Piston Ring install INFO
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2005
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Piston Ring install INFO I am installing rings in the next 2 days. Just wondering if anyone has any links or extra info I can use for my install? The rings are from Total Seal, they were $80 I think. The Stealership wanted $55 per cylinder which would come out to about $300. 
With $300 I could've gotten the Total Seal Gapless set! 
woohoo
I've read all these links that I'll post [enclosure]:
http://stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0510_rings/
http://shbox.com/1/ring_gap.jpg
http://www.hastingsinc.com/service_tips.htm
With $300 I could've gotten the Total Seal Gapless set! woohooI've read all these links that I'll post [enclosure]:
http://stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0510_rings/
http://shbox.com/1/ring_gap.jpg
http://www.hastingsinc.com/service_tips.htm
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2005
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Originally Posted by racer7088
Tighter is better if it is possible and they don't stick for super high rpm. Great rings with the right coatings and the right oil and piston ring lands can be run pretty tight and you will pick up hp at super high rpm. Rings floating just like valvetrain is a problem at 10,000-20,000 rpm!
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2005
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Originally Posted by racer7088
The problem IS the difference in crankcase vs cylinder pressure when using low tension rings plus the LS1 slings tons of oil around with it's crappy drainback and huge lifter clearances when hot.
I've done some gas ported stuff for the street that worked fine but had higher tension oil rings and better 2nd rings as well. The guys didn't care if they replaced the rings every once in a while since they were hard core street racers.
I've done some gas ported stuff for the street that worked fine but had higher tension oil rings and better 2nd rings as well. The guys didn't care if they replaced the rings every once in a while since they were hard core street racers.
Originally Posted by racer7088
ALL of these rings require appropriate hone jobs as well to work the best which is a whole nother story.
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2005
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I'm looking for any help/opinions at all! Its funny how I get more help from an Engine Dealer, like HPE, and less help from the people I bought the rings from (Total Seal).
They have only told me that the ring set I bought is "Steel, which is the best".
Thanks racer7088
They have only told me that the ring set I bought is "Steel, which is the best".
Thanks racer7088
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
Originally Posted by ezrollin
I've heard that ring gaps touching, can pop the crown of the piston off. I heard ring gaps touching is bad. My ring gaps were touching, and I had compression of 80psi on each cylinder.
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
Originally Posted by ezrollin
I'm looking for any help/opinions at all! Its funny how I get more help from an Engine Dealer, like HPE, and less help from the people I bought the rings from (Total Seal).
They have only told me that the ring set I bought is "Steel, which is the best".
Thanks racer7088
They have only told me that the ring set I bought is "Steel, which is the best".
Thanks racer7088
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 207
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Originally Posted by racer7088
Yes, you don't want ring gaps touching ever. That's different than the vertical clearance the ring has in it's land which is built into the piston. Why did you think the rings were butting?
I think they were butting because I was running extremely lean like 18s or more range! I'm sure I never had knock. I had alot of random misfires though. p0300
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Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 207
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Originally Posted by racer7088
Well Keith there at Total Seal is very good but they are always very busy. The rings you have should have a part number. There are steel plasma moly rings and steel rings that are coated or chromed for power adder and extreme hp deals. You should know which ones you have but they all need the right finish and the cylinder should be honed in a real hone like a Sunen so the cylinder is round.
How does a cylinder get out of round condition? From rings not sealing right in different locations? My bore did not have a ridge at all. I did not have to use a ridge reamer to get the piston out. It has 32k miles. I didnt measure the cylinder's round condition though, I thought it would be okay.
Last edited by ezrollin; Jun 27, 2006 at 06:21 PM.
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Let me take a stab at the cylinder roundness part.
I think he's saying you should Hone the cylinders with a Torque plate to ensure maxium roundness. Plus the machine he's talking about uses different types of stones to produce the correct cross-hatch pattern that will seal and seat the type of rings you have best.
How cylinders become out of round...Heat, Core shift and ,especially in your case, different thrust angles and pressure from the rings being tight. If you were running that lean, then the extra heat could cause the cylinder to shift a little and heat in areas of less stregnth can cause the material to expand and contract at different rates. Kind of creates a ripple effect. Core shift due to the design of the AL block and iron liners. The rings because they were touching and have to apply the pressure somewhere...Outwards. A thin ring will bend and bulg differently. Can't get to a 100% perfect circle especially with a cut/gap in it.
Honing with a Torque plate with the proper stones in a very accurate machine will straighten the hole up and make it more true. That means that the pistons and rings will seal better.
Am I on Track Erik?
I think he's saying you should Hone the cylinders with a Torque plate to ensure maxium roundness. Plus the machine he's talking about uses different types of stones to produce the correct cross-hatch pattern that will seal and seat the type of rings you have best.
