</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Fenris Ulf:
<strong>NataSS:

I strongly disagree with your thinking that the WS6 hood won't help top speed. I can run some calculations for you, but at 200 mph, I believe the hp gained from ram air effect will offset the extra drag of the hood and more.

Where can I get one of those undercarriage diffusers? That looks sweet!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe NataSS's primary arguement with the Sealed WS6 ram air kit ineffectiveness was that it actually blew the air box assembly appart. These guys are running 150mph+ for extended periods of time, that's some hardcore ram air. If you were to do this I would suggest clamping your lid down with WAY more than just the two little weak stock ones.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

 

And Firebird guys... if you want to improve your aerodynamics don't race at night <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> You know what I'm talking about lol.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 2000LS1:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Fenris Ulf:
<strong>NataSS:

I strongly disagree with your thinking that the WS6 hood won't help top speed. I can run some calculations for you, but at 200 mph, I believe the hp gained from ram air effect will offset the extra drag of the hood and more.

Where can I get one of those undercarriage diffusers? That looks sweet!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe NataSS's primary arguement with the Sealed WS6 ram air kit ineffectiveness was that it actually blew the air box assembly appart. These guys are running 150mph+ for extended periods of time, that's some hardcore ram air. If you were to do this I would suggest clamping your lid down with WAY more than just the two little weak stock ones.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">NataSS was arguing that the WS6s were less aerodynamic and thus slower. I have gone over 180 mph in my WS6 and my lid was just fine, and I highly doubt that GM would produce a stock airlid that could fly apart at a speed less than the governor.

 

Now that I thought about it, there is no way that air pressure could blow apart the lid while being buried under the "inch" of boundary layer over the hood, thus proving that the hood is very effective <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> (or someone didnt secure his lid correctly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Fenris Ulf:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 2000LS1:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Fenris Ulf:
<strong>NataSS:

I strongly disagree with your thinking that the WS6 hood won't help top speed. I can run some calculations for you, but at 200 mph, I believe the hp gained from ram air effect will offset the extra drag of the hood and more.

Where can I get one of those undercarriage diffusers? That looks sweet!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe NataSS's primary arguement with the Sealed WS6 ram air kit ineffectiveness was that it actually blew the air box assembly appart. These guys are running 150mph+ for extended periods of time, that's some hardcore ram air. If you were to do this I would suggest clamping your lid down with WAY more than just the two little weak stock ones.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">NataSS was arguing that the WS6s were less aerodynamic and thus slower. I have gone over 180 mph in my WS6 and my lid was just fine, and I highly doubt that GM would produce a stock airlid that could fly apart at a speed less than the governor.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"There was enough air pressure moving through the nostrils that the air box came apart if I remember right." -NataSS Inc
I have no experience, that's just what I gathered from his post.

 

this just may call for a thin aluminum air box, or maybe a light gauge steel one <img border="0" alt="[Driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />

 

Since we're all discussing my airbox and my car I might as well jump in here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> First off, no my airbox (aftermarket lid/K&N ) didn't blow apart during last May's SSCC. NataSS was just hoping that was what happened so that my BG ram air mod wouldn't be able to help me in next May's event .... since we'll be running against one another at that time <img border="0" alt="[Driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" /> What happened was that the big oblong rubber plug that comes with the BGRA kit that helps seal the hood, blew out at 165 mph. This simply means that the factory WS6 hood + the BG ram air are very effective at pressurizing the air box thus making hp ! If you can believe it, THEE Brian Green heard about this, called me at work, and sent me another one totally free ! What a great guy ! I've glued this one in place.There is obviously a significant pressure build up at these speeds.
What NataSS has been telling you about pressure buildup is true, but it's important to remember that if you seal up your airbox correctly, then the pressure that enters threw the nostrils is confined to the airbox and never makes it "underhood" . I also tend to agree with Fenris that the ram air, done correctly, adds more in the form of hp, than it takes away in aerodynamics. The faster you go, the more hp a ram air system will make, but as you go faster aerodynamics become more important than hp ??!! At 200+ mph it's possible that the ram air might become an actual hindrance ? I have no data to confirm/deny this however.IMO at 180 mph or less it definitely helps tho. My 340 rwhp car was cruising at 160+ far too easily for it to not be working. I had at least 1" of pedal left over.
Lastly ... let me officially 2nd, 3rd, and 4th the point that Nata has been politely trying to steer everyone towards. Preparation is where it's at. Never scrimp on safety ... unless you're saving up for a nice burial . And never make the mistake of thinking that your superior street driving and local road course crash avoidance skills apply at 165+ mph speeds on the streets. You simply don't jam on the brakes or jerk the wheel at very high speeds to avoid something. Even if you see a cow standing in your lane at 165 mph. By the time you can react, you have a MUCH better chance of living if you just go straight and hit the damn cow, than you do by trying to pull off some heroic high speed maneuver.
Be smart, prepare for going fast, and if you REALLY enjoy going fast then meet NataSS and I at next May's SSCC. We'll buy you some drinks, show you around, talk some trash, and promise you that you'll have the best weekend of your life .

