Hello guys,

Just back from Christmas Vacation hope every one had as nice a time as I did on Christmas.

Low RPM Torque is a good thing! It makes a car nice to drive. It makes it sound like sleeper engine, it gets better mileage ................. But if you full on drag racer, it is probably not going to help you. But if your a street racer, well, I think the average guy will like the valves. I am an off road racer and I love them, if you find yourself out of shape, or missing a shift .......... well, no panic, you got the torque you need!

Someone mentioned testing on a spintron, the spintron, well, they are really meant for the high RPM testing, and we have done some spintron testing ............. but the omnivalves are not at this time being made for the really high RPM engines. One of our "engineers" is convinced that there is a high rpm market, and that it will come someday soon, but first our giant increases in low end torque is where we are focusing, for now.

Now "LTSpeed" with all do respect and trying to be as nice as possible, me being a company spokesman, ......... LTSpeed, you are listed as a "Tech Enthusiast" and you say there is ............ not one thing on the omnivalves web site that makes any sense?

Does it not make sense that eliminating reversion from valve overlap is ........... a good idea?

Does it not make sense that on compression overlap you can regain much if not all of your lost displacement? Increasing your effective compression ratio.

Both of the above omnivalves do and no other variable cam system does. Because they very the cam, we vary the valve, or better said the Cylinder vs intake manifold pressure varies the valves.

Frankly if you don't understand this simple innovation then you should remove the tech part from your "tech Enthusiast" ................ Or maybe replace tech with blind?

Happy New Year to all ..................... especially to LTSpeed!

Mike @ omnivalves

 

I do not understand what compression overlap is?
And what lost displacement are you talking about?

I have read lot of well written tech articles here on LS1tech and the posts seem to be a little off par with the better posts on LS1tech.

 

With all due respect, Mike you should stick to selling and leave the technical talk to your "engineers". There is no overlap on the compression stroke because both valves are closed. Unless you're talking about something else and just used the wrong term. The only way to "lose displacement", if you'd ever use such a term , is when a hole goes out aka dropping a cylinder. Valve overlap isn't anywhere near as bad as you and some others make it out be. Oh and street racers will benefit from this? I think not, these valves you're trying to sell will not allow a driver to recover from a missed shift or any other "low RPM situation". More times than not a street race is won on the big end because it's harder to hook on a bare asphalt road. So you're going to have to try another marketing lie. Fun to drive? Low RPM torque? Nearly every mid to large displacement engine has or potentially has with conventional components to build enough torque to smoke the drive tires. Every selling point you're using is overrated, and only appeals, I think, to those who are fairly new to the performance of internal combustion engines. Those who know or even marginally know the concept on producing power realize that this is just another high priced gimmick that looks good on paper and possibly works on small displacement Low RPM capable engines. A 6000 RPM 5.7L V8 doesn't need what you're claiming. Even engines with half that displacement produce decent torque numbers because of 4 valve configurations, intake and head designs and camshaft profiles. All this can be done with a lighter, less expensive component.

I don't know crap about Off Road, rock climbing component selection so I can't speak from there. Maybe it would be beneficial. But from my gathered knowledge I'd just build a larger engine designed with a broad powerband in mind if I wanted more low RPM torque when starting from the ground up. If the vehicle/engine is already built then I'd consider smaller port volume cylinder heads, dual plane intakes, camshaft profiles, etc. before the omni valve. That's just me though.

Adrenaline Z, thanks for the backup. What's your take on this? We should ask the gurus about this design. I've learned alot from what I have gotten from Darin.

To the original poster, try posting this over on speedtalk and see what kind of response you get.

 

DarricksZ28, you make very good points. I think you know a thing or two about IC engines

Also, we have to give Omnivalves some credit, who knows, maybe with some new metals or alloys, it might be a viable option in the future for high performance applications.

 

The only thing I can gather from those terms are as follows:

Compression Overlap may be the maniplulation of a compression wave
during the overlap period. This may help reversion at low RPM use and
prevent exhaust gas from entering the chamber once the pressure in the
cylinder goes below atmospheric (Near TDC when both valves are open,
and the intake pulse is weak).

That's a shot in the dark, but with the info presented, it is all I can come up
with.

As for lost displacement:

You can only begin compression once both valves are closed. Depending
on when IVC occurs (if late), the lower RPM torque suffers. If these valves
happen to stop the intake charge from backing up before the intake valve
shuts, then you have gained some DCR and 'effective displacement'.

The displacement is gained because the piston begins to compress the
mixture sooner in the crank rotation. Think about how much cylinder volume
is lost when the piston moves toward TDC on the compression stroke and
the intake valve is late closing.

I'd like to know the proper explaination of "compression overlap". I have never
come across that term before.

Darin is truely a good guy. He seems like the type to give you the shirt off of
his back. He's a wealth of information and willing to teach the little guys
like us in his spare time.

