View Poll Results: Which do you feel to be superior in a racecar/track/roadcourse application?
Hydroformed Aluminum Frame
79
62.20%
Hydroformed Steel Frame
48
37.80%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll
Aluminum VS Steel Frame
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 607
Likes: 1
From: Anna, OH
The aluminum frame in the Z06 is quite a bit thicker (4.1mm) than the steel one (3.1mm)--just to address the things you mention. That said, I'd expect the aluminum frame to be harder to live with in terms of road damping, noise, and torsion.
TECH Regular
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
From: Rolesville, NC
One can debait the qualitys of Alum vs Steel.
Current racing rules dictate steel frames.
Phoenix Performance west of Philly has put a steel roll cage into a new Z with lots of special fabrication. SO it can be done, but so far the car has not been approved to be raced in on this side of the ocean. Maybe in 2007 it will get the nod.
Yes a Few C6Z06.r in europe have alunimum frames with roll cages in that were built by Calloway to be raced in the European FIA GT3, or the Gentlemans class, ie over 50 year old drivers.
The C5-R and the C6.R have stock steel hydofoam core steel frame.
the C6R also has a minimum weight so evern if it was lighter, ballest would need to added to get to the min weight.
Technology makes things stonger and ligher, but race rules take 4-5 or so years to catch up.
Here is a great wed site about the C5R and the C6R histories.
http://palmeter.com/
Current racing rules dictate steel frames.
Phoenix Performance west of Philly has put a steel roll cage into a new Z with lots of special fabrication. SO it can be done, but so far the car has not been approved to be raced in on this side of the ocean. Maybe in 2007 it will get the nod.
Yes a Few C6Z06.r in europe have alunimum frames with roll cages in that were built by Calloway to be raced in the European FIA GT3, or the Gentlemans class, ie over 50 year old drivers.
The C5-R and the C6.R have stock steel hydofoam core steel frame.
the C6R also has a minimum weight so evern if it was lighter, ballest would need to added to get to the min weight.
Technology makes things stonger and ligher, but race rules take 4-5 or so years to catch up.
Here is a great wed site about the C5R and the C6R histories.
http://palmeter.com/
Staging Lane
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by LTSpeed
The Z06 uses A6063-T5 4mm thick aluminum. As hydroformed, it's about 97% as rigid as the standard C6 steel frame (though yield is higher). It has pretty poor fatigue resistance, but my guess is it'll never see enough lifecycling to cause problems.
Someone earlier mention 7075 as being much stronger. While that's true, it's probably impossible to hydroform--at least as the technology exists today. Plus, there could be corrosion issues with 7075.
Someone earlier mention 7075 as being much stronger. While that's true, it's probably impossible to hydroform--at least as the technology exists today. Plus, there could be corrosion issues with 7075.
could cast the 70 seriese rather hydro form. but would snap in instant. alum is way stonger when bent into a shape rather in a cast shape or just flat. corrosion is a problem w/ all alum in a coastal town. if any of the copper wiring is touching that frame and the salt water air itll start crapping out on u. i say an alum frame would be best to go w/ light and how hard are u gonna beat on the frame that you would crack it open. as to who ever said steel is easier to repair than alum, you havent ever worked w/ alum then. alum is 10 times easier to repair and work with rather than steel, theres no magnatism to **** w/ ur welds when u get near an end of a open root weld so no blow back like steel. you just need to learn how to manipulate the puddles w/ either the wirefeed or tig processes. after learning that its cake.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 607
Likes: 1
From: Anna, OH
I guess you could form 7075 using superplastic forming, but I don't know anyone outside of Lockheed or Boeing that could do it. If that kind of technology were used in cars, you'd have to totally rethink everything because you could do a lot more than duplicate steel structures in aluminum.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,401
Likes: 0
From: MA
Originally Posted by DavidNJ
One overriding factor: you can weld a cage to steel, not aluminum. And steel is way easier to repair.
Originally Posted by Shooter_Jay
You could weld in an aluminum cage into an aluminum frame I'm sure. I don't know much about welding aluminum though, specifically the large welds it might require.
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The know it all's know it all
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by LTSpeed
The Z06 uses A6063-T5 4mm thick aluminum. As hydroformed, it's about 97% as rigid as the standard C6 steel frame (though yield is higher). It has pretty poor fatigue resistance, but my guess is it'll never see enough lifecycling to cause problems.
