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Lets build a mid-engine Trans Am - need advice

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Old Dec 21, 2008 | 03:20 PM
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Here is a handy diagram I whipped up. It's measured from the front of the block. LSX motor, 4L60E trans and C5 diff.

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Here's the link to the belt drive setup.
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tech...t-1000-hp.html

It was made for guys building mid-engine replica cars with big engines, but who didn't want to pay out the @ss for an exotic transaxle. What I can't figure out is what the silver cogs are spinning on. The belt needs to be pretty tight to keep from slipping so those front cogs are going to want to tilt to the rear. Do they use a single bearing on the inner side?

The idea was to make a automatic paddle shift transaxle that could handle a 1000 hp easy. And have less parasitic loss than a conventional transaxle. By running the differential at the end of the trans housing and installing a belt system we can mount the engine anywhere we want to achieve the best balance and move the axle stubs to the optimum location. Also the gearing is a snap to change.
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Old Dec 21, 2008 | 05:08 PM
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Why not use a bolt on hub bearing for the pullies. They should be able to handle the pressure with no problem. You could use a fwd hub bearing and then you will have a splined axle output too.

If it is a bolt on hub bearing you could fabricate a bracket with slotted holes in it. With a jack bolt in the side of it you could tighten the belt easily. It wont have to be that tight being a cog belt though.

This belt idea could all be fabricated pretty easily, just finding or having cog pullies made will be the hardest and most expensive part.
Old Dec 21, 2008 | 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 99345hp
Why not use a bolt on hub bearing for the pullies. They should be able to handle the pressure with no problem. You could use a fwd hub bearing and then you will have a splined axle output too.

If it is a bolt on hub bearing you could fabricate a bracket with slotted holes in it. With a jack bolt in the side of it you could tighten the belt easily. It wont have to be that tight being a cog belt though.

This belt idea could all be fabricated pretty easily, just finding or having cog pullies made will be the hardest and most expensive part.
Ah, that's right. Just like the hub bearings on the front of the f-body or vette. Why didn't I snap to that? My mind went blank. Yeah, those would be perfect. The rear C5 hubs are splined and can be used front or rear since the spindles are the same front and rear.

I find it kind of funny you guys accept the belt drive setup and I'm not too sure about it. Usually it's the other way around.

So how do you think the rear diff is put togather to fit those pulleys? Did they just shorten a solid axle housing to the extreme and run super short axles? That right there can be pretty pricey. Maybe I can bolt a splined hub to the 8.8 IRS diff and connect the power using a short axle with splines on each end?

Why do you think the cogs have to be special built? Why not use existing ones and drill the 5 hole pattern in the end? As long as it's centered, that should work. Or do you think existing ones woun't be strong enough?

On a side note I got some price qoutes for a Porsche G50 transaxle.

G50 short tail transaxle (G50/03) $6250
Inversion fee $285
Taller 4th gear to 0.96 $795
Taller 5th gear to 0.65 $795
New Limited Slip Differential $1495
Crate and Freight (est.) $300

That's just rediculous when compared to the T56. It seems a lot of kitcar builders are in the same boat I am concerning transaxles. Their the ones buying up all the Audi units as well. Those bastards.
Old Dec 21, 2008 | 07:35 PM
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Here's a nice little thing about why aftermarket transaxles cost so dang much. We're talking $15,000-$25,000 for a gearbox.

Let's talk some about an affordable transaxle. I understand price of materials. I understand expense of R&D. I understand value-added services, ie, engineering, consulting, etc. I understand making a profit. But can you please explain to me how a sports-car gearbox costs MORE than many VEHICLES? There isn't enough steel or aluminum or electronic circuits controlling them to make them that expensive. There isn't enough MACHINING time in the components to make them that expensive. I have ordered and replaced many transmissions for 18-wheelers...in fact, for what one GearFox unit costs, I could have a Caterpillar 6-cylinder diesel engine overhauled with all new wear parts almost TWICE. That's including parts & labor. And factory labor at Caterpillar Machinery is $95 per hour.