 

You're absolutely right. It is possible in the future with substantially lighter alloys/materials and more research. It's just that when I browsed the site I saw outrageous claims (ex.-up to 500% increase in low end torque) without any true evidence in the form of hard data. I also saw more than a few marketing tricks that gave a red flag to me that this is more about money than actual helping the enthusiast. This is the basis of my interest in this thread. I don't want those novices reading this to start thinking this is a blessing from the torque gods, you know. There are enough products on the market with unsubstantiated and/or inflated claims.

 

Adrenaline Z, I've never thought about that way. I've always understood "displacement" as the volume of the cylinder at BDC, and not as a dynamic variable that can be manipulated with valve events. My understanding is that the only way to "lose displacement" would be to lop off a cylinder, reduce stroke, etc.

I was curious and searched speedtalk, because when I don't have an answer for something I can 99.9% of the time find the answer here. Well......
SEMA Show Snake Oil

Seems as though the gurus have already visited this subject!

 

I wont believe a thing until I see a dyno report. If anything, this valve might
find a home in a low RPM diesel engine.

I can't imagine this design working in a performance application. Even the
average daily driver would likely lose power once installing a set of these
valves.

To be fair, I'll wait for some conclusive long term testing and data from credible
sources.

 

You and I both.

 

Personally, I like companies that create a product for a marketplace as opposed to creating a marketplace for a product.

 

[QUOTE=DarricksZ28]With all due respect, Mike you should stick to selling and leave the technical talk to your "engineers". There is no overlap on the compression stroke because both valves are closed.


Well, it is a bit difficult but none the less I am a company spokesman so. Darrick, if you take a look at a cam chart, you will see that the intake valve starts closing before BDC and is only partly closed at BDC, in many engines the intake valve goes fully closed with the piston as much as 45% up on the compression stroke. So, you are wrong about the intake valve being closed on the compression stroke.

Valves operate on a cam lobe the lobe is in sink with the crank, will the valves are moving open and close, the pistons are moving. But not so with the omnivalves. Omnivalves can move with any movement of the cam or crank. So........... you can regain some of the lost displacement from "compression overlap"

I will respond to your other remarks in another post here in a little while.

Thanks Mike @ omnivalves

 

Next, Valve overlap, well it is pretty bad, most new cars are pretty much doing away with it, older bigger motors need it but alot of newer cars care more about the low end troque. So, use omnivalves and you can have both, build your cam with a lot of over lap then, when you need it it is there and when you don't need it, OmniValves cover up all the negitive aspects of valve overlap, that is why we can idle a big cam motor at 200 RPM ......

Street racers, like cars that sound stock, not all but some serious street racers like "sleeper" cars.

Now why all the hostility? ..... calling me a liar? I am not even selling the valves, I am giving them away at this point just to get more experiance with their potential?

In off road racing, I really like them and rock crawlers like them as well. They are very user friendly.

I would be more then happy to address any serious questions you have about the omnivalves, but please there is no need to call me a liar.

Thanks Mike @ omnivalves

 

I'd like to know the proper explaination of "compression overlap". I have never
come across that term before.


You will find the term defined on the omnivalve web site under FAQ


You can also find it in a few very technical engine design books, but I can't link you to one.

It is the time that the pistion is going up on compression and the intake valve is still open. compression overlap


Thanks for you interest in OmniValves Mike @ omnivalves.com

 

How the hell you move the valve??? hydraulic,pneumatic,electrical?? whats the deal?

 

We have dyno testing, and it is very impressive, I have not put on the web site and I need to do.......... will try to do so soon.

We do have some problems with dyno testing all that the omnivalves can do.

We want to do full throttle testing at low RPMs like 300 RPM and even 200 RPM and that is proving difficult to have done, it has to be a direct coupled AC DYNO and it has to be fairly large. We have those test on the drawing board but probably a few months off.

Thanks for you interest in OmniValves Mike @ www.omnivalves.com

 

So I'm wrong? The intake valve remains open up to 45% of the piston's travel up the bore? Thereby "pushing" the charge air back into the intake tract? So depending on the engine up to almost half of the compression stroke is lost due to reversion? Fine. You believe that, and I'll stick with what I already know. I'm not going to get into an internet pissing contest with anyone. So say what you want and I'll leave you alone.

