It appears we have 2 molecular scientists here today, lol.
Washing rings?
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Originally Posted by engineermike
Okay, so now you're telling me that you changed the head(s?) and bearings, then it cracked a throttle body, so "washing the rings" is what caused the smoking? Think about that for a minute.
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Originally Posted by LiENUS
blah blah blah.
How 'bout this food for thought. . . a 2-stroke dirtbike engine. You run a 32, 40, or even 50/1 gas/oil ratio. So, you got a whole bunch of gas and a little oil in there. Why don't they "wash the rings". In a car engine, you always have oil on the cylinder wall up to the 2nd compression ring. Not 50/1 gas/oil - 100% oil to lubricate the cylinder. So you think that, of the very, very thin oil layer that remains on the cylinders after the top two rings scrape it off, in the couple of milliseconds that the air and fuel get in there, the extra gasoline somehow dissolves the remaining oil off the wall? What about the SEARING FLAME in the cylinder during combustion? Don't you think that would burn more oil off the wall than the gasoline can dissolve in a short period of time? Hell, even if the gasoline dissolves some oil on the cylinder wall, what remains? A gas/oil mixture, which is proven in 2-stroke engines to lubricate anyway. And what about Methanol? 6/1 A/F ratio (alot of liquid for the air) and not nearly the lubricating properties of gasoline. Methanol motors somehow don't "wash the rings".
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Originally Posted by engineermike
Unless you tear the engine apart, mic the bores, mic the pistons, and check the ring gaps before and after running it rich, you WILL NOT be able to convince me that the rings were "washed out" by excess fuel. It's a silly concept, really, if you think about it.
How 'bout this food for thought. . . a 2-stroke dirtbike engine. You run a 32, 40, or even 50/1 gas/oil ratio. So, you got a whole bunch of gas and a little oil in there. Why don't they "wash the rings". In a car engine, you always have oil on the cylinder wall up to the 2nd compression ring. Not 50/1 gas/oil - 100% oil to lubricate the cylinder. So you think that, of the very, very thin oil layer that remains on the cylinders after the top two rings scrape it off, in the couple of milliseconds that the air and fuel get in there, the extra gasoline somehow dissolves the remaining oil off the wall? What about the SEARING FLAME in the cylinder during combustion? Don't you think that would burn more oil off the wall than the gasoline can dissolve in a short period of time? Hell, even if the gasoline dissolves some oil on the cylinder wall, what remains? A gas/oil mixture, which is proven in 2-stroke engines to lubricate anyway. And what about Methanol? 6/1 A/F ratio (alot of liquid for the air) and not nearly the lubricating properties of gasoline. Methanol motors somehow don't "wash the rings".
How 'bout this food for thought. . . a 2-stroke dirtbike engine. You run a 32, 40, or even 50/1 gas/oil ratio. So, you got a whole bunch of gas and a little oil in there. Why don't they "wash the rings". In a car engine, you always have oil on the cylinder wall up to the 2nd compression ring. Not 50/1 gas/oil - 100% oil to lubricate the cylinder. So you think that, of the very, very thin oil layer that remains on the cylinders after the top two rings scrape it off, in the couple of milliseconds that the air and fuel get in there, the extra gasoline somehow dissolves the remaining oil off the wall? What about the SEARING FLAME in the cylinder during combustion? Don't you think that would burn more oil off the wall than the gasoline can dissolve in a short period of time? Hell, even if the gasoline dissolves some oil on the cylinder wall, what remains? A gas/oil mixture, which is proven in 2-stroke engines to lubricate anyway. And what about Methanol? 6/1 A/F ratio (alot of liquid for the air) and not nearly the lubricating properties of gasoline. Methanol motors somehow don't "wash the rings".
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Originally Posted by engineermike
Gasoline and petroleum oil are mixes of a broad array of molecule size. There's alot of overlap.
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Originally Posted by LiENUS
Gasoline tends to shear easier and go past the rings than petroleum oil due to its much lower viscosity.
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after reading this thread i want the 5 min. of my life back!
if you don't think that a rich condition can wash the rings of a new motor then you don't know **** about engines. i've seen it done several times by different people, most of them didn't know at the time. hell, my OLD "tuner" make a honest "fuckup" on my tune when my 370 was new. i put SVO 42's in it which are around 46-48lbers with LS1 fuel pressure, he set the tables for 36lb. injectors!!!!!!! i ran it for about 3-4k miles like that (had a 3speed auto, speedo no worky). i had it dyno tuned, fixed the problem, made good power, didn't smoke very much at all, and ran great. i had a lifter take a dump on me at the end of last year. when i took the heads off to replace the lifters they cylinder walls were very shiny and i knew the rings never seated properly. i had a well known engine builder come by and look at it. needless to say when he took it apart the rings were total ****. now i have it back together, with A WIDEBAND o2 in the car! its running great, sounds better, has more cranking compression, does not smoke at all!
