Advanced Engineering Tech For the more hardcore LS1TECH residents

Benefits of a 32 valve heads

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 03-06-2006, 10:15 PM
  #81  
Staging Lane
 
Cobra20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

Default

Here is something for you guys to chew on
http://www.coatesengine.com/csrv.html
how is that for a head??
Old 03-11-2006, 09:44 AM
  #82  
TECH Enthusiast
 
LTSpeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Anna, OH
Posts: 607
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by 3valGenIv
WARD'S AUTOWORLD had and article back in Oct 1, 2003 ,about GM working on a 3-valve-per-cylinder for the pushrod V8 and V6 ,that just about equal to dohc in RPM and HP but cost less to build....
3-valve designs are not new. But there are some tradeoffs that have kept most of them off the road. A few: 1) the pistons tend to retain too much heat and cause detonation, 2) the valve train has almost the same inertia (and cost) of a 4-valve setup but less curtain/performance, 3) it doesn't improve packaging/layout at all.

I wouldn't use Ford as an example of "how it works". That design makes no sense to me at all.

When you can get better performance out of ideas like VTEC, VVT, ICT, etc, how much should really be put into 3-valve development? The ideal setup to replace the LS2 might be a 32-valve pushrod VVT/ICT setup. It could be done a lot smaller than the hulking Dominator heads, IMHO, and very streetable.
Old 03-28-2006, 09:43 AM
  #83  
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
 
J-Rod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,983
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts

Default

http://www.autoblog.com/2005/12/08/a...finitive-rant/

Autoblog Feature: OHC vs. OHV - the definitive rant

Posted Dec 8th 2005 7:00PM by Eric Bryant

OHC vs OHV
Spurred on by Joel's post on pushrod engines and some of the comments that it generated, I think it's time to take a closer look at the differences between OHC and OHV engines. We all "know" that OHC engines rev higher, produce less torque, increase specific output (power per unit displacement), operate more smoothly, and so on and so forth. Those are stereotypes, but ones that are indeed based on some honest real-world experiences. So were do these characteristics come from?

To figure this out, we need to first understand that engines are air pumps, and the volume of that air is what affects both power and torque characteristics. Peak power is basically determined by the limit of airflow per unit time. Peak torque is determined by airflow per combustion cycle; essentially, how much air is crammed into the cylinder on every intake stroke. This should hint towards the intertwined relationship between horsepower and torque, but we’ll cover that at some other time.

Peak power is relatively easy to achieve, airflow on a naturally-aspirated engine mostly being a function of the cross-section of the intake tract (the exhaust tract is important as well, but less so because there’s more pressure available to expel the exhaust gases). Specifically, the smallest cross-section of the intake port is going to present the largest restriction to flow if an even velocity is achieved throughout the port (and that’s a big “if”)*.

Valve curtain areaUsually, the area of the intake valve(s) is the ultimate determining factor, but this assumes that the intake valve is fully opened. By this, I mean that it’s lifted off the seat by at least 0.25 times the valve’s diameter, which is where the valve “curtain area” (the circumference of the valve times lift) equals the area of the valve itself. This should allow the valve to flow at its maximum - we’ll come back to this in a moment.

To achieve a large valve area, we need to maximize the diameter of the valves. In a two-valve head, this places each valve alongside the edge of the cylinder, a condition called “shrouding”. Due to the proximity of the cylinder wall along a part of LS6 chamber with cylinder outlinethe valve diameter (shown to the right as a red line superimposed on the combustion chamber), a significant portion of that curtain area becomes unusable. This is why it’s often necessary to lift the valve well beyond the 0.25 x diameter figure of merit in order to achieve peak flow. This is also why, all things being equal in terms of displacement, larger bores usually make more peak power - it frees up room for more valve area. Four-valve setups take advantage of more of the cylinder area, but almost as importantly, they suffer less from shrouding since the smaller diameter of the valves doesn’t as closely follow the cylinder wall (the valves can shroud each other, but that’s less of an issue).

