Low Lash Solid Roller?Yes for the street.
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 328
Likes: 1
From: Baton Rouge La
We make LLSR cams everyday for blown BBC and other engines but you would the the first for a LS. We have done some for turbo which is blown. It will catch on with the LS market soon enough. If you don't like it we will take it back👍
Launching!
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 289
Likes: 7
From: Richmond VA
hmmm, could you pm me pricing when you have the time?
I stopped looking at this after seeing 1Sick_eg's troubles with the Jesel's and valve covers. Maybe once a known good & complete bolt-in solution (which doesn't require any machining) is available I'll revisit it. I'll continue to watch the threads though.
I used the inexpensive Pro-Form valve covers. It took me all of about 30 minutes with a die grinder to clearance the valve covers to clear the Jesel rockers. As far as hottrodding and modding goes, it is pretty simple and straight forward.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
They say 10thou clearance when warm recommended for my alloy block
I used the proform covers and I did grind a little clearance. But any contact was only on a couple of rockers, and it really was very very small, so even without grinding I dounbt it would ever have presented a problem for me.
But it only took a few minutes so I ground a little away from each valve cover where the rockers would be.
I probably ground about 40thou of material away it is that small.
There was no contact with my TFS 225cc cathedral heads and the Jesels.
I used the proform covers and I did grind a little clearance. But any contact was only on a couple of rockers, and it really was very very small, so even without grinding I dounbt it would ever have presented a problem for me.
But it only took a few minutes so I ground a little away from each valve cover where the rockers would be.
I probably ground about 40thou of material away it is that small.
There was no contact with my TFS 225cc cathedral heads and the Jesels.
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TECH Addict
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,189
Likes: 123
From: Portland, Oregon
I am my father's son, and like his father before him, we tend to over-engineer things.
So, with durability being paramount, and efficiency being a close second, would this be a worthwhile investment for a daily driver?
I have no business revving past 7500rpms, and no desire. So the upper rpms stability really isn't a selling point for me.
However, this aforementioned 20hp gain across the board is. Even if those numbers are a little inflated, any measurable gain all the way across the powerband is a sure sign of increased efficiency. And this interests me.
Do solid roller lifters add any benefit to the oiling system? More stable oil pressure? Any measurable benefit regarding the oiling system when switching from HR to SR?
The oiling system is what I feel the main drawback is. A hydraulic roller will get you to the limits of the wet sump LS oiling system pretty easy.
Does the fact that the lifters don't use oil pressure to operate return oil, or at least oil pressure, back to the system that would otherwise be wasted supporting a hydraulic lifter? Does this contribute to the effectiveness the LLSR system offers at high rpms?
Realistically, will this system require regular adjustment? How often? Ten thousand miles? Twenty?
If this is a legitimate durability upgrade, then I will definitely be more interested. I don't have a problem spending money on items that will help improve the longevity of my investment.
So, with durability being paramount, and efficiency being a close second, would this be a worthwhile investment for a daily driver?
I have no business revving past 7500rpms, and no desire. So the upper rpms stability really isn't a selling point for me.
However, this aforementioned 20hp gain across the board is. Even if those numbers are a little inflated, any measurable gain all the way across the powerband is a sure sign of increased efficiency. And this interests me.
Do solid roller lifters add any benefit to the oiling system? More stable oil pressure? Any measurable benefit regarding the oiling system when switching from HR to SR?
The oiling system is what I feel the main drawback is. A hydraulic roller will get you to the limits of the wet sump LS oiling system pretty easy.
Does the fact that the lifters don't use oil pressure to operate return oil, or at least oil pressure, back to the system that would otherwise be wasted supporting a hydraulic lifter? Does this contribute to the effectiveness the LLSR system offers at high rpms?
Realistically, will this system require regular adjustment? How often? Ten thousand miles? Twenty?
If this is a legitimate durability upgrade, then I will definitely be more interested. I don't have a problem spending money on items that will help improve the longevity of my investment.
I am my father's son, and like his father before him, we tend to over-engineer things.
So, with durability being paramount, and efficiency being a close second, would this be a worthwhile investment for a daily driver?
I have no business revving past 7500rpms, and no desire. So the upper rpms stability really isn't a selling point for me.
However, this aforementioned 20hp gain across the board is. Even if those numbers are a little inflated, any measurable gain all the way across the powerband is a sure sign of increased efficiency. And this interests me.
Do solid roller lifters add any benefit to the oiling system? More stable oil pressure? Any measurable benefit regarding the oiling system when switching from HR to SR?
The oiling system is what I feel the main drawback is. A hydraulic roller will get you to the limits of the wet sump LS oiling system pretty easy.
