Rocket Fuel questions, anyone a chemist??
Rocket Fuel questions, anyone a chemist?? I've been reading about the late 80s formula one cars and how they made 1500hp out of a 90cid motor. I know as the air becomes more dense it becomes harder to ignite and slower to burn.
I read that those cars were fueled with Toluene, the third component in TNT. And it allowed them to run at 75+ pounds of boost because of how fast the mixture burned as compared to octane. My question is, i recently discovered that I can get toluene from my work!!!! Is this a viable option to suppliment fuel system so i can run more boost and less spark advance?
Just thought i'd throw that out there.
I read that those cars were fueled with Toluene, the third component in TNT. And it allowed them to run at 75+ pounds of boost because of how fast the mixture burned as compared to octane. My question is, i recently discovered that I can get toluene from my work!!!! Is this a viable option to suppliment fuel system so i can run more boost and less spark advance?
Just thought i'd throw that out there.
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Toluene isn't the third ingredient in TNT, although it is the last part of the chemical name, Trinitrotoluene. Toluene and TNT are each a single compound, Toluene being C7H8 (pretend it's subscript), and TNT being the same but having three extra ground of NO2 attatched, C7H5N3O6. I don't know the specific details of why a nitrided chemical like TNT burns so much more quickly, but I do know it has to do with it being nitrided.
I believe Toluene has been used before to increase octane rating, but I'm not sure on the specifics.
I believe Toluene has been used before to increase octane rating, but I'm not sure on the specifics.
Teching In
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Nitro is the key Chemist here,
In any burning you need fuel and oxidant, we use gas and air, just add spark.
TNT neatly gets around this because the 3 nitro groups contain lots of oxygen. That means that the one chemical is both fuel and oxidant. It also means that it will explode, rather than burn and once it starts don't try to stop it, just run if you still can. Top fuel dragsters use the closely related nitro methane for exactly the same reason. An interesting point is that if the fuel carries its own oxygen it is almost impossible to run too rich, more brew just makes more power.
Toluene has been used in fuel for years. In Australia I think it was Mobil that sold its fuel with added Methyl Benzene (Toluene) all through the 1960's (yes I am that old). Toluene has an octane rating well over 100 (Australian rating, our best pump fuel is 98).
In the late 1990's a few independant fuel retailers were adding toluene to the 92 octane, making it cheaper an increasing the octane rating. The government came down on them hard because they were missing out on around $2.40 per gallon in "road tax", the newspapers were full of 'harms your car' headlines.
As for the formula1 cars they had two main problems, they were limited to a maximum amount of fuel an the turbo boost required huge octane equivalent. The mixture they used contained lots of cyclic hydrocarbons and was probably more like Diesel than gas. Refueling was not allowed during the race and was done by someone wearing a full hazmat suit.
The moral, toluene good, rocket fuel bad.
Cheers Steve
In any burning you need fuel and oxidant, we use gas and air, just add spark.
TNT neatly gets around this because the 3 nitro groups contain lots of oxygen. That means that the one chemical is both fuel and oxidant. It also means that it will explode, rather than burn and once it starts don't try to stop it, just run if you still can. Top fuel dragsters use the closely related nitro methane for exactly the same reason. An interesting point is that if the fuel carries its own oxygen it is almost impossible to run too rich, more brew just makes more power.
Toluene has been used in fuel for years. In Australia I think it was Mobil that sold its fuel with added Methyl Benzene (Toluene) all through the 1960's (yes I am that old). Toluene has an octane rating well over 100 (Australian rating, our best pump fuel is 98).
In the late 1990's a few independant fuel retailers were adding toluene to the 92 octane, making it cheaper an increasing the octane rating. The government came down on them hard because they were missing out on around $2.40 per gallon in "road tax", the newspapers were full of 'harms your car' headlines.
As for the formula1 cars they had two main problems, they were limited to a maximum amount of fuel an the turbo boost required huge octane equivalent. The mixture they used contained lots of cyclic hydrocarbons and was probably more like Diesel than gas. Refueling was not allowed during the race and was done by someone wearing a full hazmat suit.
The moral, toluene good, rocket fuel bad.
Cheers Steve
I am not a Chemist. However, we have been mixing Toluene & gas for forever @ the track. Have seen the "Rocket Fuel" term used to describe its' use on internet sites. As stated above, it's not Rocket fuel, but does increase octane. Do not over mix. Someone will probably post the octane (Toluene/gas) per octane increase ratio. BTW, Toluene can be purchased @ paint stores, as well.
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Exactly.
Toluene does not contain an oxidizer. True rocket fuel has the oxidizer mixed into it. Nitromethane for example, has the oxygen in the compound (CH3NO2). Gasoline does not (C8H18). It is the oxygen that results in the much more rapid combustion. This is why nitrous oxide (N20) produces such a greater amount of power. It acts as an oxidizer for the fuel.
As for why nitrided compounds produce such violent power. It has nothing to actually do with the nitrogen itself. The nitrogen is simply a bond for the oxygen. It is the oxygen that produces the "bang for the buck".
