It'llrun

This isn't about Ford or Chevy though... It's about GM going more toward what basically every other major manufacturer has done for over a decade now, some more than two, as their main design style. I think GM has more OHC engines out there than many of us realize. They simply don't push the advertisement on any level. I can't even begin to remember all the GM OHC engines over the years.

One big reason the stick with OHV in their performance cars, aside from cost, is the size of the overall package. Looking at the OHC's in the Cadillac, it's easy to see that GM could do some special things with them at any point. I still think the government will ultimately shut down their OHV engines at some point, due to this perceived problem of man made global warming. At that point, they'll surely bring out some really serious OHC's in performance cars, including Corvette.

shanemilleresp

lol dude do you know anything about those north stars?
well i do im a tech at a gm dealer
those motors are junk
every one of them leaks oil and they are built stupid i hate working on those things

justin455

Partially correct. There are a lot of design differences between a FWD and RWD application on the Northstar. The FWD ones are the ones that give the engine a bad wrap. In RWD form they are quite reliable.

Bobsmyuncle

iTrader: (32)

yea, i have seen many over 250k, ive always considered them a reliable, long lasting motor. sure they r a pain to work on, but what fwd car isnt, lol

Canbarelygo

also id would say there has to be tolerances that are very different. i mean look at factory compression of the DOHC 4.6l in relation to the ls1.

also in the cam department we will use the ms4 as a prime example. there obviously has to be something to untouched ls heads because that is a pretty excessive camshaft in the first place and pretty much untouched ls1s seem to love them where as if you would over cam a mod motor LONG before you got in the ballpark of the specs of the cam and what kind of power are ls1s making with just that cam? also what is the average power one of fords mod motors are making cam only N/A?

and i agree with the blower arguement for the fact of you really cant make an N/A (or at least i havent seen one yet) DOHC 4.6l with street manners the power numbers just arent there for them and when they do start makin power they get so high strung and un mannered that you cant live with them

and then again with the efficiency arguement i race quite frequently (and by frequently i mean nightly or every other night and every weekend lol) and i usually stay right at around the 20mpg area still. and forget about what the window sticker says how much mpg area you guys actually getting out of your mustangs?

1CAMWNDR

iTrader: (21)

FYI, that Coates spherical valve is not new and has never taken off because of sealing problems. It is a neat idea, but after a period of time it leaks.

massconfusion

iTrader: (18)

No they dont. Ford motors blow dick with out air being shoved down their throats. Even if they do it would be with a full race cam and 15-1 compression completely unstreetable and stupid. thats why almost nobody runs them without a blower or nitrous other than a few classes. Anyone recall when 5.4 used to shoot spark plugs out of the head. Anyway why did it take ford 10 years to catch up to chevy with the new 5.0l. which i admit is kinda badass. Would be nice to see some real factory rivalry

Canbarelygo

on another note how much hp does the 5.0 claim? 4 hundred something right? and that through lets say a 5spd with driveline loss probably is in the 350ish maybe a little more to the tires. and if i also remember correctly the new mustangs have a bit of weight to them. people claim that these cars are going to be some serious competition but havent ls1's been makin roughly 350rwhp (give or take a bit more or less) with bolt ons for years?

i think the 5.0 is a good attempt at being competitive on fords part but i think its an instance of the wrong car with the right motor but i really really think they are being played up beyond their abilities. hell people played up the 2010 camaros but when everyone saw that they were fat as hell and werent layin down anything close to impressive track times the hype obviously died down. i saw a damn near stock fbody outrun one last night i mean cmon.

id like to see a bolt on fbody race on heads up and i think that will be a decision maker on whether or not we have anything at all to worry about.

back to the idea of a GM performance mod motor i honestly think if they would do it i think they would move to the northstar platform only because theyve had it around for years and they could build on it easily but i just dont see them giving a mod motor performance platform preference over the ls series because the series has already made its mark as an extremely well set up system and can be made crazy powerful AND reliable enough to live with so i think they will be building on the line for awhile

besides just for the sake of hot rods in general pop the hood on any 500 horse old school hot rod and yank the valve covers and what will you see?

NO CAMS!!!!!

It'llrun

Your name explains your post wonderfully.