So, why is it so expensive to purchase a good unit? You've already done the hard part...the engineering and spec'ing of materials. You've got the drawings done. You either have the machinery or the partners to machine your components. Justify to me the EXPENSE of a single gearbox. One gearbox that you have so lovingly and expertly created, costs more to purchase than my daily driver (!) cost to purchase. We're not talking F1 trickery here. We're not talking aerospace or even space-shuttle components. We're talking about: a) CASE b) shafts c) gears d)forks e)synchros or engagement dogs f)bearings g)shift rods h)ring & pinion. That's it folks, that's all that's in a transaxle. Why can I buy a bulletproof six speed manual transmission and bulletproof rear axle for my drag Mustang for 1/3 the price that a GearFox transaxle sells for? My Tranzilla T56 cost LESS than a junkyard Getrag transaxle (Porsche). It takes 1200 ft.lbs. of torque on a drag launch! 9310 steel gears and shafts. My 9 inch housing runs 9310 ring and pinion. 9310 steel is a premium aerospace steel used to make the gears and shafts for helicopter turbine gearboxes. It's shockproof, it's strong, it has tensile strength out the yang, it costs 1.5-3X as much as 4340....and still, with a stock case full of these components, it costs $6000 ready to run. I'm positively baffled why it costs so damn much to manufacture and sell a transaxle. It seems to me that everyone in the transaxle supply chain wants to make their maximum bucks up front and to hell with the end consumer.

So, please Wanni, explain to myself and everyone listening, why all the transaxle manufacturers want to bend us over, remove our wallets, and our pride along with it, when all WE want to do is complete what should be a simple business transaction. Seems to me, everyone should be happy if we could all just do what needs to be done!

Wanni Albertini (below) is the CEO of GearFox Transmission Concepts .
Very easy to calculate, my friend.
We start from a white sheet and we design the whole transmission after having made the research for purchasing some components.
This costs about $500,000 Euro
We make some tooling for casting and machining and this costs about $300,000 €
We prepare the plants for assembling and this costs about $200,000 €
We produce 10 prototypes for testing and this costs about $300,000 €
We do some tests and for that we shall buy a test rig for not stressed tests, this costs about $200,000 €. For the tests under load we do rent some facilities and this will cost about $300,000 €. We shall make some functional tests in the car and this will cost about $300,000 € for track renting, driver and engineers salary, gas, tires, and…and…and…
We have reached an investment of about 2 million Euros.
In order to sell some units the price shall be affordable. For that we decide to have a break point after 400 units which adds $5,000 € per unit. Unfortunately on the first 100 units there is no profit due to the high percentage of warranty claims. This moves the break point to 500 units sold. But when the break point is reached, the product is lod and needs some more investments, but let us to not considere this stage and let us stop our evaluation on the 500 units.
Another parameter which shall be well known is that due to the torque capability, and due to the price, this product fits only in cars sold for more then $500,000 €uros. How many people worldwide any year can afford such a purchase??? Probably 1,500. More then 1,000 will buy big branded cars like Ferrari, Lamborghini etc….who are using their own transmissions. only 250 or 300 are left for buying the product of our clients. The sector of business is extremely dangerous because plenty of our clients are bankrupt quiet easly and none of them can secure an order covering 2 years of production. This means that my production lots will be too small for becoming inexpensive. Of course why shall I take the risk to pay for lots of 500 just for the pleasure to fill my store.
Now the final calculation. In this way:
The industrial cost of 1 unit is about $8,500 €
The company running costs are about $2,000 € per unit
The return of investment is $5,000 €uros
And I stop my list here.
This means that until I'v sold transmission #500, I am wasting money.
It is now 5 years that I am doing the business and I have reached more or less 300 units. Actually we do sell about 110-130 units a year and this means that I have still to produce for 18 months before I make profit.
From that start to make some money, if the product does not become obsolete before.
If you think that some adventurers are starting to be concurrent, I let you imagine the conclusions of this story.
Regards
Wanni
At the beginning, nothing, ******* works as you have planed.
You shall throw away a lot of expensive parts and replace them with other more expensive.
The testing made by a reality like mine, is insufficient to garranty to match all the conditions. For example, who was thinking that for air shipping a gasket problem would occur??? - 52°C in the luggage room of a plane were not considered. And this is a stupid cause of troubles.
On the bench only safety tests has been made on a "RODEO" test rig simulating dynamicly accelerations, decelerations and cornerings. The transmission was full of plexiglass windows, in order to see internally what happens and a stroboscopic lamp was used to stop in movement all the gears one by one. After being sure of having a correct lubrication in any conditions we wend in a vehicle.
All the testing made, was concentrated on safety, confort and functionality purposes, made by a top and very expensive professional test driver.
- I rented a Pagani Zonda where I installed the proto unit -
1) Functional shifting tests with measurments. It toke 4 months to reach a good level of shifting quality.
2) Endurance test start. We assumed that 30.000 kms hardly made by a professional test driver were sufficient to feel confortable in starting a preserie production.
3) 30.000 kms made in this way: 5% in the city traffic – 25% on mountain roads – 30% on extra urban roads – 20% on the motorway and the final 20% on the Nardò test track at high speed –
After some cooling accessories adjustments, we could start to push hardly on the gas pedal.
An AMG V12 7,1 L a bit tuned was used – 580 HP and 750 Nm – Michelin Pilot Sport 335/35- 18 were in charge to transfer the torque through a 1,1 as adherence coefficient.
You can not imagine the amount of petrol and rear tires has been used, as well as 2 clutches.
This was made all in August 2000.
4) At the end of the endurance test, we decide to do a misuse test as well, while we had 3 more days paid for the track facilities. We installed a set of slick tires and we did all the worse actions against a gearbox on the dynamic track. About 1.000 Km more of tortures.

