Fast 90 Intake porting..
02-06-2007, 02:38 AM
#141
This thread has ended up exactly where I speculated it might....nowhere.
Like similar situations that have played out before. You guys that were around when the AFR 205's were first released to the public know what Im talking about....with their small port volume and and only 300 CFM's of airflow what could they possibly do to set the bar higher....after all, it's the Internet, and everyone has a 320-340 CFM head....what is AFR thinking?
Back to the matter at hand.....I would be very enlightened if someone could please quote me on the 1-2 HP bullshit because I cant wait to see it.
I have helped dozens of forum members and private individuals alike with solid gains from the install of my ported FAST set-up. What do they usually see....about 20-25 over an LS6/78 set-up....25-30 over an LS1 or LS2 stocker. If I had the time I could look around and find some independent posts to back my claims. Perhaps someone else can or a few of the people I did help could possibly chime in.
The manifold work I do is extensive reshaping to the exits of the FAST intake (going back some 4-6 inches up the runners) thats more involved and time consuming than any of these "experts" want to give any credit for. Ask the more respected veterans of this board about my work and they will set the record straight.
And for the record the work I perform does exactly what I tell anyone potentially interested....about 10 more than a stocker out of the box. But here's the rub....out of the box is not consistant....its a 3 piece design and as such has many area's that can cause some mismatch and create lips and other issues that are disruptive to airflow....some intakes are worse than others out of the box therefore some may see a little less while others might gain a little more. Its kind of a crapshoot....I would say the average gains from a stock FAST 90 install is in the 10-15 area....most of the people I have helped average in the 20-25 area....a few slightly higher.
What do most people pay for a 90/90 set-up (unported)....easily over a grand...plus a tune perhaps....cost per HP....about $100
I charge $500 for my porting services....yes, more than most but IMO the quality of the execution and the time I have invested in R&D to achieve the results justify the price of admission. Whether you agree or not is your opinion and nothing more. The intake I provide however does exactly what I say....install after install proven time and again. Back to the math....add $500 to the costs already discussed above and guess what....your cost per pony just went down to about $75 and you have more of them. Is that cheap power?.....certainly not, but is it on par or even less than some other mods when your running out of options to get more.
Anyone thats been modding cars long enough knows once the easy money has been covered (cam, airbox, headers, etc,) it costs alot more money and you usually see a lot less gains.....welcome to the hobby. Figure out how much that headswap netted you when the smoke cleared....wanna bet it is at least $75 a pony as well.
I wasnt even going to bother posting in here regardless of the results but when I see lies and other BS getting shoveled at the expense and confusion of those actually waiting for results....well that **** just doesn't fly very well with me.
If what I charge is too rich for your blood and you feel no way in hell is it worth it then dont do business with me...its very simple. Some people are willing to pay for quality and are willing to pay for the peace of mind of knowing the job was done right. They dont have the luxury or time to grind a hole in the first one they try. I have seen some hackery people sent me to "fix" that of course all fall under the moniker of a "ported FAST".....well sought of.
Lastly, when paying good money for a product or a service people usually expect alot (I know I do).....Have you seen ONE person I have helped in the last three years complain about my work, the results, my customer service skills, or anything else for that matter???.....I didnt think so.
Rant off as they say....
Tony M.
Like similar situations that have played out before. You guys that were around when the AFR 205's were first released to the public know what Im talking about....with their small port volume and and only 300 CFM's of airflow what could they possibly do to set the bar higher....after all, it's the Internet, and everyone has a 320-340 CFM head....what is AFR thinking?
Back to the matter at hand.....I would be very enlightened if someone could please quote me on the 1-2 HP bullshit because I cant wait to see it.
I have helped dozens of forum members and private individuals alike with solid gains from the install of my ported FAST set-up. What do they usually see....about 20-25 over an LS6/78 set-up....25-30 over an LS1 or LS2 stocker. If I had the time I could look around and find some independent posts to back my claims. Perhaps someone else can or a few of the people I did help could possibly chime in.
The manifold work I do is extensive reshaping to the exits of the FAST intake (going back some 4-6 inches up the runners) thats more involved and time consuming than any of these "experts" want to give any credit for. Ask the more respected veterans of this board about my work and they will set the record straight.
And for the record the work I perform does exactly what I tell anyone potentially interested....about 10 more than a stocker out of the box. But here's the rub....out of the box is not consistant....its a 3 piece design and as such has many area's that can cause some mismatch and create lips and other issues that are disruptive to airflow....some intakes are worse than others out of the box therefore some may see a little less while others might gain a little more. Its kind of a crapshoot....I would say the average gains from a stock FAST 90 install is in the 10-15 area....most of the people I have helped average in the 20-25 area....a few slightly higher.