Does the fact that the lifters don't use oil pressure to operate return oil, or at least oil pressure, back to the system that would otherwise be wasted supporting a hydraulic lifter? Does this contribute to the effectiveness the LLSR system offers at high rpms?
Realistically, will this system require regular adjustment? How often? Ten thousand miles? Twenty?
If this is a legitimate durability upgrade, then I will definitely be more interested. I don't have a problem spending money on items that will help improve the longevity of my investment.
So, with durability being paramount, and efficiency being a close second, would this be a worthwhile investment for a daily driver?
I have no business revving past 7500rpms, and no desire. So the upper rpms stability really isn't a selling point for me.
However, this aforementioned 20hp gain across the board is. Even if those numbers are a little inflated, any measurable gain all the way across the powerband is a sure sign of increased efficiency. And this interests me.
Do solid roller lifters add any benefit to the oiling system? More stable oil pressure? Any measurable benefit regarding the oiling system when switching from HR to SR?
The oiling system is what I feel the main drawback is. A hydraulic roller will get you to the limits of the wet sump LS oiling system pretty easy.
Does the fact that the lifters don't use oil pressure to operate return oil, or at least oil pressure, back to the system that would otherwise be wasted supporting a hydraulic lifter? Does this contribute to the effectiveness the LLSR system offers at high rpms?
Realistically, will this system require regular adjustment? How often? Ten thousand miles? Twenty?
If this is a legitimate durability upgrade, then I will definitely be more interested. I don't have a problem spending money on items that will help improve the longevity of my investment.
Valve Cover Oil Jets Hi David, some great observations.
1. The OEM GM S/S rockers are is best, when HP is needed CHS trunion upgraded. (most here agree)
2. The LLSR would need a S/S shaft rocker kit allowing valve adjustment.
3. The D/D would see high cost, though this could be a good choice.
4. The HP increase is possible with same lobe lift and duration.
5. The Valve Spring pressure increase/inertia increase required by GREATER lobe acceleration of a LLSR would remove some of the HP increase, I would fit a PSI-1511ML.
6. The Valve Train Weight effects engine acceleration a GREAT amount, little change in HP, a major increase in lower gears with Titanium Valves is observed.
7. YES, I restrict lifter galley oil in some BAJA engines with a solid roller camshaft, then cool the valve springs with my Valve Covers as they have Oil Jets for each spring.
8. YES, my problem with a HLR is that the lifter will reduce valve travel, internal piston "bleed", when a higher nose pressure valve spring is used.
This loose lash problem starts at 6200 RPM and can cause push rod loss/rocket shaft retaining bolt strip out.
9. The well designed Valve Train requires little/no adjustment. (50K miles)
My report is observed to the customer upon engine rebuild at the end of the season.
When that report states the Valve Lash is as was set, the customer is pleased.
Yes David, I agree.
My method would be to use EAP with both, equal lift/duration lobes, one with greater acceleration and provide you the report.
I do not charge for the model report.
Lance, BTW I have fitted IR Camshafts
1. The OEM GM S/S rockers are is best, when HP is needed CHS trunion upgraded. (most here agree)
2. The LLSR would need a S/S shaft rocker kit allowing valve adjustment.
3. The D/D would see high cost, though this could be a good choice.
4. The HP increase is possible with same lobe lift and duration.
5. The Valve Spring pressure increase/inertia increase required by GREATER lobe acceleration of a LLSR would remove some of the HP increase, I would fit a PSI-1511ML.
6. The Valve Train Weight effects engine acceleration a GREAT amount, little change in HP, a major increase in lower gears with Titanium Valves is observed.
7. YES, I restrict lifter galley oil in some BAJA engines with a solid roller camshaft, then cool the valve springs with my Valve Covers as they have Oil Jets for each spring.
8. YES, my problem with a HLR is that the lifter will reduce valve travel, internal piston "bleed", when a higher nose pressure valve spring is used.
This loose lash problem starts at 6200 RPM and can cause push rod loss/rocket shaft retaining bolt strip out.
9. The well designed Valve Train requires little/no adjustment. (50K miles)
My report is observed to the customer upon engine rebuild at the end of the season.
When that report states the Valve Lash is as was set, the customer is pleased.
Yes David, I agree.
My method would be to use EAP with both, equal lift/duration lobes, one with greater acceleration and provide you the report.
I do not charge for the model report.
Lance, BTW I have fitted IR Camshafts
Hi David, some great observations.
