Improving areodynamics
12-11-2002, 06:24 AM
#21
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Re: Improving areodynamics I would still be interested in knowing more about what I could do to make my car safer at those speeds, I'm already in the process of building vents into my hood and fenders, I stuck with the LT1 style front end as I envisioned that to bemore aerodynamic, and have pieces for the "nostrils" in the bumper. I have the WS6 hood, which I imagine to be way better than the current one, but am considering building a peice to cover the nostrils as well, something removable. I have a couple other ideas too. Anything that needs to be adressed with the rear of the car body wise?
What have you found to be effective as far as suspension goes?
Any info you can share at all would be greatly appreciated, getting any info from someone that has done it would be of great help.
What have you found to be effective as far as suspension goes?
Any info you can share at all would be greatly appreciated, getting any info from someone that has done it would be of great help.
12-11-2002, 10:58 AM
#22
Re: Improving areodynamics v7guy: If you are stuck with the LT1 style front end here are some ideas for you. And here is a REAL good idea for the rear of your car:
<img src="http://www.salug.org/~davidm/sscc/DSCN0474-ssc.jpg" alt=" - " />
Any speeds in excess of 180mph an air diffusor becomes a nessecary evil on the fbody.
Here is the front end of the same car. This is what a 215mph Fbody looks like. There are a few things that could be changed on it as far as aero is concerned but he needs the SS hood to feed the carbed motor thats in it. And he doesnt want to take the mirrors off the car.
<img src="http://www.salug.org/~davidm/sscc/DSCN0512-ssc.jpg" alt=" - " />
Another side view. Look how low to the ground this thing is. Doesnt make it to streetable but is a must at these speeds.
<img src="http://www.salug.org/~davidm/sscc/new_DSCN0507.jpg" alt=" - " />
Here is, right after it AVERAGED 196.xx mph over 90 miles. I am buddy's with the guy that navigated in that car. He said that for a better part of the entire run the GPS NEVER came below 210. Also notice the plastic air damn that hangs off the nose. when he started the run that thing scrapes the ground. After the run almost 1 1/12 inches of it was ground off.
<img src="http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid33/p554075f5db9454930ecdd9a4264a7b89/fd3b3ad2.jpg" alt=" - " />
After that run his tires were so hot that you could not physically touch them for almost 10-15minutes
<small>[ December 11, 2002, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: NataSS Inc ]</small>
<img src="http://www.salug.org/~davidm/sscc/DSCN0474-ssc.jpg" alt=" - " />
Any speeds in excess of 180mph an air diffusor becomes a nessecary evil on the fbody.
Here is the front end of the same car. This is what a 215mph Fbody looks like. There are a few things that could be changed on it as far as aero is concerned but he needs the SS hood to feed the carbed motor thats in it. And he doesnt want to take the mirrors off the car.
<img src="http://www.salug.org/~davidm/sscc/DSCN0512-ssc.jpg" alt=" - " />
Another side view. Look how low to the ground this thing is. Doesnt make it to streetable but is a must at these speeds.
<img src="http://www.salug.org/~davidm/sscc/new_DSCN0507.jpg" alt=" - " />
Here is, right after it AVERAGED 196.xx mph over 90 miles. I am buddy's with the guy that navigated in that car. He said that for a better part of the entire run the GPS NEVER came below 210. Also notice the plastic air damn that hangs off the nose. when he started the run that thing scrapes the ground. After the run almost 1 1/12 inches of it was ground off.
<img src="http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid33/p554075f5db9454930ecdd9a4264a7b89/fd3b3ad2.jpg" alt=" - " />
After that run his tires were so hot that you could not physically touch them for almost 10-15minutes
<small>[ December 11, 2002, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: NataSS Inc ]</small>
12-12-2002, 08:26 PM
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Re: Improving areodynamics It looks surprisingly stock actually. I was figuring on a belly pan as well as the rear diffuser.......did he have any issues with the front end being light...........I noticed there's no way for the pressure to escape the fenders, I'm assuming there's a cut at the back of the hood too.
was he running a full pan under it or just a rear diffuser?
Also I noticed he's running on 16's.....better than with lower profile tires that are on 17's or 18's? I'm guessing it might be for handling bumps better, more give in the sidewalls. Do you know the answer to any of these? It's mostly, on my part, speculation at this point.
was he running a full pan under it or just a rear diffuser?
Also I noticed he's running on 16's.....better than with lower profile tires that are on 17's or 18's? I'm guessing it might be for handling bumps better, more give in the sidewalls. Do you know the answer to any of these? It's mostly, on my part, speculation at this point.
12-12-2002, 08:40 PM
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Re: Improving areodynamics NataSS Inc: I have never heard a better description of the dangers of high speed driving. I applaud your elegance and eloquence. Thanks to her idiot brother, an tricked out '69 Z28, and an extreme lack of judgement, my wife is shy one leg.
