Advanced Engineering Tech For the more hardcore LS1TECH residents

Aluminum Cylinder Walls?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old May 22, 2009 | 08:55 PM
  #21  
elias_799's Avatar
TECH Addict
iTrader: (8)
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,047
Likes: 2
From: toronto ontario canada
Default

^^^ i don't think so man, they have to have some sort of liner or coating. otherwise those cylinder bore's will wear pretty quick.
Reply
Old May 26, 2009 | 12:31 AM
  #22  
Steve - Race Eng's Avatar
LS1TECH Sponsor
20 Year Member
Top Answer: 1
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 739
Likes: 177
From: Oceanside, Ca.
Default Aluminum cylinder walls

The H22 Honda and the 2ZZ Toyota four bangers, Subaru EJ257 race blocks among others, use a MMC or metal matrix composite cylinder wall coatings. It is pretty tough stuff and eats my inserts when I sleeve these blocks. The pistons have a coating to make them compatible with the cylinder walls. Any after market race piston can be used after I sleeve these blocks, plus the ductile iron sleeves are stronger.

The Vega and the 430 Can Am blocks were cast in Reynolds 390 aluminum alloy. Mercedes uses or used the same alloy in some of their production blocks. This alloy has a high silicon content. Bores are lapped after honing to leave the hard silicon particles on the surface. Pistons were iron coated in these engines to prevent scuffing. I used to sleeve a lot of Vega blocks back then because many scuffed cylinder walls due to variations in the silicon content of the mass produced blocks.

Steve



Originally Posted by elias_799
^^^ i don't think so man, they have to have some sort of liner or coating. otherwise those cylinder bore's will wear pretty quick.
__________________
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
Reply
Old May 28, 2009 | 10:36 PM
  #23  
Brief Encounter's Avatar
On The Tree
iTrader: (6)
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
From: Northwest Indiana (Highland)
Default

Im glad someone finally bought up the Reynolds 390 blocks. Those things were incredible, especially the 494 Big Block.

BTW, Ferrari has been on Nikasil liners since the days of the 308. So what does that tell you.
Reply
Old May 28, 2009 | 10:47 PM
  #24  
Steve - Race Eng's Avatar
LS1TECH Sponsor
20 Year Member
Top Answer: 1
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 739
Likes: 177
From: Oceanside, Ca.
Default Ferrari

Actually it is the 328 and later Ferrari engines that have aluminum wet liners. The 308 used ductile iron wet liners. I have a large bore ductile iron wet liner kit for the 308 328 Ferrari engines.

The aluminum liners save weight but they won't stay round nor hold the power that a ductile iron liner will.

Steve


Originally Posted by Brief Encounter
Im glad someone finally bought up the Reynolds 390 blocks. Those things were incredible, especially the 494 Big Block.

BTW, Ferrari has been on Nikasil liners since the days of the 308. So what does that tell you.
__________________
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
Reply
Old May 30, 2009 | 03:29 AM
  #25  
JCR's Avatar
JCR
Teching In
 
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: H-Town, Tejas
Default

Originally Posted by Steve - Race Eng
The Vega and the 430 Can Am blocks were cast in Reynolds 390 aluminum alloy. Mercedes uses or used the same alloy in some of their production blocks. This alloy has a high silicon content. Bores are lapped after honing to leave the hdumdumdum silicon particles on the surface. Pistons were iron coated in these engines to prevent scuffing. I used to sleeve a lot of Vega blocks back then because many scuffed cylinder walls due to variations in the silicon content of the mass produced blocks.
Steve
The American name for the process was Reynolds 390 as Steve describes. It is also known in Europe (Germany) as Alusil. Most manufacturers in Europe that use aluminum blocks have gone from Nikasil (coating) to Alusil since it is cheaper. This link has a good description of the processes. http://www.lnengineering.com/whynickies.html
Reply
Old May 30, 2009 | 10:44 AM
  #26  
Krom's Avatar
TECH Apprentice
 
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 328
Likes: 3
Default

B&S engines use a non plated aluminum bore...

