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Hi Swirl Piston Design - Soft Heads - Larry Widmer style

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Old 07-13-2017, 08:54 AM   #21
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now that the history has been well presented in plain view, here are drawings from Larry Widmer's Endyn website. What do we see ? The same exact head design- presented as if it's something new he invented or discovered. At present time this head design is at least 80 or more years old. Larry W. just decided to embrace it and try it out on modern engines, by making custom pistons with domes that crowd the intake valve in the chamber, and leave a space around the exhaust valve.
below is the link to Larry W.'s Endyn page, for the soft head article.


http://www.theoldone.com/articles/The_Soft_Head_1999/
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Hi Swirl Piston Design - Soft Heads - Larry Widmer style-t1.jpg   Hi Swirl Piston Design - Soft Heads - Larry Widmer style-t2.jpg  
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:13 AM   #22
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what does this prove ? one statement stands the test of time- there's really never anything new- just old ideas re-invented, and rehashed. here's a few more of Larry W.'s drawings from the soft head webpage. the stark similarities between these drawings, and the early Chevy 6 head, are blatantly apparent.


again, Larry is a very smart guy. Smart people don't re-invent the wheel. Really smart people are even better at being opportunistic. They have a wider horizon viewpoint, and see potentials in things, that the average person will not even notice- and often may embrace ideas or designs that the average person will toss in the trash as antiquated junk.


if you bought custom pistons from Larry W.- what you would get- most likely- is a reverse domed piston, that has very little clearance against the intake valve at TDC, and a lot of clearance or space around the exhaust valve area- at TDC.


this is not rocket science. then again, how many of you younger fellas on this site, have ever seen an early Chevy straight 6 engine, with a GM soft head design on it ? probably none of you.


that enables anyone re-introducing the design, to adopt a "guru" personality- because once again, it's all new information. when in fact, it's old information from the ages, being re-introduced.


I read some of Larry's postings on putting a shorter rod in a 351C engine, and how much better it ran. well no kidding- Bill Jenkins went into detail about that, back in 1976 or so- in his book "The Chevrolet Racing Engine". Grumpy basically laid it out like this- it's a balancing act between intake port volume, rod length, and cam lobe separation angle. All these factors are balanced against each other. Taking any one of them to the highest degree, such as a really big intake port i.e. 351C, can be balanced by making one of the other factors smaller. So a huge intake port, can benefit from a shorter rod, to pull on that port harder coming away from TDC with the piston- a short rod has a faster acceleration away from TDC. But if the intake port volume is relatively small, then a longer rod is needed to balance the engine- in this case a long rod pulls away from TDC at a slower rate, giving the smaller port more time to fill the cylinder.
Larry W. found this out with the 351C engine. But Grumpy already knew it- for a long, long time before that. Grumpy ran huge port volumes in early Pro Stock with the 427 aluminum BBC engine. BBC engines of that generation had a short rod ratio designed into it by GM right from the factory, so the factory engineers also already knew this.
Larry was just finding out on his own, that a short rod also works on a 351C, which had a huge intake port to begin with. The fix ? short rod pulls on the big port harder on the intake stroke, increasing velocity.
again, nothing new there.
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Hi Swirl Piston Design - Soft Heads - Larry Widmer style-e1.jpg   Hi Swirl Piston Design - Soft Heads - Larry Widmer style-n4.jpg  
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:36 AM   #23
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more proof: those early straight 6 Chevys were called "stovebolts"
a common mod was fill the chamber to make it smaller
they have a following and guys resurrect them and soup them up.
the heads are known to crack a lot. it's hard to find good useable cores anymore, most are cracked.


here's the webpage with pics of mods. we are talking an ANTIQUE ENGINE.


http://midstateantiquestockcarclub.com/stovebolts.html

when Larry W. started the soft head controversy back in the 1980-90's, there were a few NASCAR teams that tried it. What they found was, if the car gets into a tight pack during a NASCAR race, the engine will tend to overheat and detonate/ping. That particular team abandoned the head design and went back to a conventional cylinder head. The soft head has its limitations.


ask yourself why Larry W. abandoned NASCAR and NHRA, and moved into the import Honda engine crowd. why ? if his Pro Stock T-bird was so fast, why didn't he knock Glidden and Reher/Morrison, and Johnson out of the way, and become a Pro Stock multi-millionaire champion ?
Because the gains were not as dramatic as presented on the Endyn site. and showing up for a few Pro Stock races, doesn't make you a champion. You have to run all year- reliably- without breaking. With a ton of extra parts, and a crew.
Larry moved on to new pastures, a new honey hole. younger inexperienced Honda car enthusiasts...who never saw a 1945 Chevy straight 6 before. and there's nothing wrong with that. if you're in business, you adapt to find a new customer base, to stay in business. cuz the alternative is, throw in the towel and go out of business.
putting a dome on a piston in that way, does raise compression, and give a more efficient burn from the confined space it creates at TDC. but the gains are not dramatic. they are modest at best. changing all the pistons in an engine, is not going to make a 200HP import, into a 300HP import. You may gain 20HP per point of compression increase, and maybe 20HP more- if you're lucky, on a good day- from the more efficient, confined chamber burn. you "might" make a 200HP engine, into a 240HP engine- on your absolute best day- from changing just pistons. most of the gain will be from plain jane compression increase. compression can't be pushed to the moon on a street car, the affordable pump gas available won't support it.
Larry at some point was a one man show, working out of his house. He probably still is. He had no "shop", and when he says "we"- he was the only one there. Who's "we" ?? By what the latest net posts say, he does have a bona fide shop now- finally.
again, nothing wrong with that.