What do you think??? I was sure about a full success………..

The first 2 lots of pre-serie have been a bath of blood. Nobody was considering the change of production process, from accurate prototyping to standard production.
75% of cases leaking, 90% of final drives singing like Pavarotti, 90% of shifting quality problems, and so on without mentioning the wrong set up of the LSD. At the beginning we were using a ZF LSD with clutches. Too aggressive and dangerous. The car was oversteering in parking. Move to a TORQUE BIASING unit….successful, but throw away 50 crown wheels.
Overheating problems due to the different applications……rear cover re-design in order to allow an oil circulation through a cooler….successful………but the winter arrived.
Impossibility to shift while the lubricant is cold due to an extremely high pressure generated by the pump….add an over-pressure cutter…..successful….but throw away 50 rear covers.
Summer again and some clients are burning everything…..for not using the correct size of piping, they were generating a too high back pressure and the over-pressure valve was always open. The oil was never reaching the end of the shafts…….drill an internal by pass in order to avoid high back pressures…successful.
And so on….I have mentioned only some of the things that they MUST occur according to the LAW OF MURPHY….because believe me, he is always sitting next to you.

I hope this will clarify more your curiosities.
Regards
Wanni
I love of when a manufacturer can talk so openly about one of their products. It's very rare. It certainly opened my eyes as well.

Last edited by JasonWW; Dec 22, 2008 at 05:52 AM.
Old Dec 22, 2008 | 06:01 AM
  #245  
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On the belt drive setup I don't know how many of you caught it, but that rear end is held into place just like a 4 link. It holds it solid, but you can adjust the rods to tighten and loosen the belts. Very ingenious. They do double duty.
Old Dec 22, 2008 | 08:05 PM
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thats a good way to adjust the belts. I didn't think of that. Yeah I dont see why a splined output shaft wouldn't work coming out of the 8.8. The whole thing is going to take some engineering and some parts being made. The problem with that is you are going to have to support the pulley with something if you run the 8.8. With a solid axle it will already be supported with the axle tubes.

Why not shorten the rearend yourself? If you think you have the skills to build a frame from scratch, then you should be able to shorten a rearend. Then all you will need are axles. I dont know what is available for cog pullies either, but you may be able to find some that have at least a 5" center.
Old Dec 23, 2008 | 02:19 AM
  #247  
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Jason have you seen the GTM supercar? it uses an LSX base motor with a porsche G50/G96 transaxle. and you can get a used one in good condition for about $1000+
Old Dec 23, 2008 | 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Taken4granted
Jason have you seen the GTM supercar? it uses an LSX base motor with a porsche G50/G96 transaxle. and you can get a used one in good condition for about $1000+
that would be great, but I hear used ones run much more than that, plus an LSD would cost another $1500 on top of that. PM me where you saw one so cheaply.

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Old Dec 23, 2008 | 05:17 AM
  #249  
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On the belt drive setup, I finally found those belts. They are Gates Poly Chain GT2 and the 5", 125mm., ones run about $900 each!

That's not what I wanted to hear, especially since they will need replacing when they start to wear out. Crap.

Let me look more into that G50. I can always add the LSD at a later time. I just need some type of decent transmission/transaxle setup. This is really bugging the hell out of me.

Last edited by JasonWW; Dec 23, 2008 at 05:24 AM.
Old Dec 23, 2008 | 08:13 PM
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yeah, that is still going to be expensive. Those belts are massive. I didn't even think about the cost of those. This thread is getting so long I dont know what else to recommend trying. Coupling the t-56 directly to the 8.8 irs? Its starting to look like you are going to have to dish out around 2000 at the least just in your driveline setup.

I dont know where too look for used g50 transaxles, but then you have to pay extra for the flipping. The car will run backwards in the forward gears without it. Then you will also have the adapter, clutch and all that other misc. bs that will eat up a budget.

At work we are building a GTM supercar. It is using the best g50 with the lsd and the flip kit. It is also using a mastershift paddle shift system. No manual shifter at all.
Old Dec 23, 2008 | 09:11 PM
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Yeah, its depressing, huh?