Stang Killer: in order to reach the speeds you would like, I would suggest getting a second car and going hog wild, knowing full well that you cannot drive it on the street. Now this is not a bad thing!
If you would like to get into the competition aspect of road racing, WITHOUT going crazy and ruining your daily driver, join the SCCA. Solo II autocross competitions are fun!
Stang Killer: in order to reach the speeds you would like, I would suggest getting a second car and going hog wild, knowing full well that you cannot drive it on the street. Now this is not a bad thing!
If you would like to get into the competition aspect of road racing, WITHOUT going crazy and ruining your daily driver, join the SCCA. Solo II autocross competitions are fun!
12-12-2002, 08:44 PM
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Re: Improving areodynamics By the way, I am not personally a member of the SCCA. Thanks to my own high speed wreck, at a mere 120 MPH in a 1978 Corvette, I have epilepsy stemming from cerebral tears and scarring.
ALWAYS drive as if your life depends on it, because it does.
ALWAYS drive as if your life depends on it, because it does.
12-12-2002, 08:53 PM
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Re: Improving areodynamics </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mhulslan:
<strong>NataSS Inc: I have never heard a better description of the dangers of high speed driving. I applaud your elegance and eloquence. Thanks to her idiot brother, an tricked out '69 Z28, and an extreme lack of judgement, my wife is shy one leg.
Stang Killer: in order to reach the speeds you would like, I would suggest getting a second car and going hog wild, knowing full well that you cannot drive it on the street. Now this is not a bad thing!
If you would like to get into the competition aspect of road racing, WITHOUT going crazy and ruining your daily driver, join the SCCA. Solo II autocross competitions are fun!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">hmmm yea shouldnt be that hard to find a stripped down sports car
<strong>NataSS Inc: I have never heard a better description of the dangers of high speed driving. I applaud your elegance and eloquence. Thanks to her idiot brother, an tricked out '69 Z28, and an extreme lack of judgement, my wife is shy one leg.
Stang Killer: in order to reach the speeds you would like, I would suggest getting a second car and going hog wild, knowing full well that you cannot drive it on the street. Now this is not a bad thing!
If you would like to get into the competition aspect of road racing, WITHOUT going crazy and ruining your daily driver, join the SCCA. Solo II autocross competitions are fun!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">hmmm yea shouldnt be that hard to find a stripped down sports car
12-14-2002, 01:21 AM
#28
Re: Improving areodynamics </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by v7guy:
<strong>It looks surprisingly stock actually. I was figuring on a belly pan as well as the rear diffuser.......did he have any issues with the front end being light........... was he running a full pan under it or just a rear diffuser?
Also I noticed he's running on 16's..... I'm guessing it might be for handling bumps better, more give in the sidewalls. Do you know the answer to any of these? It's mostly, on my part, speculation at this point.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I kind of edited your post a bit to answer this. There are more stock components on that car than I care to list, motor NOT being one of them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> . I will say that it DOES have the stock 10 bolt under it and still had the stock brakes. But in the sept. event it almost cost him dearly. 5 minutes into the run the interior of the car was filling with smoke (I have the incar video). By the end of the run there was gear lube covering the rear of the car and completely soaked the brakes with it (if you notice in the pic there is a guy staring at the rear tires. He was looking at the soaked brakes), he had NO brakes and almost could not stop the car before he entered the hot pits (close to 50-100 people walking around). 1/4 mile from the hot pits he was still doing 170mph. He had to force the car into second gear, destroying the clutch and trans to get the car stopped.
A belly pan is one of the worst things you can have on your car for this type of race. you are on a public highway, not a smooth race track. There are frost heaves, dips and unknown road surface conditions everytime we run there. At high speeds if your suspension uncompresses and enough air pack under the car and you have a belly pan, the belly pan will act like a wing and create lift. Did you ever see the video running around on the internet of the Lemans car that flipped over about 3 times coming over a little rise at the track.......you get the idea. But the diffusor is all he has under the car.
Actually those are 17's. A little more sidewall is a good thing for this event.
<strong>It looks surprisingly stock actually. I was figuring on a belly pan as well as the rear diffuser.......did he have any issues with the front end being light........... was he running a full pan under it or just a rear diffuser?
