
Originally Posted by ShevrolayZ28
I'll measure the heater resistance tomorrow. I don't recall which wire is the heater though. Maybe I can look that up somewhere.
All Bosch 4-wire sensors have a black wire for the signal, a gray wire for ground and 2 white wires for the heater. Note: the wire colors and functions on non-Bosch sensors are not necessarily the same as on Bosch sensors.
http://www.boschautoparts.com/RB.NA....=NoModifyGuest
http://www.boschautoparts.com/RB.NA....=NoModifyGuest
Originally Posted by ZL1Killa
if you turn them off, your car goes into open loop and you don't know it unless you have a wideband setup to see it.
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Removing the code is not fixing it.Also the injector offset is not doing it.There is a problem and it just might be a lack of the 02 protruding into the headers.
This is a mild car that I tuned.Out of the last 100 cars this is the only one that has this problem.We've done cars milder and alot more built than this without a problem,at cruise they will switch like a stock setup. This car switches like long rolling hills which tells me it's something to do with the header/install.
I can set it to a no -error setup but that won't fix the problem.
This is a mild car that I tuned.Out of the last 100 cars this is the only one that has this problem.We've done cars milder and alot more built than this without a problem,at cruise they will switch like a stock setup. This car switches like long rolling hills which tells me it's something to do with the header/install.
I can set it to a no -error setup but that won't fix the problem.
I'd really like to solve the problem rather than have the codes deleted. I checked ground wires and they are all secure, as far as I can tell. In particular, the braided ground by the alternator is secure and shares bolt with another wire where they attach to the chassis.
I think when I install the new sensors I will grind off some of the bung so that the sensor sticks into the pipe a little more.
I might also wrap the collectors and the lower part of the primary tubes, hoping they'll hold more heat.
JimmyBlue, sorry I did not have time to measure the heater resistance. I had to hurry because I had a guy at Advance Auto Parts that was willing to give me a new pair of 13111's for free. (The manager wanted to bust my ***** about it.) Maybe I can measure tomorrow. There's no chance I could damage the sensor with the meter, is there?
Last edited by ShevrolayZ28; Sep 29, 2006 at 08:06 PM.
Also consider that with no backpressure from a free flowing exhaust, the exhaust gasses will be cooler than if you had stock manifolds and cats building pressure and raising temps (Charles' Law). I wonder how much of a difference this would make in real world applications... anyone know what kind of PSI can be found upstream from the cats vs. without cats?
Originally Posted by GuitsBoy
Also consider that with no backpressure from a free flowing exhaust, the exhaust gasses will be cooler than if you had stock manifolds and cats building pressure and raising temps (Charles' Law). I wonder how much of a difference this would make in real world applications... anyone know what kind of PSI can be found upstream from the cats vs. without cats?
Originally Posted by Slowhawk
Removing the code is not fixing it.Also the injector offset is not doing it.There is a problem and it just might be a lack of the 02 protruding into the headers.
This is a mild car that I tuned.Out of the last 100 cars this is the only one that has this problem.We've done cars milder and alot more built than this without a problem,at cruise they will switch like a stock setup. This car switches like long rolling hills which tells me it's something to do with the header/install.
I can set it to a no -error setup but that won't fix the problem.
This is a mild car that I tuned.Out of the last 100 cars this is the only one that has this problem.We've done cars milder and alot more built than this without a problem,at cruise they will switch like a stock setup. This car switches like long rolling hills which tells me it's something to do with the header/install.
I can set it to a no -error setup but that won't fix the problem.
the injector offset does do it, as it worked for me. but my case it was the injectors. i will also say that it is a lack of the 02s protruding into the header/exhaust flow. if you did swap injectors or install new ones, check it out. as that did fix my problems. if you don't want to do it... go ahead and buy new headers, go ahead and buy new 02's, just keep going. thats all we do.
hell if you want to find out if the 02 protrudes enough or doesn't
cut a whole or cut the header and insert 02.... then just re-weld it
i know i don't have a problem with my kooks headers
cut a whole or cut the header and insert 02.... then just re-weld it
i know i don't have a problem with my kooks headers
I've been thinking about just wrapping the area maybe +/- 4"
from the bungs, this ought to cut down the straight conductive
losses from the heater leaving only the gas cooling effects.
At idle I don't expect there is a significant pressure rise in the
pipe (stock vs headers) so no big temp effect there. Not like
WOT, you're talking airflows of 10-15g/sec at idle vs 400-500
at WOT (or more on a healthy built motor).
The stick-in is a good point, you could probably gauge it just
by measuring before install.
A bogus injector offset is going to require the trim loop to do
more work and potentially even fail, if your minimum pulse
width is too high that's another bind that might make them
stick rich. But in general I've seen them favor the mostly-low
condition (which is what cold makes). Decreasing proportional
fuel should make the fuel swing tighter and increase switch
rates, not much guidance to go on there however (cut and
try).
from the bungs, this ought to cut down the straight conductive
losses from the heater leaving only the gas cooling effects.