Someone earlier mention 7075 as being much stronger. While that's true, it's probably impossible to hydroform--at least as the technology exists today. Plus, there could be corrosion issues with 7075.
Someone earlier mention 7075 as being much stronger. While that's true, it's probably impossible to hydroform--at least as the technology exists today. Plus, there could be corrosion issues with 7075.
TECH Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,866
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by CollinsAutomotive
Thanx for posting about the fatigue resistance. I wonder if the z06 cars will ever have any high milage owners to prove that out. That would be my biggest concern with aluminum. After yrs of racing bicycles i can tell you that watching kids crash with broken head tubes on aluminum bicycles is heart breaking enough I wonder if the same thing would happen with the aluminum frame over time.I would personally go steel and use a chromoly cage and focus on reducing uneeded Mass like combining brackets to do mutliple jobs instead of making multiple brackets. there are ways to keep the weight down.I don't think aluminum would be a good cage locating material as its so much softer then steel personally i feel that the bolts for mounting plates would be very prone to ripping out of their locating holes in the frame.
also on the welding side, i know most (including lotus!!!) bond their chassis not weld them. also you can make a boded chassis stronger thana welded one as they dont "spot" the bonding agent like the do when they spot weld!
thanks Chirs.
The know it all's know it all
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by chuntington101
what about aircraft??? they can be in service 30 years!
also on the welding side, i know most (including lotus!!!) bond their chassis not weld them. also you can make a boded chassis stronger thana welded one as they dont "spot" the bonding agent like the do when they spot weld!
thanks Chirs.
also on the welding side, i know most (including lotus!!!) bond their chassis not weld them. also you can make a boded chassis stronger thana welded one as they dont "spot" the bonding agent like the do when they spot weld!
thanks Chirs.
At that in airframes Welding is avoided on a constant bassis. Welding of aluminum is difficult to do properly and at that offers weld penatration issues and the hardness of the material is also highly suspect. If aluminum is welded it must be annealed and reheattreated to reach it proper strength but that involves a good quality welding proces with a very highly skilled and competent welder.Overall Aluminum outside of cast or forged control arms is pretty much a no brainer for chassis parts. You will find however that overall a well planned chassis out of steel can be as light or lighter then aluminum. this is beginging to be very true in the BMX world where the newer OX platinum grades of steel exceed 4130 chromoly for strength and with proper engineering now weight less then aluminum and are 2x as stronger with a fatigue life some 500% longer. WOuld be nice to see TrueTemper get there OX platinum tubbing NHRA and other snacitoning body approved since it is such an awesome material.
http://www.truetemper.com/performance_tubing/ox.asp
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 607
Likes: 1
From: Anna, OH
Originally Posted by rubin
the z06 isnt the first aluminum car out there. What about lotus and jag and vw, you think that neither of the car manufacturers had thought about fatigue?
Originally Posted by chuntington101
what about aircraft??? they can be in service 30 years!
also on the welding side, i know most (including lotus!!!) bond their chassis not weld them. also you can make a boded chassis stronger thana welded one as they dont "spot" the bonding agent like the do when they spot weld!
thanks Chirs.
also on the welding side, i know most (including lotus!!!) bond their chassis not weld them. also you can make a boded chassis stronger thana welded one as they dont "spot" the bonding agent like the do when they spot weld!
thanks Chirs.
And all those accidents they used to have due to AL service life esp with fatigue due to air pressure differential...
TECH Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,866
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by Cop Car
its simple to weld a steel cage to an aluminum chassis... you bolt steel plates to the aluminum and weld to the plates 
but why bother when you could have the smae strength just by bolting the cage in?
speacking of cages, and the strength of ally, has anyone seen Ruf's intregated roll cage???? im not joking you cant tell the thing has a cage at all (it dosen't have door bars or cross brace for the rear hoop)! really well designed and built. maybe GM could offer one as a option???
Chris.
For a competition road race car, I worry that the aluminum frame would not age well. Not only the repeated stresses from running the car hard on sticky tires, but impacts with FIA curbing, other cars, etc. would stress the aluminum quickly.
But since I am not an engineer, could well be wrong. I doubted an aluminum panhard bar on my F-body, but it works just fine even on big sticky tires and high cornering forces.
But since I am not an engineer, could well be wrong. I doubted an aluminum panhard bar on my F-body, but it works just fine even on big sticky tires and high cornering forces.