What do most people pay for a 90/90 set-up (unported)....easily over a grand...plus a tune perhaps....cost per HP....about $100
I charge $500 for my porting services....yes, more than most but IMO the quality of the execution and the time I have invested in R&D to achieve the results justify the price of admission. Whether you agree or not is your opinion and nothing more. The intake I provide however does exactly what I say....install after install proven time and again. Back to the math....add $500 to the costs already discussed above and guess what....your cost per pony just went down to about $75 and you have more of them. Is that cheap power?.....certainly not, but is it on par or even less than some other mods when your running out of options to get more.
Anyone thats been modding cars long enough knows once the easy money has been covered (cam, airbox, headers, etc,) it costs alot more money and you usually see a lot less gains.....welcome to the hobby. Figure out how much that headswap netted you when the smoke cleared....wanna bet it is at least $75 a pony as well.
I wasnt even going to bother posting in here regardless of the results but when I see lies and other BS getting shoveled at the expense and confusion of those actually waiting for results....well that **** just doesn't fly very well with me.
If what I charge is too rich for your blood and you feel no way in hell is it worth it then dont do business with me...its very simple. Some people are willing to pay for quality and are willing to pay for the peace of mind of knowing the job was done right. They dont have the luxury or time to grind a hole in the first one they try. I have seen some hackery people sent me to "fix" that of course all fall under the moniker of a "ported FAST".....well sought of.
Lastly, when paying good money for a product or a service people usually expect alot (I know I do).....Have you seen ONE person I have helped in the last three years complain about my work, the results, my customer service skills, or anything else for that matter???.....I didnt think so.
Rant off as they say....
Tony M.
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 02-06-2007 at 02:45 AM.
02-06-2007, 03:42 AM
#142
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To me if your making 990 rwhp and your goal was 1k. Will it be worth it if you didnt get it and fell short of your goal? Some people say yes and some say no. Im the type that will go the extra mile to get the intake ported to help achieve my goal. You cannot put a low ball price on quality.
02-06-2007, 05:01 AM
#143
To me, and I have admittedly been researching this for some time, the advantage of the ported unit over the out of the box is the consistent gains all the way through the RPM curve. If you review some of the early FAST threads from when it first came out, people were happy "they didn't lose anything down low" and gained some peak HP. Now, with the ported units, the gains are consistent through the RPM range and the peaks are a little higher. You guys focus too much on the top number, you need to focus on the entire curve and that is where I believe you will see the advantage of a well ported FAST.
02-06-2007, 06:58 AM
#144
Guess I was mistaken. No need to show ignorance with the cussing Tony. It was a friend who said he talked to you about it. Not sure where ANYBODY got the idea that it was posted anywhere. But I'll be talking to that friend about his claim, that's for sure.
Last edited by N4cer; 02-06-2007 at 07:47 AM.
02-06-2007, 07:44 AM
#145
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Holy ****, was trying to do a test to help folks out and the thread went no where fast! The test car we were using is having issues, my car is down waiting on a cam, and it is hard to find others willing to beat on their cars on the dyno. It will happen and I'll post results when it does.
As for the Mamo intake, the intake looks GREAT! I'm sure it will make more power than the stock fast, it is the how much that I'm wanting to see. No disrespect from me Tony, and I hope you don't see it that way. When your intake gains exactly what you say it does then everyone will know for sure from a independant source that yours flat out WORKS and maybe boost yours sells some.
As for the Mamo intake, the intake looks GREAT! I'm sure it will make more power than the stock fast, it is the how much that I'm wanting to see. No disrespect from me Tony, and I hope you don't see it that way. When your intake gains exactly what you say it does then everyone will know for sure from a independant source that yours flat out WORKS and maybe boost yours sells some.
02-06-2007, 09:21 AM
#146
Originally Posted by N4cer
Guess I was mistaken. No need to show ignorance with the cussing Tony. It was a friend who said he talked to you about it. Not sure where ANYBODY got the idea that it was posted anywhere. But I'll be talking to that friend about his claim, that's for sure.
That said, perhaps you didn't give much thought to what you posted, but IMO you should have because everything gets blown out of proportion. Within an hour of you posting people were starting to raise hell over it.
I will try and round up a few links later on today to show independent test results backing exactly what I claim....this "test" (concerning my work at least) has essentially been done already with many independent results (the best kind) to back my claims....it's readily available by using the search function for those willing to invest the time to look.