<small>[ December 25, 2002, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: Racehead ]</small>

 

That is excellent data Racehead. If I get bored enough I can figure out approximately how much pressure it takes to pop out that rubber sealer on the bottom of the hood. Its the long oval/rectangular one right? For those who think ram air type intakes are more of a hindrance for top speed cars, I implore you to look at modern F1 car design where a slight increase in the drag coeffecient is more than offset by the power gained from the forced air duct behind the driver's head.

 

No more thoughts?

Which of the f-bodies has the best drag coeffecient?

 

hmmmmmm, that is interesting, Id forgot about that being mentioned. It would appear as said earlier that the air isn't actually making it in the engine though if the box blew apart. Of course a stronger box would have to help. I'm going to have to test this out next summer and see if there is a difference.

Thanks for pointing that out Fenris! Always better to be correct than right! lol

92 camaro Drag coeffiecent is .38
93+ camaro Drag coeffiecent is .34

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Fenris Ulf:
<strong> No more thoughts?

Which of the f-bodies has the best drag coeffecient? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, so you want more thoughts huh ?! OK, the f-bodys have a drag co-efficient of .34, and the C5's are slightly better at .33 ( most people think that a C5 is much better, but in fact they're very close ) Also the frontal area on an fbody is 22 sq/ft. On the C5 it's 21 sq/ft. How much much more hp is required of an fbody to maintain 150 mph ? My T/A is 1 1/2 inches lower than stock. Because of this it's frontal area is actually about 21 sq/ft like the 'Vette's. How much more hp is required of my car specifically over the C5 ?

I've heard repeatedly that the T/A's are slightly more aerodynamic that are the Camaro's. Supposedly this is because of the nose and/or the skirting ? Can anybody verify this with a link or hard data ? I'd love to be able to toss this in NataSS's face a couple of times a month or so !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

I'm going to go cook myself a steak now bye !

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by v7guy:
<strong> It would appear as said earlier that the air isn't actually making it in the engine though if the box blew apart. Of course a stronger box would have to help. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You not paying attention <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> the box DIDN'T blow apart.

 

sorry I worded that wrong, the seal popped out........air has to be crammed in the engine if the box's seal came out, that's obvious, I imagine that if the box and it's seals where stronger, or a better design was made it would be even more effective, I just wonder how much more air is being crammed in at that speed and wether it overcomes the drag created, it's odd to think that the ram air actually does start to work just as named, I was thinking about it more today, and maybe the 1 inch of turbulence doesn't apply sice the air is actually coming straight on to the vents, in essence, there isn't much or any turbulent air when it comes up to the vent, it just continues going straight..........that's some pretty interesting stuff though.

As some added info on Ram Air, Keith did some research on this and got some interesting results I imagine that removing the baffles would provide even better results in any case here is the link. http://www.ws6.com/ramtest.htm

Racehead.....so have you made any mods to the hood itself? Also good info on the frontal area and CD...........where have you learned this info from?

 

v7guy,
Actually the BG ram air mod that I've done is a fantastic setup that totally seals the airbox with no leaks. Once you glue the oblong rubber plug in place then it's a worry free system.The mods to my hood include the following

a) Removing both baffles

b) Filling all holes with both plastic and rubber plugs + fitting a sealed cover over the latch.

c) Installing an inner liner that smoothly directs air from the openings at the front of the hood to the big holes in the back that the air filter housing feeds from

d) Installing a seal between the actual hood and the lid. And lastly

e) Removing the eggcrate plastic mesh over the front of the holes in the hood for more flow and installing some little corner pieces to enhance the looks of the now gaping holes.

