The Little Power Gains
01-16-2006, 07:46 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by Bring the Noise
Zero Friction the Driveline to help get the HP to the ground....
In the Transmission, the U joints, the Rear end, the bearings at the wheels etc...
Reduce the unsprung weight to help when launching, turning, and stopping!
Light weight brake rotors and calipers.
Light weight upper control arms, lower control arms, panhard bars etc...
Balance the weight in the car
Port matching the Manifold to the heads and the throttlebody to the manifold for optimized intake flow.
Port match the exhaust ports on the heads to the headers and make sure the gasket doesn't restrict exhaust flow.
Optimized header design (Tri Y's or more recently Flowtech's Afterburners) even out the exhaust gas flow to optimize power.
Zero friction on the cylinder walls has shown to increase power by a minute amount (also allows for a tighter clearance between the piston and the cylinder wall).
Direct Port Injection, now showing up on 4 bangers from Mazda (Mazda Speed 5) and soon on the Solstice GXP. When used with a Fogger output this will help with atomization of the fuel into the air (biger bang and less to burn off = more power and lower emisions).
Porshe and Borg Warners new Turbo is a good idea for increase power... Single Turbo with Variable angle blades on the impeller. Using High heat resistent materials allows this to be used on Gas powered Vehicles (has been inuse on Diesels for a couple of years). It will be on the 06 or 07 911 turbo.
Maybe match up a heat reflective zerofriction on the intake and exhaust runners in the cylinder heads along with heat reflective zerofriction on the pistons and cylinder walls (direct the heat flow through the exhaust). Then Coated headers and Ceramic Brick Cat's along with a Coated cat back exhaust... just make sure the exhaust tips are pointed away from the body as you wouldn't want to warp plastic and metal.
A certain amount of heat needs to remain in the motor to get the metals to expand to operational temps as well as getting the lubricants to there optimum viscosity. So pulling to much heat out of the motor could have a detriminental affect.
Optimized exhaust flow could allow pistons in the combustion cycle within the engine to make more power as the pistons that are in the exhaust cycle give off less backpressure.
Optimized Fuel air mixture... Optimized Fuel Source (if there is one).
In the Transmission, the U joints, the Rear end, the bearings at the wheels etc...
Reduce the unsprung weight to help when launching, turning, and stopping!
Light weight brake rotors and calipers.
Light weight upper control arms, lower control arms, panhard bars etc...
Balance the weight in the car
Port matching the Manifold to the heads and the throttlebody to the manifold for optimized intake flow.
Port match the exhaust ports on the heads to the headers and make sure the gasket doesn't restrict exhaust flow.
Optimized header design (Tri Y's or more recently Flowtech's Afterburners) even out the exhaust gas flow to optimize power.
Zero friction on the cylinder walls has shown to increase power by a minute amount (also allows for a tighter clearance between the piston and the cylinder wall).
Direct Port Injection, now showing up on 4 bangers from Mazda (Mazda Speed 5) and soon on the Solstice GXP. When used with a Fogger output this will help with atomization of the fuel into the air (biger bang and less to burn off = more power and lower emisions).
Porshe and Borg Warners new Turbo is a good idea for increase power... Single Turbo with Variable angle blades on the impeller. Using High heat resistent materials allows this to be used on Gas powered Vehicles (has been inuse on Diesels for a couple of years). It will be on the 06 or 07 911 turbo.
Maybe match up a heat reflective zerofriction on the intake and exhaust runners in the cylinder heads along with heat reflective zerofriction on the pistons and cylinder walls (direct the heat flow through the exhaust). Then Coated headers and Ceramic Brick Cat's along with a Coated cat back exhaust... just make sure the exhaust tips are pointed away from the body as you wouldn't want to warp plastic and metal.
A certain amount of heat needs to remain in the motor to get the metals to expand to operational temps as well as getting the lubricants to there optimum viscosity. So pulling to much heat out of the motor could have a detriminental affect.
Optimized exhaust flow could allow pistons in the combustion cycle within the engine to make more power as the pistons that are in the exhaust cycle give off less backpressure.
Optimized Fuel air mixture... Optimized Fuel Source (if there is one).