1. The OEM GM S/S rockers are is best, when HP is needed CHS trunion upgraded. (most here agree)
2. The LLSR would need a S/S shaft rocker kit allowing valve adjustment.
3. The D/D would see high cost, though this could be a good choice.
4. The HP increase is possible with same lobe lift and duration.
6. The Valve Train Weight effects engine acceleration a GREAT amount, little change in HP, a major increase in lower gears with Titanium Valves is observed.
9. The well designed Valve Train requires little/no adjustment. (50K miles)
1. The OEM GM S/S rockers are is best, when HP is needed CHS trunion upgraded. (most here agree)
2. The LLSR would need a S/S shaft rocker kit allowing valve adjustment.
3. The D/D would see high cost, though this could be a good choice.
4. The HP increase is possible with same lobe lift and duration.
6. The Valve Train Weight effects engine acceleration a GREAT amount, little change in HP, a major increase in lower gears with Titanium Valves is observed.
9. The well designed Valve Train requires little/no adjustment. (50K miles)
3. The LLSR set up was actually cheaper than the short travel hydraulic set up it replaced. I have so far not seen any maintenance cost increases. My warm idle oil pressure increased 13-15 psi when I swapped in my new set up with no changes to oil pump, o-ring, etc. I've also never dealt with collapsed lifter BS on them.
4. I've wondered about this, but you lost approx. 5-6 degrees duration due to the lash. I preloaded my valves 0.003" to minimize this loss, which results in 0.007" warm lash. On the other hand, you lose virtually no lift vs hydraulics, and you eliminate the pumping up and down delays.
6. Agreed. The solid lifters were lighter in my case, and you can definitely feel the better throttle response.
Last comment. I've had quite a few very experienced engine, performance, and dyno guys at least see my motor and hear it run over the past seven months. Most are surprised it's a solid roller due to how quiet it is. Bottom line - these are NOT your father's solid cams.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
Given how well hydraulic cams have been proven, I really dont think there is a huge sway one way or the other for 99% of users.
But....I dont see checking valve clearances in a hard used turbocharged or performance engine every few thousand miles etc is such a bad thing.
I recently had mine apart for a refresh over the winter. At the last event I was at where I ran a standing 1km...much later after the run when leaving the event I noticed when starting the car from cold....it was a little off cylinders for a few minutes. When warm it was fine again...but this did tell me the valve clearances had tightened up slightly.
I reset when I got home and all was fine.
When it all came apart just a few weeks ago I decided to measure the valves. ALL the intake valves measured a little longer than factory specs. But a couple of the inlets were longer than that again. Only a few thou but enough to make a difference with the LLSR.
With a hydraulic this would never be picked up. So is that a god thing or bad ? IMO good...valve clearances dont change for no reason, so they can give forewarning to other impending problems. I see that as good.
Until that event though, I've had an LLSR for around 18 months, maybe 5000 miles and no issues. I've no intentions to change back to hydraulic. When i changed, I just wanted to remove all the potential variables there can be with it.
But....I dont see checking valve clearances in a hard used turbocharged or performance engine every few thousand miles etc is such a bad thing.
I recently had mine apart for a refresh over the winter. At the last event I was at where I ran a standing 1km...much later after the run when leaving the event I noticed when starting the car from cold....it was a little off cylinders for a few minutes. When warm it was fine again...but this did tell me the valve clearances had tightened up slightly.
I reset when I got home and all was fine.
When it all came apart just a few weeks ago I decided to measure the valves. ALL the intake valves measured a little longer than factory specs. But a couple of the inlets were longer than that again. Only a few thou but enough to make a difference with the LLSR.
With a hydraulic this would never be picked up. So is that a god thing or bad ? IMO good...valve clearances dont change for no reason, so they can give forewarning to other impending problems. I see that as good.
Until that event though, I've had an LLSR for around 18 months, maybe 5000 miles and no issues. I've no intentions to change back to hydraulic. When i changed, I just wanted to remove all the potential variables there can be with it.
Shimmed Rockerms = OK I too AGREE with the "Darth" comment.
I have done this with LS and, in the past, with Ford 351-C Pantera engines.
I always had PERFECT engine life.
I was AFRAID to state this option due to other "scorned" posts of mine.
The sign of good cylinder head machine work is when a Straight Edge registers across all the valve stems.
I would like to add, the CHE rocker arm trunnion upgrade could be required based on lobe acceleration.
The #4 statement could be related as a GOOD thing AND an IR lobe would allow LESS duration with MUCH more .200" duration.
This measurement is the true cam performance indicator.
My BEST Turbo Camshaft had a Solid IR intake lobe with a Hydraulic exhaust lobe.
That result was no lifter "pump up" causing the Intake Valve to remain open AFTER engine backfire.
When the intake valve remains open, constant back fire will occur.
Pantera Twin Turbo, my "bit of kit", Circa 1975.