Remember that the WS6.com site, while a very good site, is using the older LT1 '93-'97 WS6 hood which has the much smaller holes . I don't know how the hood box volume compares, but it does look physically smaller. This wouldn't be nearly as effective as the '98+ hood since the volume of air it can move is much greater . Even Keith noted that flow fell off in 5th gear above 4500-5000 rpm.

Some of my info was gleaned from another members site. He goes by Jon A or something. If I can find it I'll post it. Very good stuff.

 

I am willing to bet that the flow fell off in the higher gears because turbulence within the hood took over. The turbulence elemination funnels that come with a BG ramair kit take care of this.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Racehead:

Can anybody verify this with a link or hard data ? I'd love to be able to toss this in NataSS's face a couple of times a month or so !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Racehead buddy, even if that load of yours is more aero than mine........I have the HP to push mine past any minor drag inconvienences. BTW, More HP is on the way...shhhhhhh!

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Todd2001SS:
<strong> Boyce,

After reading your post, I'll stick to show and shines & Dyno events.

Hats off to you for not heading out and going to the race without doing your homwork. I would not of thought all of that was involved in open road racing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ahow and shines are fun but I like to prove the car is as fast as it looks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> . There is more to planning a run at an open road event than I had ever thought. This whole project has had the snowball down the hill effect. It just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger until the wallet cries "uncle"!

 

NataSS- I hear you LOL!!!! It's pretty involved.

That sounds like a hell of a setup there racehead. I have the LT1 style ram air, and your right, the LS1 has the ability to move a much higher volume of air, one of the reasons I went with the suncoast hood being that the nostrils are bigger than the others available. Ive been looking at building a ram air box for mine.

It would be really interesting to hook up a scan tool to measure how much air was going past the MAF with the BG kit and the seal staying intact. It's obvious the air was pressurized, but I wonder if it was making it in the engine and the funnels were doing as designed.........there is the possibility that it blew out the seal because it wasn't going into the engine and couldn't go out the point of entry so it built up until it blew a seal.........of course there is the very realistic posibility that the air that was being rammed through it was too much for the system........if the air was being funneled appropriately though I would assume the later is more likely than the former.
That's really impressive that it blew a glued seal, there must have been ALOT of pressure there.
I'd be very interested in seeing some pics of this system, it sounds VERY nice.
Also, I don't know, but I'm assuming when calculating the frontal area of a vehicle you also add in the area inbetween the bottom of the car and the ground.............this is how lowering it changes the frontal area?????

Do both the firebird, camaro and T/A have the same CD????? I would imagine that the bird might be the worst, follwed be the camaro and then the T/A being the best, it has the smoothest front end, so it stands to reason.......

NataSS- I'm assuming your going to be running a flat rate spring? what shocks are you going with?



Also mentioned was turbulence elimination funnels? what are these? what do they look like? Have any pics of this kit?


The

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by NataSS Inc:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Racehead:

Can anybody verify this with a link or hard data ? I'd love to be able to toss this in NataSS's face a couple of times a month or so !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Racehead buddy, even if that load of yours is more aero than mine........I have the HP to push mine past any minor drag inconvienences. BTW, More HP is on the way...shhhhhhh! [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's about time you showed up, how long do we have to talk about you before your ears start burning anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> More hp ? Call me when you get a chance, I wanna know the details. My hp is the same except for this year my ram air box will be sealed better and will hold together..... so actually I might make a few more ponys ! Since it IS pressurizing my intake I'm going to start calling it my "PASSIVE TURBO SYSTEM" hahahahaha !

v7guy, yes you always calculate frontal area by including the "space" between the bottom of the car and the ground. It's so un-aerodynamic under a car that any air that makes it there is extremely turbulent + as air goes under your car it compresses creating much more friction ( and lift ) This is the reason why a lowered car requires so much less hp to maintain 150 mph than a stock one, even though it's drag co-efficient has not changed.
I don't have any close up pics on my site of my BGRA setup to show you. Maybe I should add another picture page and put a few up this weekend. I'll post it for you if I do. You could do a search for Brian Greens site address in the mean time. He's got some pretty good pics on it.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JimMueller:
<strong> Any idea what size and model tires he was using while maintaining 210MPH?


</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">275 45 17 Michelin Mxx3's. to bad they are not made anymore though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" />