All of the above points to an obvious airflow advantage for four-valve heads, given a fixed cylinder bore size. But there’s yet another advantage, this one related to the curtain area. Since multiple valves necessarily result in smaller valve diameters, this means that less valve lift is required to maximize flow. Less lift and smaller (read: lighter) valves makes the job of the valve springs much easier. Indeed the difficulty of closing the valves is often a limiting factor to how high an engine can safely rev, and it’s an extremely difficult problem to work around in a production engine where a valve spring life of a few thousand miles just isn’t acceptable.

This clearly points towards a multi-valve design - and almost by default, overhead cams** - as being superior for peak power. No big surprise, eh? But peak power is rarely what we’re after in a production engine.

More important is maintaining a healthy amount of torque over the usable rev range. No, this isn’t some sort of claim that Torque Is King, since proponents in that camp are usually interested only in peak numbers, and preferably at a low RPM. To obtain this, we need to fill the cylinder as much as possible across the rev range. Simply maximizing the valve area is not the way to accomplish this task, and choking down the intake tract to maintain velocity at low revs isn’t the way to go, either.

Assuming that sufficient bore diameter is available, and that there is enough displacement - such a nasty word! - to keep the maximum operating speed under, say, 6000 RPM (for those engines not employing exotic valvetrain components such as titanium or hollow-stem valves), it is quite possible to achieve great results with a 2V pushrod engine. Spend enough money on the valvetrain, and that arbitrary rev limit goes away, too. Additionally, the low-RPM airflow characteristics of a 2V wedge-type head are usually superior to those of a pent-roof narrow-angle 4V design, with more swirl (airflow rotation parallel to the cylinder axis) and tumble (perpendicular to the cylinder axis). Additionally, the area of the chamber that’s not occupied by valve allows the addition of addition quench area, which adds further turbulence to the mixture during the compression stroke. All of this can add up to excellent low-speed and part-throttle performance, which is why an engine like Chevrolet’s LS7 can offer nearly 75% of its peak torque anywhere between idle and redline, offer up 10% additional usable revs after hitting peak power, and manages to pull down some extremely respectable economy numbers. Hey, there’s a reason that Honda’s VTEC system on its V6 Accords barely cracks open one of the two intake valves below 3000 RPM.

For those that evaluate an engine based on mass, packaging volume, and fuel efficiency, OHV designs are very attractive, for stuffing a pair of cams into the cylinder heads adds volume and mass at just about the worst possible place on a V-configuration engine. Add in some roller followers and tall valve springs, and all of a sudden we’ve got V6s that are larger than V8s, and “small” V8s that are larger than the big-blocks of the 60s. During an SAE presentation that I attended, Chevy’s Dave Hill stated that the Nissan VQ35 DOHC V6 was benchmarked during the development of the C5 Corvette, and was clearly found to provide significantly less power per unit mass and unit volume than the GM’s GenIII V8. Peak-power-per-unit-displacement is strictly an amateurish way to compare two engines.

What about smoothness, NVH, power delivery, the touchy-feely stuff - do OHC engines really offer an advantage? To some extent, yes. The OHV valvetrain tends to create a rather long string of mechanical interfaces, each bringing with it the potential for noise and vibration. And rocker arms can make a heck of a racket as well (as anyone who as installed a set of aftermarket roller rockers knows). But OHC engines necessarily place the cams far away from the crankshaft, which means that the cam drive system often has an opportunity to emit noise. As well,
Old 04-14-2006, 09:02 PM
  #84  
Teching In
 
MIGHTYMOUS327's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by DavidNJ
The BMW is rather unimpressive IMHO. We actually have quite a few engines in that power range. Ferraris F430 is only 5% shy of the BMW's power yet has 15% less displacement. Lamborghini has a similar 5 liter V-10, currently rated at 520hp. Mercedes also has a 500hp motor, trading revs for displacement, it is 6.2L and 512hp. And probably the smallest packaging and most docile performance of this group. In reality, it is in a lower or similar state of tune than a G35 or BMW's new 6.

The there is the LS7 and the Viper/Ram V-10. Dodge does it with displacement. Lots of it. GM does it with lots of little tricks: very light valve train, very sensitive MAF, two-mode exhaust. GM also wins the smallest packaging.