01-16-2006, 02:41 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by Old SStroker
Much of this thread has degenerated into "tongue in cheek" humor. I have the awful suspicion that this quoted post wasn't meant to be humorous.
01-16-2006, 03:29 PM
#43
How 'bout removing the thermostat. Sure you won't have a heater, but, here in Florida, I don't use it anyway. It keeps a constant flow of coolant flowing through the heads/block. Makes it run cooler. This is just my guesstimate ... makes sense to me ... anyone know of any side-effects of doing this? It seems it would make the engine always run cooler.
01-16-2006, 04:13 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by JEB99TA
How 'bout removing the thermostat. Sure you won't have a heater, but, here in Florida, I don't use it anyway. It keeps a constant flow of coolant flowing through the heads/block. Makes it run cooler. This is just my guesstimate ... makes sense to me ... anyone know of any side-effects of doing this? It seems it would make the engine always run cooler.
A restrictor in place of the thermostat works well for some.
Brad
01-16-2006, 07:46 PM
#45
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A restriction in the cooling system is a good thing as it helps retain pressure in the engine. Pressure collapses air pockets that can collect in the heads and can cause hotspots. As air doesn't conduct heat as well as the liquid coolant certain areas of the cylinder heads can run too hot which may lead to detonation.
01-17-2006, 06:47 AM
#46
...also water will boil at above normal boiling point once you put it under presure!
if you want it to run cooler (a good idea esp. with high rpm or forced induction) then its better to run a bigger rad! but that increases air resistance!!! also you might want to think about the air flow over the engine. this can help with cooling, and is the reason mid engined cars ahve a lot of problems overheating. also this is "free" cooling as it restrict the air flow very little! just make sure you get the air to vent above the car and not underneath! this will help reduce lift and keep the car more stable at high speeds!
Chris.
if you want it to run cooler (a good idea esp. with high rpm or forced induction) then its better to run a bigger rad! but that increases air resistance!!! also you might want to think about the air flow over the engine. this can help with cooling, and is the reason mid engined cars ahve a lot of problems overheating. also this is "free" cooling as it restrict the air flow very little! just make sure you get the air to vent above the car and not underneath! this will help reduce lift and keep the car more stable at high speeds!
Chris.
01-17-2006, 10:39 AM
#47
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Originally Posted by Squintz Palladoris
Water does not stay in the radiator long enough to cool down while on the highway so it ends up over heating at cruising speeds.
posted on my watch or I'll have to hunt you down personally. There's absolutely no truth to that.There's also no truth in the higher pressure keeping air bubbles down. The pressure in the block is just minumally more than the pressure in the radiator. It's a closed system in which pressure will equalize. The only changing factor is the movement of the pump which is enough to create the positive flow, but nowhere near enough to make any difference as far as bubble formation.
Anyone who removes a thermostat and then runs hotter has definately done something wrong. The most common mistake is forgetting to block off the bypass, which leaves it wide open for approx 30% or so of the coolant to bypass the radiator at that point.
The myths have went on long enough.
01-17-2006, 12:56 PM
#48
I can only say this: When we used to haul hay on the farm many years ago, we always ran the trucks without thermostats to keep them cooled down under load. We also would run them harder when they would run hot. It always seemed to work. I'm talkin' 100+* weather.
01-17-2006, 01:12 PM
#49
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one little thing that a lot of people over look is cleaning your damn engine. it will run cooler, lighter, and less corrosion.
in highschool i bought my bosses old landscaping truck, an 86 nissan hardbody with 150,000 miles in front of an over loaded trailer. and the thing ran really hott no matter what he did. 20 minutes with tire ramps and a pressure washer and i have 10 lbs of dirt on my driveway and the engine ran just fine after that. (untill i drove it into a lake)
in highschool i bought my bosses old landscaping truck, an 86 nissan hardbody with 150,000 miles in front of an over loaded trailer. and the thing ran really hott no matter what he did. 20 minutes with tire ramps and a pressure washer and i have 10 lbs of dirt on my driveway and the engine ran just fine after that. (untill i drove it into a lake)
01-17-2006, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by white2001s10
I'll see no more of this posted on my watch or I'll have to hunt you down personally. There's absolutely no truth to that.