WTF does a 2 stroke have to do with washing rings? hell, they don't even have oil in them. they (most) have 1 ring, needle bearings on the crank/rod(s), and reed valves.
if you don't think that a rich condition can wash the rings of a new motor then you don't know **** about engines. i've seen it done several times by different people, most of them didn't know at the time. hell, my OLD "tuner" make a honest "fuckup" on my tune when my 370 was new. i put SVO 42's in it which are around 46-48lbers with LS1 fuel pressure, he set the tables for 36lb. injectors!!!!!!! i ran it for about 3-4k miles like that (had a 3speed auto, speedo no worky). i had it dyno tuned, fixed the problem, made good power, didn't smoke very much at all, and ran great. i had a lifter take a dump on me at the end of last year. when i took the heads off to replace the lifters they cylinder walls were very shiny and i knew the rings never seated properly. i had a well known engine builder come by and look at it. needless to say when he took it apart the rings were total ****. now i have it back together, with A WIDEBAND o2 in the car! its running great, sounds better, has more cranking compression, does not smoke at all!
WTF does a 2 stroke have to do with washing rings? hell, they don't even have oil in them. they (most) have 1 ring, needle bearings on the crank/rod(s), and reed valves.
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Originally Posted by SSwanner
cylinder walls were very shiny and i knew the rings never seated properly.
Originally Posted by SSwanner
needless to say when he took it apart the rings were total ****.
Originally Posted by SSwanner
WTF does a 2 stroke have to do with washing rings? hell, they don't even have oil in them. they (most) have 1 ring, needle bearings on the crank/rod(s), and reed valves.
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Originally Posted by LiENUS
I know 4-5 engineers from Exxon and they all take the person who taught me's word as golden.
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Originally Posted by engineermike
If you know anything about engines, you would know that many of the high level engine builders are using very smooth finishes on the cylinder walls now. Last block I got back from the shop looked polished in the bore. As long as it's round and non-tapered, shiny is good. You say the rings never seated because the bore is shiny? You DO realize that the bore HAS to wear in order for the rings to seat, don't you? So, are you saying they never seated, or they seated and then wore out?
Is that a technical term? What, exactly, was wrong with the rings? What was the ring gap? What was the surface finish?
My point about the 2-stroke is that they use a gas/oil mix to lubricate the rings and it works well.
Is that a technical term? What, exactly, was wrong with the rings? What was the ring gap? What was the surface finish?
My point about the 2-stroke is that they use a gas/oil mix to lubricate the rings and it works well.
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Originally Posted by LiENUS
2-Strokes are designed with no oil in mind, they use sealed bearings, they have only one ring, they are also much smaller and have less friction than a large engine. Build a 5.7 Liter v8 2-stroke engine and see how long it lasts on 50:1 2-stroke gas.
Dirt bike, chain saw, and boat engine bearings are roller and lubricated by the gas/oil. Most 2-strokes have 2 rings, though the small ones have 1. Pistons are cast or forged aluminum. Cylinders are iron, or plated chrome or nickle alloy. 500 cc dirt bike engines have an equivalent bore x stroke of a 4.0 liter V-8. The 3.0 liter V-6 outboards are the same equivalent size. Now that I think about it, at work we have a 2-stroke V-6 that's 10,000 cid with 7 rings and it runs continuously.
Mike
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Originally Posted by engineermike
I'm starting to wonder if this is a joke.
Dirt bike, chain saw, and boat engine bearings are roller and lubricated by the gas/oil. Most 2-strokes have 2 rings, though the small ones have 1. Pistons are cast or forged aluminum. Cylinders are iron, or plated chrome or nickle alloy. 500 cc dirt bike engines have an equivalent bore x stroke of a 4.0 liter V-8. The 3.0 liter V-6 outboards are the same equivalent size. Now that I think about it, at work we have a 2-stroke V-6 that's 10,000 cid with 7 rings and it runs continuously.
Mike
Dirt bike, chain saw, and boat engine bearings are roller and lubricated by the gas/oil. Most 2-strokes have 2 rings, though the small ones have 1. Pistons are cast or forged aluminum. Cylinders are iron, or plated chrome or nickle alloy. 500 cc dirt bike engines have an equivalent bore x stroke of a 4.0 liter V-8. The 3.0 liter V-6 outboards are the same equivalent size. Now that I think about it, at work we have a 2-stroke V-6 that's 10,000 cid with 7 rings and it runs continuously.
Mike