Plated cylinders are real common in power sports, and street bikes, there are a couple turbo snowmobiles that make 530 hp from 2 cylinder 1200 cc engines (thats 7.2 hp per cubic inch) The plating is bullet proof, much harder than rings pistons, or any thing else that rides in there. The only time wear or damage becomes an issue is if something else goes wrong and parts bounce around in a running engine.

http://www.mt-llc.com/

and

http://www.usnicom.com/

are 2 places that do it in the US, msrp is about $200 per hole to strip / bore/ re-plate/ and hone.. Far cheaper than the 400 to 800 per cylinder to replace with new on a bike or sled...
Attached Thumbnails Aluminum Cylinder Walls?-chart.jpg  

Last edited by Krom; May 30, 2009 at 10:52 AM. Reason: add dyno chart of 530+ hp 73 CI engine
Reply
Old Jun 15, 2009 | 12:01 AM
  #27  
elias_799's Avatar
TECH Addict
iTrader: (8)
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,047
Likes: 2
From: toronto ontario canada
Default

Originally Posted by Steve - Race Eng
Actually it is the 328 and later Ferrari engines that have aluminum wet liners. The 308 used ductile iron wet liners. I have a large bore ductile iron wet liner kit for the 308 328 Ferrari engines.

The aluminum liners save weight but they won't stay round nor hold the power that a ductile iron liner will.

Steve
wet liner ? i think you mean wet sleeve. liner is just a very thin coating, and i do not see how you can run coolant around it without braking the bore.
Reply
Old Jun 15, 2009 | 12:19 PM
  #28  
Tom@SpeedInc's Avatar
Banned
iTrader: (5)
 
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,890
Likes: 0
From: Chicago
Default

Dunno if it was mentioned, C6R block is aluminum with no sleeves (saves weight/ affects handling), this engine isn't designed for longevity just to run a race.

Jaguar did have a production aluminum block, no sleeves, I don't think most made it to 100k miles
Reply
LS1 Tech Stories

The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time

story-0

Topdon ONE vs. Artidiag 800 BT2: Which is the Diagnostic Tablet For You?

 Pouria Savadkouei
story-1

Gas Monkey Built a 6-Wheel Ferrari Testarossa With a Corvette LT4 Engine

 Verdad Gallardo
story-2

7 Most Reliable High-Performance Engines GM Has Ever Built

 Verdad Gallardo
story-3

Amazing '71 Camaro Restomod Is Modern Muscle Car Under the Skin

 Verdad Gallardo
story-4

6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them

 Pouria Savadkouei
story-5

Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph

 Verdad Gallardo
story-6

Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked

 Pouria Savadkouei
story-7

Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!

 
story-8

Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP

 Verdad Gallardo
story-9

Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes

 Verdad Gallardo
Old Jun 15, 2009 | 08:18 PM
  #29  
WKMCD's Avatar
TECH Junkie
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,416
Likes: 2
From: Northern VA
Default

The Yamaha GP bikes (TZ's) had a chomium alloy cylinder coating and ran iron rings. Some tried recoating them with Nikasil with mixed success at the time.
Reply
Old Jul 24, 2009 | 03:31 PM
  #30  
89StripeGT's Avatar
Teching In
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Default

Most of the Prototype cars in the ALMS and euro Le Mans series use all aluminium bores. They use a Nickel Silicon Carbide type coating (Nikasil?) on them which has a harder surface than iron does, which means less friction, and no heat expansion issues that are associated with iron liners. Even NASCAR engines, which are iron bore/iron block use Nickel coatings because of less friction on the rings and longer bore life.
Reply
Old Jul 30, 2009 | 02:37 AM
  #31  
Wnts2Go10O's Avatar
TECH Veteran
iTrader: (12)
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,354
Likes: 0
From: Rockville, MD
Default

Originally Posted by Fraser@SpeedInc
Dunno if it was mentioned, C6R block is aluminum with no sleeves (saves weight/ affects handling), this engine isn't designed for longevity just to run a race.