John, regarding the actual testing in question here I know alot of people wanted to see these results and I encourage those involved to complete the testing if possible, but be prepared to answer alot of questions (from other board members) when the results come out about the testing and how it was performed so all of the manifolds involved had a fair shake. Engine temp at the start of each run should be exactly the same....all of them should be optimized for their respective best A/F ratio (you may see small differences). Its not an easy task and does take alot of dyno time and patience if done properly. However, when looking for such small gains and differences, all of the test parameters need to be kept exactly the same.
Gotta get ready for work....catch you guys later.
Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 02-06-2007 at 09:26 AM.
02-06-2007, 10:37 AM
#147
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tony, this **** (even what all i said last night) was not directed at you. i have a "ported" fast intake from a MAJOR shop, they charged $150 for and it may have taken me 20 min. to do the exact same job.
02-06-2007, 10:48 AM
#148
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John i apreciate the effort your putting in trying to test these out for us. Like Tony said it's not an easy job and will be very time consuming and in the end there will still be those who pick you apart, because after all it is the internet. but just know that some of us really do apreciate this and look forward to results. much thanks to Tony for chiming in. lets get this thread back on track.im using my stock FAST 90/nw90 for now. 
02-06-2007, 10:57 AM
#149
Originally Posted by SSwanner
tony, this **** (even what all i said last night) was not directed at you. i have a "ported" fast intake from a MAJOR shop, they charged $150 for and it may have taken me 20 min. to do the exact same job.
02-06-2007, 11:06 AM
#150
Originally Posted by SSwanner
tony, this **** (even what all i said last night) was not directed at you. i have a "ported" fast intake from a MAJOR shop, they charged $150 for and it may have taken me 20 min. to do the exact same job.
But the reality it thats not the case....and much like ported heads....some will pick up good numbers....other may pick up even more, but some might make the same or even less power than stock. The FAST intake is no different....properly ported it is a much more effective piece....improperly ported and you just paid for the luxury of losing power over an out of the box stocker.
I helped a shop awhile back with an AFR 205 package....heads, cam, etc., etc. (it was his first time trying an AFR headed package) and when the smoke cleared he made good power but a little less power than I had hoped for. I started questioning a few things and found out he had a ported intake (FAST) on this combo but knew I hadn't helped him with one (yet)....long story short I encouraged him to swap on a stocker just for ***** and grins and the car picked up 10-15 RWHP....note this was swapping to a stock FAST intake, NOT one of my ported units. The original intake was ported by a major company as well....needless to say I usually handle all of this particular shops manifold work when they have a customer looking for all the money from a combination (nothing wrong with a stock FAST....it still makes good power over an LS6/LS2/LS1 stocker).
Anyway....just a quick story I felt was worth sharing.
Tony
02-06-2007, 11:40 AM
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I wasnt going to reply on this one, because im not a big Ls1 guy on here, BUT what i will say is, i bet tony may or may not remember me but, his reputation should not be in question at all. I have done buisness with this man years ago when he worked at a MAJOR engine building facility, and he has a great reputation. The guy knows his ****, far more than alot of us put together. Hes been in this buisness a long time, and now works at a major cyl head place, designing, testing and flowing cyl heads and intakes.
So when he gives out advise, you better believe it gonna be good advise well resarched and tested, and if its something you cant afford, well you have every right to go where you want, but i will say this, i could have spent alot more money over the years in racing on engines, especially money wasted, on the wrong parts. But when i called tony and got his advise, it always saved me mony in the long run, because i didnt spend it on something cheaper, and got marginal results. I spent the money once and didnt spend it on trial and error.
So when he gives out advise, you better believe it gonna be good advise well resarched and tested, and if its something you cant afford, well you have every right to go where you want, but i will say this, i could have spent alot more money over the years in racing on engines, especially money wasted, on the wrong parts. But when i called tony and got his advise, it always saved me mony in the long run, because i didnt spend it on something cheaper, and got marginal results. I spent the money once and didnt spend it on trial and error.
02-06-2007, 01:29 PM
#152
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I'm sure I'll get a million guestions on the test, but that is fine. I will have datalogs to back my test if needed, as each test will be the same engine temp, and I'll adjust A/F on each if needed to assure we are apples to apples. Not really trying to prove or disprove anything, just offer back to back, same day, same dyno, no bs results for the ls1 community.
Now we just gotta get our test subject back to peak condition and beat on it for a day!
Now we just gotta get our test subject back to peak condition and beat on it for a day!
