Intake TB combo for high revving 347
03-06-2006, 04:14 PM
#21
But, and FI set-up isn;t anywhere as reliable over 90 miles of 160-210 MPH WOT run's. This kind of racing is more like high speed Circle track racing then road course as far as the motor requirements go.
The only reason he is building his motor this way is due to cost constraints. He is not sponsored and has to afford this all out of pocket at this point. So, Dry-sump, can't do it. 400+ Cubic inch motor? Too heavy for the RPM's needed to run 200+. Only other choice for him would be to get an LS7, LS2, or custom sleeved motor for larger Heads.
But, he can't afford bigger heads. SO, at this point, this is what he needs to work with and shoot for the power levels he can get out of it.
The only reason he is building his motor this way is due to cost constraints. He is not sponsored and has to afford this all out of pocket at this point. So, Dry-sump, can't do it. 400+ Cubic inch motor? Too heavy for the RPM's needed to run 200+. Only other choice for him would be to get an LS7, LS2, or custom sleeved motor for larger Heads.
But, he can't afford bigger heads. SO, at this point, this is what he needs to work with and shoot for the power levels he can get out of it.
03-06-2006, 04:22 PM
#22
Richie pretty much nailed it. Not only that but the goal is to be the first stock inched, NA, LS1 powered fbody over 200mph.
Guys have already done it with with big bore motors and a couple (see: 2 or 3) have done if FI. But NO ONE has done it on stock inches. Thats why I need the RPM.
Guys have already done it with with big bore motors and a couple (see: 2 or 3) have done if FI. But NO ONE has done it on stock inches. Thats why I need the RPM.
03-06-2006, 09:17 PM
#24
Do in NA with a small motor is the most expensive way to do it. Especially over a prolonged period. Actually, professional circle track racing on long superspeedways is closest to that.
You can hit 200mph with not much hp, maybe 550-600 at the crank. However, few if any 347s hit that.
A 347 that will live at 8000+ rpm and WOT for 45 minutes will probably cost $20-30k to build. That is typical for a cast iron Saturday night late model stock car motor.
To run those speeds safely will require some downforce. Some money probably is well spent sealing the underside and all seams, flushing the windows, etc.
You can hit 200mph with not much hp, maybe 550-600 at the crank. However, few if any 347s hit that.
A 347 that will live at 8000+ rpm and WOT for 45 minutes will probably cost $20-30k to build. That is typical for a cast iron Saturday night late model stock car motor.
To run those speeds safely will require some downforce. Some money probably is well spent sealing the underside and all seams, flushing the windows, etc.
03-07-2006, 06:48 AM
#25
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Just my opinion from asking this question many times. The gen 3 oiling system when run in wet sump configuration is not going to work in an endurance application at those rpms. The only reason my 434 is going to be 7500rpm and less is because I can not afford to go dry sump at the moment. And that 7500rpms is only in drag racing instances. If I was running endurance applications i'd keep the rpms below 7000. Just my opinion
04-04-2006, 12:18 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by Richiec77
But, and FI set-up isn;t anywhere as reliable over 90 miles of 160-210 MPH WOT run's. This kind of racing is more like high speed Circle track racing then road course as far as the motor requirements go.
The only reason he is building his motor this way is due to cost constraints. He is not sponsored and has to afford this all out of pocket at this point. So, Dry-sump, can't do it. 400+ Cubic inch motor? Too heavy for the RPM's needed to run 200+. Only other choice for him would be to get an LS7, LS2, or custom sleeved motor for larger Heads.
But, he can't afford bigger heads. SO, at this point, this is what he needs to work with and shoot for the power levels he can get out of it.
The only reason he is building his motor this way is due to cost constraints. He is not sponsored and has to afford this all out of pocket at this point. So, Dry-sump, can't do it. 400+ Cubic inch motor? Too heavy for the RPM's needed to run 200+. Only other choice for him would be to get an LS7, LS2, or custom sleeved motor for larger Heads.