If someone said to pick from this group for the best engine for a 24-hour road race, I'd pick the MB. My guess is it also has the highest ultimate power capacity of this group if built as race engine (with the appropriate bottom end, cams, intake, and exhaust.
don't forget about the porsche v10. also those numbers are factory numbers not real world dyno numbers so not a good basis.
Old 04-14-2006, 09:09 PM
  #85  
Teching In
 
MIGHTYMOUS327's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by gun5l1ng3r
I agree on MB engines^. Look at what they have done with the SL65 and the CL65 or even the SLR! I know those are turbo motors, but the SC MB motors are really sweet!Low revs yet tons of power and a truck load of torque off idle. I would like to see the torque from the Ferrari 430 at 1500RPMS compared to the MB at 1500 RPMS ( I know they are packaged for different uses).
the 55's are slow, they feel like the torque is there but when the revs get past 4000 you may as well take a nap. now the 600's and 65's are a different story.
Old 04-15-2006, 08:32 AM
  #86  
TECH Apprentice
 
mcgodx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

About the packaging: Yes, the 4V/cyl. engines tend to be a lot larger, but you can make do with it. For a long time, people in the Ranger community were saying it was impossible to put a 32V mod motor into a Ranger, then someone actually did it. He said it wasn't nearly as hard as he thought it would be. He didn't use A/C, but it could probably be done with some ingenuity...

Just something to think about.

Ranger engine bays aren't all that big.
Old 04-17-2006, 09:47 AM
  #87  
Banned
iTrader: (1)
 
FieroZ34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 634
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by MIGHTYMOUS327
the 55's are slow, they feel like the torque is there but when the revs get past 4000 you may as well take a nap. now the 600's and 65's are a different story.
The SL65 is a brilliant machine. I wouldn't say it signs off at 4000rpm, it pulls hard to 6, but that's about it. Again, the name of MB's game is torque. 740 of it from off idle to 4000rpm in fact. BMW on the other hand uses gearing and torque converters to make up for the lack of torque. Having driven the new M5 (Unimpressed by the acceleration, but that's another story), and our Z3 3.0, gearing makes up for the lack of low end torque. Surprisingly, the Z3 doesn't make very good low end, but only revs to 6500. But below 3500-4000 it isn't very strong. I'd expect a motor with this high end orientation to climb to well over 7000, but yet it's done at 6500. Anwyays, point is, the AMAZING gearing of the 5-speed auto, and the 7-speed manual/auto thingy in the M5, makes up for lack of torque. Punch the gas off the line, and it'll jump as hard as an LS1. The torque converter moves RPM right to 3000-3500, and from there on it runs up to redline, hits the next gear and does it again. The M5 is never in the lower rpm range, except in cruise on the highway. And lay into it a bit, and you don't even feel it, you just watch to RPMs raise right to 5500 or so and it's set to go. The Z3 is a bti more dramatic, but again, you never notice the lack of toqrue because it's never in the lower RPMs. The M3 is a repeat, gearing makes up for lack of low end power.

As for the SL65, well gearing doesn't even matter. The only way I know when it shifts is when the tach moves. Power is LITERALLY the same from 1500rpm to 6000. At least it feels it. It is just an outrage of thrust at any RPM, any gear.

So in summary, if my eyes were closed, I wouldn't notice the difference between a 8000rpm BMW and a 6000rpm MB assuming their acceleration was the same, the only difference being RPm orientation. I will all but guarantee the MB will have no off the line advantage, due to the BMW's amazing trannsmission work. Ok, that's all, a lotta useless info and statation of the obvious there...
Old 04-19-2006, 06:05 AM
  #88  
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (12)
 
Whisper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 595
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post

Default 4 valves per cylinders posibble with OHV engines?

I obviously do not know alot about car engines other than the simple fact that more vales per cylinder is much more eficient(and to my understanding also produces more power). My question is if its possible to have more than 2 valves percylinder with a pushrod engine? If so, can anyone tell me which engine or company employs this?