02-06-2007, 04:22 PM
#153
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this is a very interesting thread. i would love to see these results. i am going to go back to the dyno with my vette it has a 408ci with afr 225 unported and a 90 fast unported and ls2 tb it put down 501.7 rwhp and 490.6 tq. on pump gas(93) with the cut outs closed through 2.5 corsa cat back full mufflers . i nvr dynoed with the cutouts open. so i just got a vic jr intake and i plan on going back and redynoing with just changing the intake im curious to see the power curve and peak # difference. im sure some of you would like to see the #'s.
02-06-2007, 04:47 PM
#154
I'm happy with my Mamo ported FAST. I stated before that I think Tony has more port time and R&D than the average shop or any other person for that matter. My ported 241 heads with a little 224/228 581/588 110lsa cam made 452rwhp with a 12 bolt rear with 4.30 gears and a Denny's nitrous ready drivshaft.My gears ,rear and driveshaft are hurting my numbers a little but thats the way I run the car,a stock rear with stock gears and stock driveshaft would give you better #'s but this car is built more for the track. Before the intake swap my car put down 424rwhp. My only changes was a header swap and the FAST 90/90 and the retune.I can't give all the credit to the FAST cause I also changed to a stepped header and I have to give alot of credit to Don Kinder (slowhawk) on the tune but I do know that without the ported FAST my numbers would not be that good. Before the Mamo ported fast the car went 11.5 , after the FAST the car went 11.2 untuned . Next outing the car should go 11.0-10.8 NA since I picked up alot from the retune. So you could say I am a Happy customer of Tony's
02-06-2007, 05:27 PM
#155
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Originally Posted by vettenuts
To me, and I have admittedly been researching this for some time, the advantage of the ported unit over the out of the box is the consistent gains all the way through the RPM curve. If you review some of the early FAST threads from when it first came out, people were happy "they didn't lose anything down low" and gained some peak HP. Now, with the ported units, the gains are consistent through the RPM range and the peaks are a little higher. You guys focus too much on the top number, you need to focus on the entire curve and that is where I believe you will see the advantage of a well ported FAST.
I too am interested in the ported vs unported results. I did some join blending and filled some of the joint chasm's in with epoxy to get the whole port smooth without doing any reshaping. No idea if it makes any differnce, but I feel better knowing I have made mine customised
02-06-2007, 06:03 PM
#156
Originally Posted by ringram
Dude go with the fast. I wasn't sure myself, but with nothing but the fast intake change my g/cyl of air went from 0.86 to 0.95 at WOT. I know your setup and cam is similar to mine. I followed Tony's (and others) advise on the Fast and am very pleased with the results. Would definitely recommend it to anyone with mods.
I too am interested in the ported vs unported results. I did some join blending and filled some of the joint chasm's in with epoxy to get the whole port smooth without doing any reshaping. No idea if it makes any differnce, but I feel better knowing I have made mine customised
I too am interested in the ported vs unported results. I did some join blending and filled some of the joint chasm's in with epoxy to get the whole port smooth without doing any reshaping. No idea if it makes any differnce, but I feel better knowing I have made mine customised
Interesting seeing you are running the Ford SVO injectors, I just picked up a low mileage used set in anticipation of eventually going to a FAST. My DTE rear just showed up today, so I have to keep my better half calm for a while if you know what I mean
02-06-2007, 07:28 PM
#157
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Originally Posted by ringram
I too am interested in the ported vs unported results. I did some join blending and filled some of the joint chasm's in with epoxy to get the whole port smooth without doing any reshaping. No idea if it makes any differnce, but I feel better knowing I have made mine customised
02-06-2007, 08:40 PM
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ok - I just dropped of my TSP PRC 5.3 2.5R heads, FAST 90 and PTM 90 to Late Model Engines here in Houston to have the FAST ported! Bryan mentioned that they have seen between 5-15 rwhp on porting, and that it all depends upon how much they match up with the heads they are going on.
The way I understand it is this: Say you have heads with 1 size of opening and the FAST intake doesn't match up too well with it. You may gain 10rwhp out of the box, but 10 more with good port work. BUT lets say they do match well out of the box with your heads, and they gain 15rwhp out of the box but only 5 out of porting. That is what it sounds like to me.
The way I understand it is this: Say you have heads with 1 size of opening and the FAST intake doesn't match up too well with it. You may gain 10rwhp out of the box, but 10 more with good port work. BUT lets say they do match well out of the box with your heads, and they gain 15rwhp out of the box but only 5 out of porting. That is what it sounds like to me.