But, he can't afford bigger heads. SO, at this point, this is what he needs to work with and shoot for the power levels he can get out of it.
Forced induction is not inherently unreliable in and of itself. There are just more parts now available to fail. This can be dealt with by making sure everything is designed and implemented properly and being rigorous in your pre/post-race checks.
NATASS: What is your current gearing and tire size? What are your desired cruising and top speeds?
04-04-2006, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DAPSUPRSLO
Just my opinion from asking this question many times. The gen 3 oiling system when run in wet sump configuration is not going to work in an endurance application at those rpms. The only reason my 434 is going to be 7500rpm and less is because I can not afford to go dry sump at the moment. And that 7500rpms is only in drag racing instances. If I was running endurance applications i'd keep the rpms below 7000. Just my opinion
I do not at this time think a dry sump is neccessary for survival.If I am able to gather additional information I may change my mind but for now I think this is doable.
I know in Road Racing application the f-body LS1 oil pan has problems controlling oil. You have in this instance sometimes very aggressive left-right transitions causing oil to go up the sides of the pan and possibly unconvering the pick-up as well and getting onto the crank.
I do not think Open Road Racing has alot of intense directional changes. Limiting severe left to right transitions is helpful to keeping the oiling system working properly.
BTW:What RPM are the ASA motors running at? Aren't they wet sump?
04-04-2006, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by NataSS Inc
tire size will be about 25.5-26.5 , gearing is 3.23 cruise speeds will be 180-210
04-04-2006, 02:30 PM
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Well, I have been running simulations since my last post and have seen a few things.
In no particular order:
1) With a cam in the 242/248 109.9 LSA around .600lift (Similar to the largest popular Hyd rollers available) Cam,Heads flowing 350/235@600,Engine @ 3.905/3.62 w/6.125 rod,14:1cr.
A single plane intake is worth about 20hp-80hp@7500 (Victor JR to Sheetmetal custom) over an LS6 intake when measured at the crank. This seems high to me but that's what it says.This assumes a bare minimum of 900cfm TB flow.
Take that for what you will. When testing GENI Small Blocks this software is fairly accurate. I have no back to back data on the accuracy pertaining to GENIII engines
2) It seems you really aren't going to be able to pull a 3.23 gear to 200 with the power band you are looking for.
Assuming 18sq ft of Frontal area, cd of .34 and a lift coefficient of .34 you are running around 7000rpm in 5th @207 MPH (25.5in tire) and needing to produce around 630hp/470tq at this RPM to do so. Weather: 75*f,60%h,800ft elev,Baro29.05
3) At that speed again assuming the previous figured you'd be fighting around 635lbs of drag and experiencing 775lbs of lift(!)
Considering this I would look into louvering the hood and or adding a lip on the front.
Mind you these simulations show what would happen under absolutely ideal conditions.
In no particular order:
1) With a cam in the 242/248 109.9 LSA around .600lift (Similar to the largest popular Hyd rollers available) Cam,Heads flowing 350/235@600,Engine @ 3.905/3.62 w/6.125 rod,14:1cr.
A single plane intake is worth about 20hp-80hp@7500 (Victor JR to Sheetmetal custom) over an LS6 intake when measured at the crank. This seems high to me but that's what it says.This assumes a bare minimum of 900cfm TB flow.
Take that for what you will. When testing GENI Small Blocks this software is fairly accurate. I have no back to back data on the accuracy pertaining to GENIII engines
2) It seems you really aren't going to be able to pull a 3.23 gear to 200 with the power band you are looking for.
Assuming 18sq ft of Frontal area, cd of .34 and a lift coefficient of .34 you are running around 7000rpm in 5th @207 MPH (25.5in tire) and needing to produce around 630hp/470tq at this RPM to do so. Weather: 75*f,60%h,800ft elev,Baro29.05
3) At that speed again assuming the previous figured you'd be fighting around 635lbs of drag and experiencing 775lbs of lift(!)
Considering this I would look into louvering the hood and or adding a lip on the front.
Mind you these simulations show what would happen under absolutely ideal conditions.