There's also no truth in the higher pressure keeping air bubbles down. The pressure in the block is just minumally more than the pressure in the radiator. It's a closed system in which pressure will equalize. The only changing factor is the movement of the pump which is enough to create the positive flow, but nowhere near enough to make any difference as far as bubble formation.
Anyone who removes a thermostat and then runs hotter has definately done something wrong. The most common mistake is forgetting to block off the bypass, which leaves it wide open for approx 30% or so of the coolant to bypass the radiator at that point.
The myths have went on long enough.
posted on my watch or I'll have to hunt you down personally. There's absolutely no truth to that.There's also no truth in the higher pressure keeping air bubbles down. The pressure in the block is just minumally more than the pressure in the radiator. It's a closed system in which pressure will equalize. The only changing factor is the movement of the pump which is enough to create the positive flow, but nowhere near enough to make any difference as far as bubble formation.
Anyone who removes a thermostat and then runs hotter has definately done something wrong. The most common mistake is forgetting to block off the bypass, which leaves it wide open for approx 30% or so of the coolant to bypass the radiator at that point.
The myths have went on long enough.
I said nothing about air pockets and pressure. If the cooling system is sealed it will have pressure when it heats up.
I have removed the thermostat before ( not on an ls1) and it did exactly as I described in MY post. I have seen the same thing happen in other applications and putting a restrictor in place of the thermostat worked just fine, once the correct size was found.
The only thing I need to elaborate on from my post is the fact that a car equipped with an electric fan that turns on via a thermostat, or a manual switch by the driver, will heat up just fine with no Thermostat.
Brad
01-17-2006, 02:59 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by Squintz Palladoris
The only thing I need to elaborate on from my post is the fact that a car equipped with an electric fan that turns on via a thermostat, or a manual switch by the driver, will heat up just fine with no Thermostat.
BTW, this isn't bust your ***** day, but I quoted the above line from your post because that is also incorrect. In many situations such as driving down the freeway an engine will never reach operating temperature without a tstat.
Don't take it personal, but this is fact vs misinformation/theory.
01-17-2006, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by white2001s10
...There's also no truth in the higher pressure keeping air bubbles down. The pressure in the block is just minumally more than the pressure in the radiator. It's a closed system in which pressure will equalize. The only changing factor is the movement of the pump which is enough to create the positive flow, but nowhere near enough to make any difference as far as bubble formation. ..
Am I going to have to screw a couple of pressure taps into my engine and find out for myself?
01-17-2006, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidNJ
What has been confusing to me is all the LS1 long blocks that are offered for not much more than the cost of the parts. How do they cover all of the measuring and machining?
01-17-2006, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MadBill
Everything I have read says that at high RPM there is significant flow restriction in an engine's cooling system, leading to an appreciable pressure difference between the inlet to the pump and the upstream side of the thermostat. Surely all the horsepower (10 or more) a water pump is shown to absorb at high RPM must be doing something?
Am I going to have to screw a couple of pressure taps into my engine and find out for myself?
Am I going to have to screw a couple of pressure taps into my engine and find out for myself?
The pressure difference between a system with a wide open tstat and a system with no tstat will be a non-issue anyway.
Most pumps would cavitate well before reaching a pressure significant enough to eliminate air bubbles.
01-17-2006, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by white2001s10
Don't take it personal, but this is fact vs misinformation/theory.
. I am just sharing my personal experience. Not a theory. If i see it happen more than once in 2 different applications. I believe it to be fact. Looks like from your expierience it went the other direction, which means the variables were different ie: a better cooling system than the cars I have seen this happen on. Instead of jumping to conclusions and figuring what you know to be fact and everything else to be "Theory" give it some thought first or ask why it was stated. 
Brad
01-17-2006, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by white2001s10
Please do.
The pressure difference between a system with a wide open tstat and a system with no tstat will be a non-issue anyway.
Most pumps would cavitate well before reaching a pressure significant enough to eliminate air bubbles.
The pressure difference between a system with a wide open tstat and a system with no tstat will be a non-issue anyway.
Most pumps would cavitate well before reaching a pressure significant enough to eliminate air bubbles.