1st, it doesn't have a 5spd. 2nd, it's making closer to 380rwhp than 350ish. 3rd, who cares what a car that's been around more than 10yrs is making with bolt ons, when comparing an entirely stock car against it...

A good attempt? Well don't look now, but that full stock GT is more than making an attempt. It's clearly head and shoulders above the tired 4th gen and everyone knows it even if they can't stand to admit it. Most people would probably say it's the right car with the wrong engine, considering how many seem to despise OHC's around here. Besides, the car has already been proven, before it got this engine. The 2010 SS may be "fat" by anyone's account... It still runs the numbers better than the 4th gen and the engine has more potential without opening things up. The hype hasn't died down just yet... look at the sales. Compare those to the 4th gen. It's not very close.

Well, right now would be a great time, considering the absolutely limited bolt on parts available for the brand new 5.0L. In a year, you may not want the same comparison to be made. After all, though it is nearly 1liter smaller, the new 5.0 makes more power than any stock LS1 ever did. And, no I don't care who you ask.

Cadillac already has a performance version of the 4.4 DOHC, the XLR-V. Well, I believe it's a 4.4L. Anyway, it's a Northstar engine making nearly 450hp. Caddy claims 0-60 times of 4.6 seconds.

More of the cylinder heads, along with the parts used to complete them... like any other engine with valve covers I suspect.

Who cares if you see the cams or not? Does it bother you to see a camshaft? If so, just leave those valve covers in place...

Canbarelygo

well as i said it would all come down to the new motors ability to be proven out in the world as well because a large factor of the ls1's success is their ability to respond to modification in large ways to light modifications and i just dont see this new mod motor responding any better to mods than older mustangs did

and honestly i think both the new 5.0 mustang AND the 5th gen camaro are cases of the wrong car with the right engines. tell me (not to have preference to older cars) that the 5.0 in say an 03 mach1 and an ls3 in an fbody wouldnt be a much much better "platform" for both cars. and i wouldnt say that the 5th gen is running the number better than the 4th gens either because idk if youve ever seen them in a race setting it becomes completely apparent that the main focus was put on the retro styling and the performance capabilities were an after thought

and in the bolt on department as i said i realize that the new 5.0 is relatively one liter smaller than its compared powerplants like the ls1 and 3 but that shouldnt be super shocking in the case of the ls1 considering its a platform thats been around for 12 or so years that it should perform better but i just think that the response the new motor will have to bolt ons just wont be quite as powerful as they are for the ls series

and cadillac may have a peformance version of their modular setup but i just dont see GM taking it farther than cadillac. there might be a few exceptions but it will a long day away from now that the ls series is moved out of the way by a GM mod setup if not only for the fact of the sheer reliability and toughness of the ls platform. hell my car has 181k on it and it still screams faster than any mustang around here (with the exception of a turbo fox or 2 lol) i would love to see one of those cars make it that far

give me pushrods or give me death

this is gettin good

It'llrun

At the drag strip, which seems to be the only, if not main concern on this site, the new SS is better than a 4th gen, by ALL indications. Indeed, this isn't even debatable anymore. Pig or not, it IS quicker than the 4th gen was.

While I think it may have been better in a couple aspects, based on liking the 98-02 T/A so much, to use this engine in that body, I will not argue that the current underpinnings aren't better than the last, because I surely feel they are notably better. Chassis to chassis, this is no contest for me. The ONLY concern in that regard is weight... That's it. Everything else favors the new car, handling, acceleration and everything between. Reality is, the 4th gen wasn't that good a car based on design. It looked GREAT, but needed big help in every department other than the engine and transmissiion... Really big help impo. Still, I like the 5th gen, heavy or not.

I'm not bothered by the engines or the cars they're in. The new 5.0L is a fine engine and I don't think I'd rather in it an older Mach1 unless I prefer the Mach1 over the new body. Sure, it performs better as is, and may perform better in the Mach1, on a straight course. Do I think the Mach1 can hang with the current chassis? No... No I don't. Same as the 4th gen vs 5th. I don't see a 4th gen outright besting the 5th on any course "as a rule" and don't think it is the case. I think, if times are compared on common tracks, the 5th gen is likely to win nearly every time, and I think the current Mustang will do the same over the last. Personally, I'm certain of it already.