How cylinders become out of round...Heat, Core shift and ,especially in your case, different thrust angles and pressure from the rings being tight. If you were running that lean, then the extra heat could cause the cylinder to shift a little and heat in areas of less stregnth can cause the material to expand and contract at different rates. Kind of creates a ripple effect. Core shift due to the design of the AL block and iron liners. The rings because they were touching and have to apply the pressure somewhere...Outwards. A thin ring will bend and bulg differently. Can't get to a 100% perfect circle especially with a cut/gap in it.
Honing with a Torque plate with the proper stones in a very accurate machine will straighten the hole up and make it more true. That means that the pistons and rings will seal better.
Am I on Track Erik?
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
The stock aluminum blocks cylinders are always sort of out of round. It just happens with heat and stress and time I guess. They never clean up that well as opposed to the iron blocks that clean up in the hone almost instantly.
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
Originally Posted by Richiec77
Let me take a stab at the cylinder roundness part.
I think he's saying you should Hone the cylinders with a Torque plate to ensure maxium roundness. Plus the machine he's talking about uses different types of stones to produce the correct cross-hatch pattern that will seal and seat the type of rings you have best.
How cylinders become out of round...Heat, Core shift and ,especially in your case, different thrust angles and pressure from the rings being tight. If you were running that lean, then the extra heat could cause the cylinder to shift a little and heat in areas of less stregnth can cause the material to expand and contract at different rates. Kind of creates a ripple effect. Core shift due to the design of the AL block and iron liners. The rings because they were touching and have to apply the pressure somewhere...Outwards. A thin ring will bend and bulg differently. Can't get to a 100% perfect circle especially with a cut/gap in it.
Honing with a Torque plate with the proper stones in a very accurate machine will straighten the hole up and make it more true. That means that the pistons and rings will seal better.
Am I on Track Erik?
I think he's saying you should Hone the cylinders with a Torque plate to ensure maxium roundness. Plus the machine he's talking about uses different types of stones to produce the correct cross-hatch pattern that will seal and seat the type of rings you have best.
How cylinders become out of round...Heat, Core shift and ,especially in your case, different thrust angles and pressure from the rings being tight. If you were running that lean, then the extra heat could cause the cylinder to shift a little and heat in areas of less stregnth can cause the material to expand and contract at different rates. Kind of creates a ripple effect. Core shift due to the design of the AL block and iron liners. The rings because they were touching and have to apply the pressure somewhere...Outwards. A thin ring will bend and bulg differently. Can't get to a 100% perfect circle especially with a cut/gap in it.
Honing with a Torque plate with the proper stones in a very accurate machine will straighten the hole up and make it more true. That means that the pistons and rings will seal better.
Am I on Track Erik?
Cool. Glad all the reading has paid off somewhat.
I do need to pick your brain more one day. I still remember the conversation on the phone about...crap 8 months ago? Oiling and the iron block. Convinced me to go iron for sure.
Daniel@SQR or I will be hitting you up soon on the 408 engine for the Camaro.
I do need to pick your brain more one day. I still remember the conversation on the phone about...crap 8 months ago? Oiling and the iron block. Convinced me to go iron for sure.
Daniel@SQR or I will be hitting you up soon on the 408 engine for the Camaro.
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
Well thanks and I look forward to it Rich! The irons are much nicer to work with I can tell you that anyday. Daniel is a great guy and he runs a very good shop (SQR) up there. I personally drove Brandons car up there that they tuned and it ran perfect and it had a decent sized cam in it and still drove like stock!
Originally Posted by Richiec77
Cool. Glad all the reading has paid off somewhat.
I do need to pick your brain more one day. I still remember the conversation on the phone about...crap 8 months ago? Oiling and the iron block. Convinced me to go iron for sure.
Daniel@SQR or I will be hitting you up soon on the 408 engine for the Camaro.
I do need to pick your brain more one day. I still remember the conversation on the phone about...crap 8 months ago? Oiling and the iron block. Convinced me to go iron for sure.
Daniel@SQR or I will be hitting you up soon on the 408 engine for the Camaro.
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
EZ,
I don't understand some of what you are writing but the cylinders need to be honed right and with a TQ plate for the right bore geometry and the right surface finish for those rings or you will have substandard results. This involves the right equipment and right people that know what they are doing. You can probably do some weird hand hone and if the thing was running alright before it will probably run all right when you are through but thats about it. At least the iron blocks don't go out of round that easily.
I don't understand some of what you are writing but the cylinders need to be honed right and with a TQ plate for the right bore geometry and the right surface finish for those rings or you will have substandard results. This involves the right equipment and right people that know what they are doing. You can probably do some weird hand hone and if the thing was running alright before it will probably run all right when you are through but thats about it. At least the iron blocks don't go out of round that easily.