I also had the question of if it were possible for variable valve timing to be implemented in pushrod V8s but had this answered by a magazine article. I know there are many variants of VVT and one type brings forth another question. Ferrari had a version of VVT to where the cam lobes were uneven and achieved more lift by advancing the cam laterally. I was wondering if this could also be possible in a push rod V8?


I thought this would be the most appropriate forum for this since you people would most likely know what youre talking about.
Old 04-19-2006, 06:42 AM
  #89  
TECH Addict
 
chuntington101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,866
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts

Default

i was looking at the mopar V8 the other day and they run a 2 valve per cylinder set up that looks as though it could be translated into a very nice and compact 4 vlave per cylinder using push rods!

Chris.
Old 04-19-2006, 09:39 AM
  #90  
Banned
iTrader: (1)
 
FieroZ34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 634
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

It is possible to have more than 2 valves per cylinder with an OHV design, see www.araoengineering.com, the best small block cylinder heads made. Also the most expensive...
Old 07-15-2006, 01:50 AM
  #91  
12 Second Club
 
MadSpeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

Default

Originally Posted by FieroZ34
It is possible to have more than 2 valves per cylinder with an OHV design, see www.araoengineering.com, the best small block cylinder heads made. Also the most expensive...
Do you folks have any idea how old those heads are? Ill tell you they are roughly 19 to 20 years old
Russ was trying to sell them things when I was a kid (and so was he)
As another has stated YOU DONT WANT to deal with him
If anything goes wrong with his products Its YOUR fault
You can PM me for further info as well as the other guy =)
Old 07-17-2006, 12:20 AM
  #92  
Banned
iTrader: (1)
 
FieroZ34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 634
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by MadSpeed
Do you folks have any idea how old those heads are? Ill tell you they are roughly 19 to 20 years old
Russ was trying to sell them things when I was a kid (and so was he)
As another has stated YOU DONT WANT to deal with him
If anything goes wrong with his products Its YOUR fault
You can PM me for further info as well as the other guy =)
I did not know this. However, with a product as unique as that, I would expect any warranty to expire the minute fuel hits the port. Now if there was a problem with the head that can be attributed to poor crafting before installation, I would expect him to stand by it.

However, I still would not think twice on running a set. Those heads will simply devastate and embarrass ANY 2 valve head on the market.
Old 07-17-2006, 02:52 AM
  #93  
Launching!
 
RussStang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by FieroZ34
The SL65 is a brilliant machine. I wouldn't say it signs off at 4000rpm, it pulls hard to 6, but that's about it. Again, the name of MB's game is torque. 740 of it from off idle to 4000rpm in fact. BMW on the other hand uses gearing and torque converters to make up for the lack of torque. Having driven the new M5 (Unimpressed by the acceleration, but that's another story), and our Z3 3.0, gearing makes up for the lack of low end torque. Surprisingly, the Z3 doesn't make very good low end, but only revs to 6500. But below 3500-4000 it isn't very strong. I'd expect a motor with this high end orientation to climb to well over 7000, but yet it's done at 6500. Anwyays, point is, the AMAZING gearing of the 5-speed auto, and the 7-speed manual/auto thingy in the M5, makes up for lack of torque. Punch the gas off the line, and it'll jump as hard as an LS1. The torque converter moves RPM right to 3000-3500, and from there on it runs up to redline, hits the next gear and does it again. The M5 is never in the lower rpm range, except in cruise on the highway. And lay into it a bit, and you don't even feel it, you just watch to RPMs raise right to 5500 or so and it's set to go. The Z3 is a bti more dramatic, but again, you never notice the lack of toqrue because it's never in the lower RPMs. The M3 is a repeat, gearing makes up for lack of low end power.

As for the SL65, well gearing doesn't even matter. The only way I know when it shifts is when the tach moves. Power is LITERALLY the same from 1500rpm to 6000. At least it feels it. It is just an outrage of thrust at any RPM, any gear.

So in summary, if my eyes were closed, I wouldn't notice the difference between a 8000rpm BMW and a 6000rpm MB assuming their acceleration was the same, the only difference being RPm orientation. I will all but guarantee the MB will have no off the line advantage, due to the BMW's amazing trannsmission work. Ok, that's all, a lotta useless info and statation of the obvious there...
The M5 doesn't have a torque converter.
Old 07-17-2006, 02:54 AM
  #94  
Launching!
 