While I expect the 5.0 "bolt-ons" to be more expensive, I suspect they'll be much the same for the engine as they were on a 4.6L. I think the LS3 "bolt-ons" will be better than the LS1's were because it's bigger and less refined(technology) than the modular, which tends to make it easier to modify for power. That said, we'll have to "hide and watch" to see what the new 5.0 does. It may be that, since the engine has grown, bolt on parts will have a greater effect, as I suspect is or soon will be the case with the LS3. On the other hand, both make more power stock, so it's possibly going to be harder in improve upon once tuning is done. More to come...

It'llrun

GM doesn't care how tough these engines are once they leave the dealership and their warranty has expired... The Northstar engine is reliable enough for them, so figure that out.. The LS series isn't likely to be removed by GM "for" any DOHC... But may be BECAUSE of government intervention. They're already on it, and have been for about 4 decades. They're convinced that OHV engines produce too many emissions and unless they're stopped(by voting in people with working brains), WILL end such performance oriented engines. When that happens, OHC will be the way to go, because they "burn cleaner"... never mind the fuel economy isn't often better, and in many cases is worse... They "burn cleaner"... That is, even burning MORE isn't a problem, so long as it's cleaner as you burn... Forget the fact burning more means more emissions... anyway... At the rate we're going, the GOVERNMENT will be the end of OHV performance regardless what GM chooses...

Reliability isn't a big concern. As good as the LS series is, there are several OHC engines with better track records. Not to "bust out with" Ford, but the 4.6L modular is known to cross 300K and never be opened... Well, I've heard that many times, anyway. My dad had a 99 F-250 and not only did it not have problems(at all) in the engine, he sold it with a bit over 171K and not even a hint of trouble. The guy who bought it still drives it all the time and when last I asked, he'd crossed 200K and had no trouble. Police cruisers get abused and I still hear of them going over 200K... That's reliability in my mind... That's also something helped by lower power... Look at all the 200k+ foreign jobbers with OHC engines... They run and run and run... Like an old Dodge slant 6 or Ford 300... Ya can't hardly kill 'em! The manufacturer doesn't have to care though, what happens beyond warranty... Plus, they KILLED several, indeed all of those old push rod engines even though they were very reliable. The old SBC was quite reliable, even with it's leaks and so forth... But it's gone too. That one was because of the LS series, but others weren't. Ford had no logical reason to kill the 5.8L, but BLAM! GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION!

PS... The 97+LS1 was indeed a great engine from the start, but as for sheer durability, there are several other LS series engines I'd choose over it. Indeed, I'd prefer most other LS series as for durability with aftermarket modification. The quickest GM's aren't likely to have that block under the hood... And there are reasons which have been discussed many times by now. The best engine block durability doesn't often come in aluminum..

Canbarelygo

and the notion of picking a cleaner engine over a more efficient engine is just pointless because we can do things about emission. maybe us performance orientied guys wont be the ones to do it but it can be done. it just makes no sense to use a system that uses MORE fuel thats just counter productive. i think the only way if they were to ever choose to go that direction would be to move to the DOHC platform but scrap the v8 idea because the v6 and 4cyl applications are proven to get excelent mpg but a v8 platform just really hasnt done it yet in a big way.

im aware reliability isnt terrible with the over head cam set up in a more refined state but i have many experiences of my own helpin buddies with random odd problems with their mustangs and also a good buddy of mine and who is also my go to mechanic that works at a local "do everything" shop constantly has random assortments of mustangs and imports in there with anything from head gaskets to rod bearings going down. i dont necessaruly think the DOHC setup is wrong or bad i just think it has a long way to go to match the proven current set up

and yes i do agree with you that the ls1 wasnt the very best it could have been in comparrison to other ls series engines but it was excelent for what it was and is still proving itself all over the place. as far as the block goes there are stronger things than alluminum we all know that but its also in the nature of weight because build an iron block 5.3 and an ls1 with identical rwhp numbers through the same trans and roughly the same weight cars with identical gearing and tire and logic would tell you that the ls1 would win because of weight