picture below of that ultra high-tech, "guru" 235 stovebolt chamber, from the antique stovebolt page...(smirk) it's a spittin' image of Larry W.'s soft head discovery. again, nothing wrong with copying it. it shows he's smart enough and adventurous enough, to try new approaches to engine design, contrary to current trends- even if it means dusting off old designs and re-introducing them. the big mod for the straight 6 is, filling the chamber some. gee, how 'bout that...exactly what Larry does with his soft head.
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Hi Swirl Piston Design - Soft Heads - Larry Widmer style-235-chamber.jpg  

Last edited by bigCID; 07-13-2017 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:53 AM   #24
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ps- recent 500" Pro Stock racing engines in NHRA, used an old Chevy 348/409 main bearing, and a Honda rod bearing. smaller bearings have less friction, and are lighter, and easier to keep oiled. the best one for the job ? a 60 year old main bearing.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:56 AM   #25
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You are proving that there is nothing new under the sun.... what's new is old, and what's old is new....
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:20 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by G Atsma View Post
You are proving that there is nothing new under the sun.... what's new is old, and what's old is new....

exactly. another example- the current LS GM series of engines- the crossbolted mains, and skirted block, are old Chrysler Hemi, RB/B, and Ford FE block design traits. crossbolted mains and skirted blocked were used in the 406/427 Fords and 413/426 Hemi and wedge, since the late 1950's/early 1960's.

let me add- be on your guard- be on the lookout for it. people reinvent the wheel and try to resell it to you.
Larry W. knew long time ago, that 90% of anything put in print with respect to automobile racing, is done to get you to buy something.
and that's exactly what he's doing himself. it's his creedo.
whether he does it consciously, or subconsciously.
in this society, most things are profit motivated.


I'm not posting this for profit or gain. I never dealt with Larry W. or Endyn and never bought anything there. I don't drive imports. IMHO they are still throw-away cars. It would be an insulting embarrassment to me, to own and drive a Honda car.
Larry's website is informative and interesting. Besides being really smart, and hard working- he has a prominent personality trait, that many political leaders, rock stars, sports figures, movie stars also have- he's a bit of an egotist, and narcissist.


just like Michael Jordan, Donald Trump, Mohammad Ali, Ritchie Blackmore...these guys don't walk around in a timid manner, telling people they sukk. they do the opposite. they go around telling people how great they are. every day is spent supporting and propping up their self image and ego. some more than others.


if you deal with a class A personality, have backstops and safeguards in place. if you buy something from them, pay with a credit card and paypal, so you can reverse the payment if they don't deliver.


that gets their attention- fast. no tikki, no laundry.

Last edited by bigCID; 07-13-2017 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:39 AM   #27
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In the case of the LS, I don't think GM is claiming any new discoveries; just a case of knowing what works WELL, and using it. Resourcefulness, I guess you could call it...
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Old 07-13-2017, 12:38 PM   #28
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Wow, cool head! Check out the "cutting edge" shaft mount/off-set rockers too!
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Old 07-13-2017, 01:17 PM   #29
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In the case of the LS, I don't think GM is claiming any new discoveries; just a case of knowing what works WELL, and using it. Resourcefulness, I guess you could call it...

exactly correct. GM isn't claiming any new discoveries- instead they outright blatantly copied the cross bolted, skirted block- and stayed quiet about it, not mentioning it was an old Chrysler and Ford NASCAR innovation from the 1960's. the younger generation buying the LS powered cars, doesn't know any better. so it's the same sales approach. I say this as a GM car owner for 40 years- owned them all, and built them all - Pontiac, Olds, Buick, Chevy, Cadillac.


in GM's defense, they did add 2 bolts per cap, from 4 bolt to 6 bolt- and put 6 bolt caps on all 5 mains. so they did at least improve it.


but it's still copied.
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Old 07-13-2017, 03:10 PM   #30
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If it wasn't patented, which it wasn't, GM had every right to do what they did. It isn't rocket science. I would have done the same thing. It's engineering common sense. If you were GM, would you have advertised that they were using Ford and Chrysler ideas? I doubt it. So knock off the "GM ripped off Ford and Chrysler" tirade. It's just a case of using a good idea. Nothing underhanded about it.
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Old 07-13-2017, 08:52 PM   #31
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If it wasn't patented, which it wasn't, GM had every right to do what they did. It isn't rocket science. I would have done the same thing. It's engineering common sense. If you were GM, would you have advertised that they were using Ford and Chrysler ideas? I doubt it. So knock off the "GM ripped off Ford and Chrysler" tirade. It's just a case of using a good idea. Nothing underhanded about it.