RussStang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Exton, Pennsylvania
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by MadSpeed
Do you folks have any idea how old those heads are? Ill tell you they are roughly 19 to 20 years old
Russ was trying to sell them things when I was a kid (and so was he)
As another has stated YOU DONT WANT to deal with him
If anything goes wrong with his products Its YOUR fault
You can PM me for further info as well as the other guy =)
There is someone over on camaroz28.com that got a set of Arao/Dominion (same thing) heads working on an LT1.

Supposedly it was a pain in the *** though, and a lot of stuff needed to be fabbed.
Old 07-17-2006, 12:41 PM
  #95  
Banned
iTrader: (1)
 
FieroZ34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 634
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by RussStang
The M5 doesn't have a torque converter.
Yah you're correct, I don't know where that came from. I'm not sure how it jumps the RPMs up, probably slipping one of the clutches.
Old 07-18-2006, 05:21 AM
  #96  
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (10)
 
rons 00z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: omaha, NE
Posts: 1,004
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

Default

Originally Posted by FieroZ34
I did not know this. However, with a product as unique as that, I would expect any warranty to expire the minute fuel hits the port. Now if there was a problem with the head that can be attributed to poor crafting before installation, I would expect him to stand by it.

However, I still would not think twice on running a set. Those heads will simply devastate and embarrass ANY 2 valve head on the market.

yeah you guys have no idea. we used to carry his products and just recently had a deal get fucked over because he couldn't produce them. if he could fill the orders we got those heads would be BIG but i guess he didnt want the cash....FYI he just produced some marine heads that flowed over 500cfm and had retardedly high low lift numbers as well. but you have a better chance finding hens teeth than picking up a set
Old 07-18-2006, 06:49 AM
  #97  
TECH Addict
 
chuntington101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,866
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts

Default

is the anyhting stopping a cnc machinest from taking a set and makeing them up him/her self???

Chris.
Old 07-19-2006, 01:14 AM
  #98  
12 Second Club
 
MadSpeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

Default

Originally Posted by FieroZ34
I did not know this. However, with a product as unique as that, I would expect any warranty to expire the minute fuel hits the port. Now if there was a problem with the head that can be attributed to poor crafting before installation, I would expect him to stand by it.

However, I still would not think twice on running a set. Those heads will simply devastate and embarrass ANY 2 valve head on the market.
I can Ashure you that It does not matter what the malfuncion is Once he gets your money he wont talk to you again
I know this by personal experience as well as a bunch of people I know personally that have delt with Russ

you should know I have nothing to gain or loose from any of his sales or no sales I am only looking out for the members interests here

Last edited by MadSpeed; 07-19-2006 at 01:22 AM.
Old 07-19-2006, 01:19 AM
  #99  
12 Second Club
 
MadSpeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

Default

Originally Posted by rons 00z
yeah you guys have no idea. we used to carry his products and just recently had a deal get fucked over because he couldn't produce them. if he could fill the orders we got those heads would be BIG but i guess he didnt want the cash....FYI he just produced some marine heads that flowed over 500cfm and had retardedly high low lift numbers as well. but you have a better chance finding hens teeth than picking up a set
Have you personally seen these alegded flow numbers?
He is also know for his exageration abillitys as well

I personally watched him dyno a VW 1835 he claimed made 250 hp + it was N/A btw
and the next day we heard it seize on the dyno from next door (we had a nice chuckle)
Old 07-20-2006, 09:09 PM
  #100  
On The Tree
 
Street Lethal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Old Bridge "Raceway Park" N.J.
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

I just read some of the posts on this thread in reference to the smoothness, and superiority of the almighty "exotics". Back in the early 90's, GM experimented with the engine known as the "ZR-12". A Ryan Falconer race engine, in which was utilized to determine just how strong the Corvette frame really was (dubbed "Conan the Corvette"). If only this car had seen the light of day. It clearly would have ended any such debate, even up to the present day....





Quick Reply: Benefits of a 32 valve heads



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:18 AM.