This is the bane of every mid-engine kitcar builder as well. A lot of them limit their power to about 250-300 just so they can use an Audi box. The power I want puts me in a difficult situation.

The best I can come up with at the moment is using a regular trans with the vette diff. When I compared the length using a regular diff, you save a good 10" or so. It still makes for a long wheelbase, though.

Last edited by JasonWW; Dec 23, 2008 at 09:18 PM.
Old Dec 24, 2008 | 03:15 PM
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could you photoshop the engine combo you are talking about in relationship to the original wheelbase? I just want to see how much extra is needed.
Old Dec 25, 2008 | 09:32 AM
  #253  
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i tried sourcing similar belts for an arneson drive instalation in a 18 foot boat... and it just added up too scary fast, the pullies are mucho dinerro too...

in my oppinion you should settle on a HP level... and build your components to match, i mean the goal was to make a mid engine f.body with bodymods... not to "out-veyron" a bugatti... a flipped porsche tranny will do fine, as will a stock G8 if you decice on a transverse mount engine.... you dont need a paddleshifted x.trac or built g50.. start with a stocker and get to building the car... it is a 3 hour job to install a beefed tranny once you blow the one you have in there... or have it sent out and modified if your money tree is still standing once you are at the test drive stage....

the g50 works, and works great, saw one on ebay for 4k, and of you settle for a 4 speed porsche it will much much cheaper...

my question is, couldnt you sell the engine and tranny you have and buy a g8 driveline for less money???
Old Dec 25, 2008 | 09:23 PM
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I have always had a power range of about 450 in mind.

The goal was never to make a midengine car, it was to make a very low car.

What are you thinking with the G8? That's not a transverse mount. Please explain.
Old Dec 26, 2008 | 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JasonWW
What are you thinking with the G8? That's not a transverse mount. Please explain.
sorry I must have alittle drunk from breakfast when i posted that... what i meant to say was Imp/MCSS but the 2 door sedan theme must have confused me LOL

and if you want a super low car, uou could do a simple full frame that tucks just inside the rockers. (the rockers could be cut so they only extended an inch below the door...) then set the frame so you have 3-4 inches of rideheight with engine, crossmember, exhaust and so on tucked up under... and mount your body to the frame and fab floorpans to clear everything... you would propably have to moove the wheel arches up atleast in the front to be able to turn the wheels :-) but it should get you low enough.....

im not sure you could close the hood when teh body gets so low on the "frame" but thats what taller hoods are for right?

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Old Dec 26, 2008 | 09:28 AM
  #256  
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As I've already explained, the MCSS uses a weak little 4T65E-HD 4 speed automatic. Even the stock LS4 engine at 300hp would break it once you add 295 tires and move it to the back. When you do those 2 things it greatly increases the torque the transmission sees. Then when you add the extra power I plan to from the LS1, it would break it really fast and often. You have to have it rebuilt to handle that torque which runs about 4k.

They are fine in a front wheel drive application because it will break the tires loose before the trans will break. That's what keeps them alive.

Last edited by JasonWW; Dec 26, 2008 at 09:44 AM.
Old Dec 26, 2008 | 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by deuce_454
and if you want a super low car, uou could do a simple full frame that tucks just inside the rockers. (the rockers could be cut so they only extended an inch below the door...) then set the frame so you have 3-4 inches of rideheight with engine, crossmember, exhaust and so on tucked up under... and mount your body to the frame and fab floorpans to clear everything... you would propably have to moove the wheel arches up atleast in the front to be able to turn the wheels :-) but it should get you low enough.....

im not sure you could close the hood when teh body gets so low on the "frame" but thats what taller hoods are for right?
That pretty much is my plan, but as I explained before, I'd need to raise the engine and trans 2". The hood will clear, bit you'd lose the middle windshield wiper and you may have to move the AC/Heater unit from under the dash to the back of the car. Both of those suck, plus going mid-engine is just cooler.

I'm going to keep studing the car and see if I can come up with some good solutions.

Last edited by JasonWW; Dec 26, 2008 at 09:42 AM.
Old Dec 26, 2008 | 01:28 PM
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i stand corrected on teh FWD tranny, somhow i thought they were as strong as the 4l65 rwd unit... the fireo guys use honda NSX trannys for high HP apps, no idea what they cost though
Old Dec 26, 2008 | 10:45 PM
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I've heard the NSX trans we're really expensive, so I never looked into them.
Let me do some researching.
Old Dec 28, 2008 | 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 99345hp
could you photoshop the engine combo you are talking about in relationship to the original wheelbase? I just want to see how much extra is needed.
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