"knock off" your narrow minded thinking. you obviously run an LS and your ego got bruised, cuz you found out it's really a dated Chrysler/Ford bottom end block design. well too bad. you're showing your age here- you didn't know ! the comparison was made, to show how old ideas get regurgitated, and sold to oblivious consumers such as yourself, for a lot of money...as if they're the latest greatest thing. Now put that in your pipe, and smoke it for a while. it's not "engineering common sense", it's marketing- cuz GM didn't engineer it. ask yourself, why did GM wait so long to copy it ? answer: cuz they had to wait a few generations, to market it to people who didn't know the design was lifted from someone else. most of the people designing for GM now, have foreign accents and aren't even Americans. there's a difference between engineering, and copying. engineering means- you invented and designed it yourself. and GM didn't do that with the cross bolted mains. they stold the idea from Ford and Chrysler.


there's a difference.

Last edited by bigCID; 07-13-2017 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:04 PM   #32
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I do own one, but it's in our family Suburban. You have no idea of my age. What got me about you and your attitude is you implying ideas were stolen, when nobody owned them in the first place. There's nothing holy about GM in my eyes, they just used ideas from the public realm as anyone with a brain would do. All the implied plotting by GM to fool the public is hogwash. They didn't need the technology yet as the old small block still had some life in it. You have to get all these conspiracy theories out of your paranoid mind.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:06 AM   #33
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Default Woodward Prechamber Sparkplug

Hi Big, YES I Agree as I am a Ford engine expert (HMS).
I raced a 427 Fairlane (Side-Oiler) in High School on my friend's track. (Steve Evens)
I assembled 302 Tunnel Ports then to be bench dyno tested, they where "flat" below 5K RPM. (Fords Trans-Am Program)
We got the Boss 302 Dry Deck head/block next (BBC Head Copy)
The head exhaust port was poor, I then installed the exhaust header tube directly into the head (Braised) with a "slip" for the longer pipes.
The engine benched at 610HP (9500 RPM Max), about 50 more than a Chev.

I raced F-5000 with this Ford/Lotus, then onto a Lola 332/Chev.

The work done today is MUCH DIFFERENT than the Chevy six, greater than the Jag HSC head, greater that the Honda HSC.

MY Work : Prechamber Spark Plug Design
MY bech dyno and engine, LSX 400 CID ( standard desk), Crower billet Rods with .990" pins, RaceTec Flat Top pistons, LS-7 dry pan, LS-2 heads, camshaft, and valve train.
Customers goal : Low NOX, CO, HC with Lean Burn AFR 18:1. (No Missfire)
MY ECU-882C and IGN-1A coils where fitted, successful calibration with emissions almost too low to record. (AVL test bench)

Patent Issued US7922551 : Woodward

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Old 07-15-2017, 07:23 AM   #34
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Quote:
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"knock off" your narrow minded thinking. you obviously run an LS and your ego got bruised...
That's pretty funny considering it appears you signed up to this site just to revive this old *** thread and go on your tirade about Larry.

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there's a difference between engineering, and copying. engineering means- you invented and designed it yourself.
I think that most Professional Engineers would disgree. Merriam-Webster (they're kind of an authority on definitions BTW) actually defines Engineering as "the design and manufacture of complex products." GM didn't invent pistons, rods, or crankshafts with the LS, but they were all engineered by GM specifically for the LS.
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Old 07-15-2017, 09:18 AM   #35
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I think he's long gone. He came, he agitated and annoyed, he left.
Thank you for jumping in on this KCS!
Yeah, this thread is all he posted in.
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Old 07-15-2017, 10:19 AM   #36
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Quote:
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I think he's long gone. He came, he agitated and annoyed, he left.
Thank you for jumping in on this KCS!
Yeah, this thread is all he posted in.
Yeah, hopefully the retirement home he's in took away his computer privileges for a little while.
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Old 07-15-2017, 10:28 AM   #37
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^^^^^This, PLUS got him back on his meds... lol
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:12 PM   #38
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uh.....NOT!! it's called having a life, fellas...G Atsma, you have what, 1,069 posts here ? you live here ?
my God man, who needs the meds ?? back AWAY from the keyboard...slowly...
the fact remains- LS engines are a rebadged 1963 Ford 427 block design. not that it's a bad thing...but it's a copy !!
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:35 PM   #39
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Yeah, hopefully the retirement home he's in took away his computer privileges for a little while.
Not long enough! lol
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Old 07-18-2017, 11:11 AM   #40
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Default Boss 302 = bbc

Hi Big "BS", sure you are correct, I raced a 427 Fairlane in HS.
NOW the Ford Boss 302, a BBC head copy ?

A "life" yes, my wife's AFTER doctors REMOVED One (RH) lung.
Then the cost of chemical poisoning at 18K a month x 4.
She is OK now though I work at the shop every OTHER day !

The Prechamber Spark Plug, the MODERN method, no comment ?

Lance
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