i base my opinions of what i see on the street and track and on the street i havent been impressed by bolt on mustangs of any sort nor have i been impressed by newer body style gt's even cammed and what not they just dont deliver quite the power numbers as their boosted counter parts. also the 5th gen makes excelent power and handles great around tracks and the such but it doesnt perform in a straight line out here anyway that you figure a 380-390 something rwhp sports car should simply because of weight. hell it would perform tons better on a circut if it shed some of the bulky nonsense its just tough to make a newer car faster than an older when you add more horsepower and several hundred pounds its just doesnt necessarily work

and with bolt ons i say we should maybe on this site have some sort of a bet. just a gentlemens bet more than anything. im curious to see if the new 5.0 will respond to bolt ons and free mods and the such in the way that a 5th gen ls3 would. bolt ons have long been our big pride because of the power than can be added without diggin into the engine itself so lets see if the new mustang can "hang"

ill buy dinner if it wins

It'llrun

I think it would just be fine to wait for performance numbers from the Cadillac... It's going to be the proving ground all by itself. If it does really well, GM will have gained nearly invaluable information and, no doubt, will use it in a lighter, far less luxurious vehicle. They'll probably bump the size as well, if they can make it fit into a smaller vehicle. An engine like the 4.4L in 6.0L size... might just produce massive power.

JD_AMG

Allow me to throw some logic into the pot.
Why spend more more and get a physically bigger, heavier engine that isn't any more efficient?
Stop, how many performance cars today can get at least 19/27mpg?
Now how many of those (what 3 or so?) have at least 400hp?

If OHC engines are a "solution" then why is it the GM pushrod engine is leading in everything? Look at weight, physical size, power, torque curve and cost. All comparable OHC engines are massively bigger, heavier and more expensive while getting worse gas mileage and costing more.
Does anyone think its a coincidence that the LSx engines are being swapping into everything these days? Their compact pushrod design allows them to be physically smaller than many V6s, and lighter as well.
Example:

And the LSx series for example:
LS2 compared to a Nissan VQ 3.5L V6

LSx compared to a RB26 I6

LS1 compared to 1UZ 4L V8

http://harrismarine.co.nz/bbpress/?b...bat=551&inline
Or check out how massive nissans VH V8 is or Toyota's newer 5.6L V8 is.

It'llrun

That's been much of this discussion already. The answer is, the GOVERNMENT!
I only know of two possibilities which make over 400hp in American cars(excluding supercharged Ford models), but several in foreign cars. None I know of gets 19/27, but the new Camaro SS is only rated at 16city 24hwy, and the standard Corvette is 16/26. Cadillacs 443hp rated 4.4L DOHC is rated at 23, just 1 behind Camaro, while making more power thanks to a supercharger(which is fine be me), while the 5.0 DOHC Ford is rated at 17/26(manual) and 18/25(auto) on the hwy.

The new V6 Camaro is rated at 17/29... btw. The V6 Mustang is rated at 19/29 or 19/31. If economy is your thing, you probably aren't looking for a V8.

What's it leading? Compactness? Coolness? There are probably 50 engines available today, which happen to be DOHC and also happen to make at least the LS series power. Many are certainly close on economy as well, including GM's own. There are probably a dozen companies which offer 500hp or more in America today, most of them with OHC engines. I'm all for OHV, but there is potential in OHC, that's all.

Except fuel economy and power, which is truly negligible, I agree with you... But our government couldn't care less and it is that government which makes the rules.

I can't think of any V6 that's really larger than the LS series. Keep in mind, it's 4 cylinders long and V6's are only 3. Width and height.. well okay, but I'm sure it's close overall. Most V6's are fairly light these days. Then again, who wants to swap "up" to V6 power when a V8 is available??

The LS is a simple choice for many. Its size is a huge reason for many of those, and its aftermarket is the other huge reason.

justin455

I don't care how many times the EPA restructures their system, different driving and power delivery characteristics make nothing more than nominal ballpark figures of MPG numbers.
With OHV and OHC engines that are otherwise comparable, driving under the same conditions, the OHV will usually get better gas mileage.
LS1's get better gas milegae than Mod motors.
My DD 3.5 V6 OHV gets 2-3 mpg better than the average Honda Accord 3.5 DOHC with a M6 to my A4.

I don't think anyone is saying there is something wrong with OHC engines, just that they don't have the same characteristics we are used to in our OHV engines.
Most of us are just annoyed by the last 40 years that had lead up to the global misunderstanding of OHV engines. The fact that OHV is referred to as prehistoric technology while OHC is toted as a great technological advancement when in reality each is practically as old as the other.