Lance
I have done this with LS and, in the past, with Ford 351-C Pantera engines.
I always had PERFECT engine life.
I was AFRAID to state this option due to other "scorned" posts of mine.
The sign of good cylinder head machine work is when a Straight Edge registers across all the valve stems.
I would like to add, the CHE rocker arm trunnion upgrade could be required based on lobe acceleration.
The #4 statement could be related as a GOOD thing AND an IR lobe would allow LESS duration with MUCH more .200" duration.
This measurement is the true cam performance indicator.
My BEST Turbo Camshaft had a Solid IR intake lobe with a Hydraulic exhaust lobe.
That result was no lifter "pump up" causing the Intake Valve to remain open AFTER engine backfire.
When the intake valve remains open, constant back fire will occur.
Pantera Twin Turbo, my "bit of kit", Circa 1975.
Lance
LS1Tech Sponsor
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 507
Likes: 106
Low lash is a relative term. Where .022"-.024" might be a very common lash setting for a typical solid roller, our LS LLR cams typically are set up for about .010" hot lash.
The low lash is a great way to go for a solid roller for a great many applications. These days we have our LLRs in everything from daily drivers to all out race cars. Our customers absolutely love them.
~Steven
The low lash is a great way to go for a solid roller for a great many applications. These days we have our LLRs in everything from daily drivers to all out race cars. Our customers absolutely love them.
~Steven
The #4 statement could be related as a GOOD thing AND an IR lobe would allow LESS duration with MUCH more .200" duration.
This measurement is the true cam performance indicator.
My BEST Turbo Camshaft had a Solid IR intake lobe with a Hydraulic exhaust lobe.
That result was no lifter "pump up" causing the Intake Valve to remain open AFTER engine backfire.
When the intake valve remains open, constant back fire will occur.
Pantera Twin Turbo, my "bit of kit", Circa 1975.
Lance
This measurement is the true cam performance indicator.
My BEST Turbo Camshaft had a Solid IR intake lobe with a Hydraulic exhaust lobe.
That result was no lifter "pump up" causing the Intake Valve to remain open AFTER engine backfire.
When the intake valve remains open, constant back fire will occur.
Pantera Twin Turbo, my "bit of kit", Circa 1975.
Lance
Pantera is pretty bad ***. I had a good friend with one of those, but he was insistent on keeping it bone stock. he had a lot of unusual cars like that.
Darth Vader Pantera Hi "Darth" and thanks.
You are not the first to give me friendship, the first "Vader"
You may find it interesting, Ted Mitchel was the first, the Darth Vader Pantera owner.
You may want to view his site, "vaderacing.com".
WHO IS YOUR FRIEND, the Pantera owner ?
LANCE, BTW he will use the "Dark Force" Star Alt/Motor on his Pantera
You are not the first to give me friendship, the first "Vader"
You may find it interesting, Ted Mitchel was the first, the Darth Vader Pantera owner.
You may want to view his site, "vaderacing.com".
WHO IS YOUR FRIEND, the Pantera owner ?
LANCE, BTW he will use the "Dark Force" Star Alt/Motor on his Pantera
Hi "Darth" and thanks.
You are not the first to give me friendship, the first "Vader"
You may find it interesting, Ted Mitchel was the first, the Darth Vader Pantera owner.
You may want to view his site, "vaderacing.com".
WHO IS YOUR FRIEND, the Pantera owner ?
LANCE, BTW he will use the "Dark Force" Star Alt/Motor on his Pantera
You are not the first to give me friendship, the first "Vader"
You may find it interesting, Ted Mitchel was the first, the Darth Vader Pantera owner.
You may want to view his site, "vaderacing.com".
WHO IS YOUR FRIEND, the Pantera owner ?
LANCE, BTW he will use the "Dark Force" Star Alt/Motor on his Pantera
Launching!
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 205
Likes: 3
From: Valencia Ca
the shaft rockers eliminate any kind of rocker stud flex thats where the "power gain" is. They are super stable youll need to ck the lash les
I have some old SS Jesels love em. And an old man Isky solid that uses at least .020 lash. Love it...ramp makes power but not too crazy oughta last a long time.
Most times if you are just over 6k- on a st car a HR is just fine I just love the way they SR run sound and rev there is a noticeable difference.
Sound is badazz through the pipes and the valvetrain.
I have some old SS Jesels love em. And an old man Isky solid that uses at least .020 lash. Love it...ramp makes power but not too crazy oughta last a long time.
Most times if you are just over 6k- on a st car a HR is just fine I just love the way they SR run sound and rev there is a noticeable difference.
Sound is badazz through the pipes and the valvetrain.