Also I noticed he's running on 16's..... I'm guessing it might be for handling bumps better, more give in the sidewalls. Do you know the answer to any of these? It's mostly, on my part, speculation at this point.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I kind of edited your post a bit to answer this. There are more stock components on that car than I care to list, motor NOT being one of them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> . I will say that it DOES have the stock 10 bolt under it and still had the stock brakes. But in the sept. event it almost cost him dearly. 5 minutes into the run the interior of the car was filling with smoke (I have the incar video). By the end of the run there was gear lube covering the rear of the car and completely soaked the brakes with it (if you notice in the pic there is a guy staring at the rear tires. He was looking at the soaked brakes), he had NO brakes and almost could not stop the car before he entered the hot pits (close to 50-100 people walking around). 1/4 mile from the hot pits he was still doing 170mph. He had to force the car into second gear, destroying the clutch and trans to get the car stopped.
A belly pan is one of the worst things you can have on your car for this type of race. you are on a public highway, not a smooth race track. There are frost heaves, dips and unknown road surface conditions everytime we run there. At high speeds if your suspension uncompresses and enough air pack under the car and you have a belly pan, the belly pan will act like a wing and create lift. Did you ever see the video running around on the internet of the Lemans car that flipped over about 3 times coming over a little rise at the track.......you get the idea. But the diffusor is all he has under the car.
Actually those are 17's. A little more sidewall is a good thing for this event.
12-14-2002, 01:29 AM
#29
Re: Improving areodynamics Guys I am not trying to stop anyone from running fast. Hell, I am trying to be the first person to break 200mph in a N/A LS1 powered Fbody (vette guys aleady did it, but it took a mallet vette to do it...peckers!) at one of these events. I have the addiction to speed like everyone here, well OK maybe a little bit more. I just want people to understand the risks that are involved with it. If you want to run fast, do it right. Take every safety step you can to prevent accident. for anyone that wants it I can give you a list of all of the safety gear that is in or going in my car in the near future.
12-14-2002, 04:23 PM
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Re: Improving areodynamics well, that's a good thing to know. Other than the rear diffuser and the front being low. Is there anything else I should be aware of?
A halon system would of course be a good idea. I was wondering about tire sidewall as well.
Would a set of lightweight 16s be better? I would assume yes. Also what kind of spring rates and shocks? would be reccomended.
Obviously a brake upgrade would be a good thing as well. As well as a rollcage.
Any suggestions as to achieving a happy balance between front and back down force?
A halon system would of course be a good idea. I was wondering about tire sidewall as well.
Would a set of lightweight 16s be better? I would assume yes. Also what kind of spring rates and shocks? would be reccomended.
Obviously a brake upgrade would be a good thing as well. As well as a rollcage.
Any suggestions as to achieving a happy balance between front and back down force?
12-24-2002, 09:12 AM
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Re: Improving areodynamics </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by NataSS Inc:
<strong>[QUOTE]Originally posted by v7guy:
[qb]I will say that it DOES have the stock 10 bolt under it and still had the stock brakes. But in the sept. event it almost cost him dearly. 5 minutes into the run the interior of the car was filling with smoke (I have the incar video). By the end of the run there was gear lube covering the rear of the car and completely soaked the brakes </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Would you explain the details of the failures?
It sounds like he lost an axel [or pinion] seal, and front and rear brakes. I can envision the seal failure, but not the failure of the brakes.
Thanks.
<strong>[QUOTE]Originally posted by v7guy:
[qb]I will say that it DOES have the stock 10 bolt under it and still had the stock brakes. But in the sept. event it almost cost him dearly. 5 minutes into the run the interior of the car was filling with smoke (I have the incar video). By the end of the run there was gear lube covering the rear of the car and completely soaked the brakes </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Would you explain the details of the failures?
It sounds like he lost an axel [or pinion] seal, and front and rear brakes. I can envision the seal failure, but not the failure of the brakes.
Thanks.
12-24-2002, 10:15 AM
#33
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Re: Improving areodynamics Hey NataSS,
Logically, it's better bnotto attand such evetns with stock motor right?
The question concerned not about top speed but how too cool off the engine oil, etc?
Can be done some independant mods to cool off the engine, coz with high RPMs my engine oil gets pretty hot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Logically, it's better bnotto attand such evetns with stock motor right?
The question concerned not about top speed but how too cool off the engine oil, etc?
Can be done some independant mods to cool off the engine, coz with high RPMs my engine oil gets pretty hot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
12-24-2002, 11:41 AM
#34
Re: Improving areodynamics </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by TomQ:
<strong>Hey NataSS,
Logically, it's better bnotto attand such evetns with stock motor right?
The question concerned not about top speed but how too cool off the engine oil, etc?
Can be done some independant mods to cool off the engine, coz with high RPMs my engine oil gets pretty hot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The stock Fbody's that run in these events hold together real good even in the 145mph target classes. Cooling is a big issue. Anyone running with a 165mph tech speed usually have trans coolers, oil coolers and diff coolers. Mine are waiting to go in the car.
<strong>Hey NataSS,
Logically, it's better bnotto attand such evetns with stock motor right?