I blame the blind ignorance of the general population concerning the fundamental basics of internal combustion engine workings should any government ban on OHV engines occur.

I will continue to buy and drive OHV engines as long as I possibly can. Even my lawnmower is OHV eventhough I'm sure I would've never noticed a difference.

Canbarelygo

i think more than anything the overall setup of a pushrod motor is just an easier setup and is a bit more point and squirt and user friendly which is appealing to people. in reality people that have some minor knowlegde in cars dont like to pop the hood in modern cars and see this massive jumble of nonsense that spans the entire engine bay because to be honest its a bit frightening. also in my mind knowing that the OHC style motor has been around basiclly as long as the OHV why has it taken the technology so long to catch up? the reliability may have been proven in smaller motors like the 4cyl set ups and v6's but it just hasnt developed far enough in the v8 catagory to be anything special to look at.

as far as cadillac goes if the ever decided to take a shot at a really performance geared car which is really unlikely with an OHC setup it would honestly be pretty alright if they could get the direction right but i dont see them doing it in a very big cube setup simply because its just so difficult to get cubic inches to work with the OHC setup because if they could manage it all these all out performance foreign makers would be jumping on it. it would be interesting to see them try it in all honesty but i just dont see it workin out super well. and i also doubt they will go that route because if they did make an all outn performance car then obviously its main competition right away would be good ole grandpa vette which is a bit ahead of the game at this point and thats a bit more catch up than i think they are willing to do.

honestly the weight is id say a decent factor in the OHC setup being flawed simply because of all the weight and bulkyness the just have some much going on its kinda holding it back.

and in the foreign big power department i hate to say it but a majority of the foreign v6, 8, 10, and 12 platforms that come to mind for me that really make good power are again boosted. boost just works for OHC engines im not super sure why but that seems to be what they need.

on another note i believe the feel of the power in an OHV motor such as the ls series is just a better feeling than the OHC style of the 4.6 mustangs simply because of the way it is delivered. i see the ls series as when you smash it, it just plants you and holds you there until you grab another gear and then its the same story for that gear where as when you rip it in a stang it feels good at first but as you start gettin rpms goin it just kinda ***** out up top. i think the OHV style is a more "fun" platform to play with. of course the only exception i have to offer in mustangs favor happens to be an 04 whipple cobra that a buddy of ours grabbed when he got back in town from turban land. it was pretty nasty when he took me for a ride but hell im sure anything with 646rwhp on 23psi would be a screamer lol. its all personal opinion on where ya like your power and for me i like to know what kind of power im makin at all given rpm instead of guessin when im too far into the rpm to get any fun out of it

a constant pull is the best pull IMO

It'llrun

It has nothing to do with fuel economy... They don't give a rat's behind about economy, no matter how many times they lie to us... It's based on C.A.F.E. standards... They keep lowering the limits on emissions and the typical OHC has lower emissions. They're looking for ways to force manufacturers into lower power(but it's clearly not working). It seems they intend to kill the OHV altogether, no matter how senseless that is... and it IS senseless.

They don't care what's easier... They WANT to make things more difficult for all of us... It's part of their plan for control. If they make it difficult enough, people will stop working on it... or so they think and hope.

JD_AMG

When in doubt, blame the government right? What exactly is the government getting out of this?

I guess you didn't look very hard, the C5 Z06 gets 19/27mpg while making a 405hp, as well as the LS2 C6...
I don't see any OHC engines doing this, that was my point.

Power/torque to weight? Compare the performance engines in its class to its physical size, gas mileage, and cost.
The LSx is smaller, lighter, less expensive, gets better gas mileage all while making as much or more power than the competition.

And theres the irony, all the "high tech" OHC engines are only close to the economy of the "low tech" pushrod engine.
And all of which are the size of a small barn compared to the LS7, none could fit into the engine bay of a C6 for example, their just to bulky and wide with those huge heads. So your left with the LS7 which is making as much power with less size and weight while getting better gas mileage?
So let me ask, if all you "need" is 500hp, why go with a bigger, heavier engine to get there?

I guess you didn't see the pictures posted above?
The Nissan VQ V6 is clearly much larger than the LS2.