Although air pockets can be an issue in cooling systems, we are actually refering here to water vapor bubbles/pockets, which can most certainly 'dissapear' back into liquid form the moment the local pressure exceeds the coolant's vapor pressure. Even a couple of psi due to the inherent restrictions of the cooling system and the thermostat (how else can a thermostat affect flow, except by causing a pressure increase and thus a flow reduction?) can be enough to turn vapor to liquid. Actually, the process usually operates the other way around: An engine running hot at high speed has considerable pump-induced additional pressure. When the revs drop, the pressure does too, and the coolant flashes to steam..
Here's a cut from EMP Stewart Components (mfgr. of racing water pumps, etc.) "Tech Tip #5 on the subject of pump pressure: http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tec...ech_Tips_5.htm
"Cross flow radiators are superior to upright radiators because the radiator cap is positioned on the low pressure (suction) side of the system. This prevents the pressure created by a high-flow water pump from forcing coolant past the radiator cap at high RPM. As mentioned in the radiator cap section, an upright radiator should be equipped with radiator cap with the highest pressure rating recommended by the manufacturer. The system will still force coolant past the cap at sustained high RPM. upright radiators should be equipped with radiator cap with the highest pressure rating recommended by the manufacturer."
01-17-2006, 11:00 PM
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Right the little bubbles you would see in a freshly opened pop.
Think about this. These bubbles that people have seen were obviously not under system pressure unless someone rigged a glass or plexi window into the water jacket... and yes I know it has been done.
Otherwise, how could a bubble exist at 17psi system pressure?
Have an answer? okay now for the same reason bubbles can also exist at 19psi block pressure. There's not a magical line where they just go away.
The pressure is higher yes, but so is the heat so the likelyhood of a bubble is no less.
Think about this. These bubbles that people have seen were obviously not under system pressure unless someone rigged a glass or plexi window into the water jacket... and yes I know it has been done.
Otherwise, how could a bubble exist at 17psi system pressure?
Have an answer? okay now for the same reason bubbles can also exist at 19psi block pressure. There's not a magical line where they just go away.
The pressure is higher yes, but so is the heat so the likelyhood of a bubble is no less.
01-18-2006, 06:48 AM
#59
Originally Posted by spanky_55amg
water injection is a band-aid. i saw it on the first page. if you need injection like water then you system is not set up right.
its by no means a band-aid, more another way of getting more power out of something! would you say the use of meth is a "band-aid"???
WRC teams use it because it allows them to run high boost on their high comp (10+ to 1) set ups! also people on the road use it bescause it allows them to push there engines as hard as they would on race, but on pump fuel!
i think many people just see it as a cooling agent, but infact it has very little cooling effect at all! the reason it is used is to help maintain a stable burn in the chamber. this then allows the engine to be pushed harder without dept.
its manly used on FI cars but the same principles can be used on high comp. NA aplications.
Chris.
01-18-2006, 12:14 PM
#60
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Reduce rotating weight.Light but strong drive shaft, light flywheel, light but strong u-joints and yolks, gundrilled forged rear axels, strong light weight gears, light weight wheels, don't over fill your rear end with too much gear oil. Rotating weight is worth 3 times more than regular dead weight.
Regular dead weight light weight K member with A-arms,Panhard bar, light weight battery, remove things you don't need ( big speakers,power amp, power antenna, front sway bar )etc...
Suspension- Allows you to get that power to the ground. QA-1 shocks,subframe connectors,torque arm, poly tranny mount, lower rear control arms,
Engine ceramic coated pistons,cromolly pushrods,glass beaded forged connecting rods, Nitraded crank, CNC ported and polished heads, cometic head gaskets etc...
hope this helps
Regular dead weight light weight K member with A-arms,Panhard bar, light weight battery, remove things you don't need ( big speakers,power amp, power antenna, front sway bar )etc...
Suspension- Allows you to get that power to the ground. QA-1 shocks,subframe connectors,torque arm, poly tranny mount, lower rear control arms,
Engine ceramic coated pistons,cromolly pushrods,glass beaded forged connecting rods, Nitraded crank, CNC ported and polished heads, cometic head gaskets etc...
hope this helps