To everyone reading this, I'm not out to flame or belittle anyone and nor do I know every single thing about the internal combustion engine, or even close. What I do know is that every thing that is proposed by this site and it's representative is only sourced at the said site. Nowhere outside of said site have I seen or heard of such claims. Also in my experience with aftermarket components, if it sounds too good to be true then it probably isn't so true. Taking a component such as a valve and saying that it can improve anything by XX-XXX% is a bold statement. To make this statement without posting factual hard data to reinforce this claim is more than enough to disregard said statement as having zero credibility. Also, as I have stated before to idle an engine that far below its spec reduces oil pressure and creates substantial wear without major modifications to the lubrication system. Not to mention, the engines in question are 99% of the time utilizing hydraulic lifters. Also that low idle reduces charge air velocity and would hurt throttle response in my opinion. Furthermore, comparisons of electric motors to this "omnivalve motor" is ludricous. Electric motors generate power in a true linear fashion that 4 stroke gasoline engines, at the present time, cannot duplicate or even come close to. Well have any of you seen video of this engine run? And idle at 300RPM? Have you seen any dyno charts? The charts exist according to the representative, but he's haphazardly forgotten and/or hasn't gotten around to posting them on the site. I didn't see the "cam chart" that was mentioned. I browse with Firefox so maybe that is the problem there, I don't know. This subject was covered on speedtalk, weeks before I stumbled across this thread. I found it there today, and my posts mirrored those on speedtalk suprisingly. A site that is frequented by the best professionals in the gasoline engine performance realm. None are better than those there. Granted they were a little more forgiving than I, mainly because they have more than triple knowledge that I have. Lastly, when I see big numbers, catchy slogans/names, isolated terms/definitions, claims that contradict conventional tried and true techniques/wisdom, and I don't see hard unmanipulated data to support such claims then it makes me

I apologize for the lengthy post and will refrain from posting anymore of my moronic tales in this thread. Thank you and goodnight.

 

OK, sorry ............ let me try again.

The OmniValves are just on the intake valve.

(If you wanted to use the same idea on the exhaust valve you would build the exhaust valve seat to move toward an open exhaust valve to stop the exhaust gas from pulsating backwards into the cylinder.)

OmniValves act as a normal valve when the flow is from the intake manifold into the cylinder.

When the flow is normal the OmniRing is seated against the body of the OmniValve and again flow is normal as with any other intake valve.

"If the flow wants to go counter" to flow from the cylinder back into the intake, the OmniValve ring reacts to this "counter flow" stopping it. This flow is commonly called reversion. OmniValves stop both types of reversion.

There are two types of reversion, exhaust gas reversion and compression reversion.

Valve overlap is where the intake is starting to open while the exhaust valve is still closing, but not yet closed. This is done for two reasons. 1. At higher RPMs this will help scavenge the cylinder, creating a low pressure area helping fill the cylinder
2. Because the automotive engineer/cam grinder can't close the exhaust valve or open the intake valve as quick as the would like to.

Valve overlap can cause exhaust gas reversion, into the intake manifold.

The omnivalves, OmniRing will stay against the valve seat when the intake valve starts to open, during valve overlap, if the pressure is higher in the cylinder. This prevents exhaust gas reversion.

Compression overlap causes, compression reversion.

Compression overlap is where the intake valve is open (but going closed) while the piston is going up on compression. This is done only because the automotive engineer / cam grinder can't close the intake valve fast as they would like to.

The OmniValve body follows the cam ramp as it is locked with the crank/pistons but the OmniRing is free to move. So, the OmniValve via the OmniRing can effectively close off all "counter flow" without movement of the valve! THIS IS THE KEY

Every type of variable valve train varies the cam, the place in time where the cam starts its unalterable cycle, but the valves never open or close any faster, because they are locked to the lobe of the cam.

OmniValves via the OmniRing are not locked to the cam, they can move, giving you perfect valve timing, every stroke, cylinder by cylinder, every RPM, under every driving condition!

I sure hope this helps. Mike @ omnivalves.com

 

Interesting concept.

How does the "ring" react to the pressure change?

Is the ring calibrated by some sort of spring, and will open at certain pressure
differentials?

Is the ring free floating and can react to pressure change based on mass of
the ring alone?

What sort of modifcations are necessary to install the valve on a stock
valve seat, and piston clearance on let's say a 2002 LS1 engine?

Are you giving up compression height of the piston to make the valve head
fit at TDC? Seems like notching the piston would be out of the question?

 

You might want to retract this. There is no overlap, but both valves are definitely not closed.


tieman55

Just so you know, typing omnivalve and omniring as many times as you did above really makes your product sound like it should be featured in an infomertial. Doesn't help with your credibility. Also, why did you write engineer in quotes?

 

When the momentum of an air/fuel charge is not high enough to overcome the pressure created by the changing rate of volume the upward moving piston, then yes, the piston will push some of the air/fuel charge out of the cylinder. This only happens at slow speeds, but it does happen.

I think this is a great idea, but it got caught up in the marketing machine. I agree with you that the claims they make are big, but the theory is solid, so I'm not shooting it that down. Only time will tell if they actually make anything of it. Do you know how many patents there are that never went to production.

Also when I was following a similar thread on another forum a few years back, I did see some dyno's of Harley motors and of a small block that were equipped with similar valves (but I don't know if it was omnivalves). The results were there, but the gains were not huge, they were more like 15-20% at the mid to low end.

Just so you know, I've worked on motor that idled at 200rpm...but it was single cylinder tractor motor