Toluene does not contain an oxidizer. True rocket fuel has the oxidizer mixed into it. Nitromethane for example, has the oxygen in the compound (CH3NO2). Gasoline does not (C8H18). It is the oxygen that results in the much more rapid combustion. This is why nitrous oxide (N20) produces such a greater amount of power. It acts as an oxidizer for the fuel.
As for why nitrided compounds produce such violent power. It has nothing to actually do with the nitrogen itself. The nitrogen is simply a bond for the oxygen. It is the oxygen that produces the "bang for the buck".
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Yes, I'm aware of the constituents needed for combustion.
What I was really getting at, without researching explosives, was whether the Nitrogen as a carrier allows for a faster combustion (almost as a catalyst). I don't know about explosives, so I'm not sure on the feasibility of other bonded oxidizers. What I mean is, do the Nitrided explosives occur out of neccessity of Nitrogen as a carrier for the oxygen instead of another element/compound, ease of production (nitriding), or because the Nitrogen bonds themselves allow for the much more rapid combustion (whether by some catalytic properties or just ease of breaking the bonds)?
What I was really getting at, without researching explosives, was whether the Nitrogen as a carrier allows for a faster combustion (almost as a catalyst). I don't know about explosives, so I'm not sure on the feasibility of other bonded oxidizers. What I mean is, do the Nitrided explosives occur out of neccessity of Nitrogen as a carrier for the oxygen instead of another element/compound, ease of production (nitriding), or because the Nitrogen bonds themselves allow for the much more rapid combustion (whether by some catalytic properties or just ease of breaking the bonds)?
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It all has to do with the valency of nitrogen and oxygen. To simply put it, nitrogen forms super strong bonds. It bonds very well to oxygen and other atoms. It is because of the strong bond that nitrogen forms with other atoms that results in the formation of such violent compounds. When the nitrogen bond is broken, a huge amount of energy is released. When that bond happens to have oxygen in the compound, the result.............is explosive (forgive the pun).
Because molecules form so that the valencies of the atoms are satisfied, nitrogen and oxygen bond easily to each other. Each follow the octet rule that their resulting bond allows each atom to have 8 electrons. Nitrogen has 5 valence electrons, oxygen has 6. It is because of these missing electons in which these two atoms form bonds with other atoms easily. Nitrogen is the key. It tends to form double bonds with other atoms, because of the octet rule.
That's why I said earlier that nitrogen really has nothing to do with anything. Although it's bond is actually the result of the great forces involved with nitriding and nitrating, it is the oxygen that is the oxidizer. Without the oxygen, we see no result from the energy of the broken bond. The nitrogen simply magnifies the "power" of the oxygen.
Think of nitrogen as simply the "glue" that holds the molecule together.
Because molecules form so that the valencies of the atoms are satisfied, nitrogen and oxygen bond easily to each other. Each follow the octet rule that their resulting bond allows each atom to have 8 electrons. Nitrogen has 5 valence electrons, oxygen has 6. It is because of these missing electons in which these two atoms form bonds with other atoms easily. Nitrogen is the key. It tends to form double bonds with other atoms, because of the octet rule.
That's why I said earlier that nitrogen really has nothing to do with anything. Although it's bond is actually the result of the great forces involved with nitriding and nitrating, it is the oxygen that is the oxidizer. Without the oxygen, we see no result from the energy of the broken bond. The nitrogen simply magnifies the "power" of the oxygen.
Think of nitrogen as simply the "glue" that holds the molecule together.
Last edited by Dan Stewart; Nov 29, 2008 at 05:21 PM.
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Nitrogen is just the "middleman", keeps you apart until the
bill is paid and then lets you have at it.
There are other "middlemen" (chlorine for chlorate / perchlorate,
manganese for permanganate, etc.) bus as middlemen go,
nitrogen is the most benign afterward. Not like you'd enjoy a
bunch of chlorine out the exhaust or in the cylinder. Though
your NOx is not too tasty either, at least a decent tune will
minimize that and give you mostly plain N2 out the back with
your water and carbon dioxide.
bill is paid and then lets you have at it.
There are other "middlemen" (chlorine for chlorate / perchlorate,
manganese for permanganate, etc.) bus as middlemen go,
nitrogen is the most benign afterward. Not like you'd enjoy a
bunch of chlorine out the exhaust or in the cylinder. Though
your NOx is not too tasty either, at least a decent tune will
minimize that and give you mostly plain N2 out the back with
your water and carbon dioxide.
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Try some of this stuff..... People have been racing with it for years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_oxide Just dont get it on you or breathe it....
Teching In
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From: Ill
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium:
10%...94.2 Octane
20%...96.4 Octane
30%...98.6 Octane
This is a Common ingredient in Octane Boosters that are in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, I.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.
10%...94.2 Octane
20%...96.4 Octane
30%...98.6 Octane
This is a Common ingredient in Octane Boosters that are in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, I.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.