Jaguar did have a production aluminum block, no sleeves, I don't think most made it to 100k miles
running 24 hours of high rpm is pretty damn good longevity.

the original GM aluminum engines had of problems because at first they didnt modify the water jackets to compensate for the different material.
Reply
Old Aug 13, 2009 | 08:20 PM
  #32  
camaropilot's Avatar
Staging Lane
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 69
Likes: 1
From: Concord/Clayton, CA
Default

I should be ovious that he has an iron block do does he think he has a iron block w/ aluminum walls
Reply
Old Aug 23, 2009 | 11:24 PM
  #33  
elias_799's Avatar
TECH Addict
iTrader: (8)
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,047
Likes: 2
From: toronto ontario canada
Default

^^^^^^ ?
Reply
Old Aug 24, 2009 | 12:31 AM
  #34  
PlatnumStatuz's Avatar
10 Second Club
iTrader: (6)
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
From: north bay CA
Default

porsche 968
Reply
Old Aug 26, 2009 | 05:58 PM
  #35  
melsie68's Avatar
9 Second Club
iTrader: (8)
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Default

I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS THREAD IS STILL RUNNING
Reply




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:02 PM.

story-0
Topdon ONE vs. Artidiag 800 BT2: Which is the Diagnostic Tablet For You?

Slideshow: We take a close look at the ONE and Artidiag 800BT2 diagnostic tools from Topdon and the reasons to buy one over the other.

By Pouria Savadkouei | 2026-05-28 11:05:11


VIEW MORE
story-1
Gas Monkey Built a 6-Wheel Ferrari Testarossa With a Corvette LT4 Engine

Slideshow: The controversial Ferrari F6 swaps its original flat-12 for a Corvette Z06-derived LT4 V8 and sends power to four rear wheels through a custom-built drivetrain.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-26 18:23:54


VIEW MORE
story-2
7 Most Reliable High-Performance Engines GM Has Ever Built

Slideshow:These GM engines didn't just make huge power, they survived abuse, boost, track days, and six-digit mileage with a reputation for refusing to quit.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-21 16:45:27


VIEW MORE
story-3
Amazing '71 Camaro Restomod Is Modern Muscle Car Under the Skin

Slideshow: This heavily modified 1971 Camaro mixes classic muscle car styling with a fifth-generation Camaro interior and modern LS3 power.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-12 18:06:42


VIEW MORE
story-4
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them

Slideshow: From wobbling harmonic balancers to failed EBCMs, these are the issues that define long-term C5 ownership and what repairs typically involve.

By Pouria Savadkouei | 2026-05-07 18:44:57


VIEW MORE
story-5
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph

Slideshow: A modern Camaro transformed into a retro icon, this limited-run "Bandit" build blends nostalgia with brute force in a way few revivals manage.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-21 13:57:02


VIEW MORE
story-6
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked

Slideshow: Cadillac didn't just crash the high-performance luxury vehicle party, it showed up loud, supercharged, and occasionally a little unhinged...

By Pouria Savadkouei | 2026-04-16 10:05:15


VIEW MORE
story-7
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!

Slideshow: Top ten most powerful Chevy trucks ever made

By | 2026-03-25 09:22:26


VIEW MORE
story-8
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP

Slideshow: Hennessey has turned the Silverado ZR2 into a 700-hp off-road monster with supercharged V8 power and a limited production run.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-03-24 18:57:52


VIEW MORE
story-9
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes

Slideshow: A one-off sports car that looks like a vintage Italian exotic-but hides a C6 Corvette underneath-just sold for the price of a new mid-engine Corvette.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-03-23 18:53:41


VIEW MORE