The question concerned not about top speed but how too cool off the engine oil, etc?
Can be done some independant mods to cool off the engine, coz with high RPMs my engine oil gets pretty hot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The stock Fbody's that run in these events hold together real good even in the 145mph target classes. Cooling is a big issue. Anyone running with a 165mph tech speed usually have trans coolers, oil coolers and diff coolers. Mine are waiting to go in the car.
12-24-2002, 03:15 PM
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Re: Improving areodynamics NataSS:
I strongly disagree with your thinking that the WS6 hood won't help top speed. I can run some calculations for you, but at 200 mph, I believe the hp gained from ram air effect will offset the extra drag of the hood and more.
Where can I get one of those undercarriage diffusers? That looks sweet!
I strongly disagree with your thinking that the WS6 hood won't help top speed. I can run some calculations for you, but at 200 mph, I believe the hp gained from ram air effect will offset the extra drag of the hood and more.
Where can I get one of those undercarriage diffusers? That looks sweet!
12-25-2002, 12:57 AM
#36
Re: Improving areodynamics Any idea what size and model tires he was using while maintaining 210MPH?
I guess I'm mildly glad that he has most of the factory appearance package (which I have) and he hasn't found a reason to remove it.
Is there an easy way to put vent holes in the stock hood, and/or in the cowl? How large, shape, direction, etc?
Why would you put vent holes in the rear fenders? Where's it going to escape, the water channels in the rear hatch? You'd want the air escaping to the top of the car, right?
And if you did need to vent the fenders, isn't that an indicator of something else not setup correctly?
I guess I'm mildly glad that he has most of the factory appearance package (which I have) and he hasn't found a reason to remove it.
Is there an easy way to put vent holes in the stock hood, and/or in the cowl? How large, shape, direction, etc?
Why would you put vent holes in the rear fenders? Where's it going to escape, the water channels in the rear hatch? You'd want the air escaping to the top of the car, right?
And if you did need to vent the fenders, isn't that an indicator of something else not setup correctly?
12-25-2002, 02:03 AM
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Re: Improving areodynamics the SLEEPER - Am I seeing correctly, that's a T-Top car?
Any reasoning behind that or is that what he had to work with?
Lot's of good info in this post.
Thanks,
James
Any reasoning behind that or is that what he had to work with?
Lot's of good info in this post.
Thanks,
James
12-25-2002, 03:21 AM
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Re: Improving areodynamics Fenris - For what it's worth there is approximately a 1 inch layer of turbulent air that surrounds a car, a scoop of any sort would have to be above this level to achieve any sort of "ram air" effect, and even then it doesn't ram the air into the engine, in order to do that the air would have to be compressed and forced in, and that simply does not happen as you increase speed. Ram air setups are basically just an extremely good CAI. That's rather expensive and looks REAL good. I'm in no way knocking it as I have one myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
The diffuser was custom made.
The diffuser was custom made.
12-25-2002, 06:05 AM
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Re: Improving areodynamics Boyce,
After reading your post, I'll stick to show and shines & Dyno events.
Hats off to you for not heading out and going to the race without doing your homwork. I would not of thought all of that was involved in open road racing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
After reading your post, I'll stick to show and shines & Dyno events.
Hats off to you for not heading out and going to the race without doing your homwork. I would not of thought all of that was involved in open road racing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
12-25-2002, 05:29 PM
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Re: Improving areodynamics </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by v7guy:
<strong>Fenris - For what it's worth there is approximately a 1 inch layer of turbulent air that surrounds a car, a scoop of any sort would have to be above this level to achieve any sort of "ram air" effect, and even then it doesn't ram the air into the engine, in order to do that the air would have to be compressed and forced in, and that simply does not happen as you increase speed. Ram air setups are basically just an extremely good CAI. That's rather expensive and looks REAL good. I'm in no way knocking it as I have one myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
The diffuser was custom made.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is a good point, but the laminar boundary layer might reduce the effectiveness of the SS hood whereas the WS6 nostrils towards the front of the car will be fine. The boundary layer thickness increases roughly as a function of the square root of one over X if I remember correctly.
<strong>Fenris - For what it's worth there is approximately a 1 inch layer of turbulent air that surrounds a car, a scoop of any sort would have to be above this level to achieve any sort of "ram air" effect, and even then it doesn't ram the air into the engine, in order to do that the air would have to be compressed and forced in, and that simply does not happen as you increase speed. Ram air setups are basically just an extremely good CAI. That's rather expensive and looks REAL good. I'm in no way knocking it as I have one myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
The diffuser was custom made.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is a good point, but the laminar boundary layer might reduce the effectiveness of the SS hood whereas the WS6 nostrils towards the front of the car will be fine. The boundary layer thickness increases roughly as a function of the square root of one over X if I remember correctly.