At idle I don't expect there is a significant pressure rise in the
pipe (stock vs headers) so no big temp effect there. Not like
WOT, you're talking airflows of 10-15g/sec at idle vs 400-500
at WOT (or more on a healthy built motor).
The stick-in is a good point, you could probably gauge it just
by measuring before install.
A bogus injector offset is going to require the trim loop to do
more work and potentially even fail, if your minimum pulse
width is too high that's another bind that might make them
stick rich. But in general I've seen them favor the mostly-low
condition (which is what cold makes). Decreasing proportional
fuel should make the fuel swing tighter and increase switch
rates, not much guidance to go on there however (cut and
try).
Originally Posted by jimmyblue
I've been thinking about just wrapping the area maybe +/- 4"
from the bungs, this ought to cut down the straight conductive
losses from the heater leaving only the gas cooling effects.
At idle I don't expect there is a significant pressure rise in the
pipe (stock vs headers) so no big temp effect there. Not like
WOT, you're talking airflows of 10-15g/sec at idle vs 400-500
at WOT (or more on a healthy built motor).
The stick-in is a good point, you could probably gauge it just
by measuring before install.
A bogus injector offset is going to require the trim loop to do
more work and potentially even fail, if your minimum pulse
width is too high that's another bind that might make them
stick rich. But in general I've seen them favor the mostly-low
condition (which is what cold makes). Decreasing proportional
fuel should make the fuel swing tighter and increase switch
rates, not much guidance to go on there however (cut and
try).
from the bungs, this ought to cut down the straight conductive
losses from the heater leaving only the gas cooling effects.
At idle I don't expect there is a significant pressure rise in the
pipe (stock vs headers) so no big temp effect there. Not like
WOT, you're talking airflows of 10-15g/sec at idle vs 400-500
at WOT (or more on a healthy built motor).
The stick-in is a good point, you could probably gauge it just
by measuring before install.
A bogus injector offset is going to require the trim loop to do
more work and potentially even fail, if your minimum pulse
width is too high that's another bind that might make them
stick rich. But in general I've seen them favor the mostly-low
condition (which is what cold makes). Decreasing proportional
fuel should make the fuel swing tighter and increase switch
rates, not much guidance to go on there however (cut and
try).
Mine did it with stock injectors and slp headers.I thinned the bung on the headers with
no help.I changed to edelbrock race victors,had them coated and it still did it.Killed the codes and did not look back.I monitor o2 switching with a scanmaster mounted in the
car when the laptop isn't in it.This happened with both the stock delco sensors and the
denso's I am useing now.
no help.I changed to edelbrock race victors,had them coated and it still did it.Killed the codes and did not look back.I monitor o2 switching with a scanmaster mounted in the
car when the laptop isn't in it.This happened with both the stock delco sensors and the
denso's I am useing now.
How is this or any of the affected exhaust systems for that matter installed? Welded or some sort of clamp? I was plauged with these codes for a while until I finally just had the whole thing welded up and bingo- no more insufficient codes. Any leak within 12 inches or so will set these codes off.
Originally Posted by jimmyblue
Measured a stock front at 4.5 ohms (cold) this
morning. That's 42W at 13.8V although power
will drop as heater temp rises and the element
resistance goes up.
morning. That's 42W at 13.8V although power
will drop as heater temp rises and the element
resistance goes up.
so these are -lower- wattage than stock. So there goes that
myth.
I ground down one of the bungs by about 1/4" but didn't have time to finish. Unfortunately, this project will have to wait until next weekend because I was busy all afternoon putting springs and shocks on my brother's Cobra - what fun that was!
But I can see from watching the oxygen sensor voltage on my scanner as I drive along, that the voltage rarely drops below 450 mV. That means the sensors are reporting a rich condition most of the time.
-I would expect that a lack of heat would cause the sensor voltage to stay low....That's not what I'm seeing on my scanner.
-An exhaust leak would cause a lean reading (low voltage)....and that's not what I'm seeing.
I might put it back together with only one bung ground down and then see what happens. Boy! This problem is a head scratcher
Thanks for everyone's assistance. It is much appreciated. Hopefully we can figure this out.
But I can see from watching the oxygen sensor voltage on my scanner as I drive along, that the voltage rarely drops below 450 mV. That means the sensors are reporting a rich condition most of the time.
-I would expect that a lack of heat would cause the sensor voltage to stay low....That's not what I'm seeing on my scanner.
-An exhaust leak would cause a lean reading (low voltage)....and that's not what I'm seeing.
I might put it back together with only one bung ground down and then see what happens. Boy! This problem is a head scratcher
Thanks for everyone's assistance. It is much appreciated. Hopefully we can figure this out.