Yank Exposed *DELETED*
10-08-2003, 11:22 AM
#42
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Re: Yank Exposed i think the tci provides a good price point for those that want a good middle of the road verter (tci ssf 3500). I can't imagine driving around the city traffic in a 4400, so thats not likely to happen. Got enough drag tickets already from vw'in days.
Price the TCI sounds good, and if they will back up their work, which is obviously VERY IMPORTANT in this age of TCI being in the LS1 market, to prove themselves, then hell yeah i'll give it a shot.
Does tci sell direct? or do you just pick a specific 'veter from your list of available from TSP or something?
competition is good. makes prices lower for everyone.
Price the TCI sounds good, and if they will back up their work, which is obviously VERY IMPORTANT in this age of TCI being in the LS1 market, to prove themselves, then hell yeah i'll give it a shot.
Does tci sell direct? or do you just pick a specific 'veter from your list of available from TSP or something?
competition is good. makes prices lower for everyone.
10-08-2003, 12:12 PM
#44
D(irecto)r Pepper
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Re: Yank Exposed
The one reason that would perswade me to Yank is just the proof of what people have done with their converters. If you check the stock internal list on this board in the Drag Racing section you will notice that the top 20 cars, 99% of them are Yanks. Yes I know Yank has been in the LS1 biz for a longer time than TCI has, but proof is proof in my book.
TIA
TIA
Even after all you point out, even after all you have seen with your two eye's?
There is a reason the Yanks are kicking the competitions ***, PERFORMANCE, you have seen it time and time again on about every buds car you have been around. It's on the list's, it's at the street meets, it's at the track.
Yank in yours/our buds cars DOMINATE.
Look for proof, look for results.
10-08-2003, 12:32 PM
#45
Re: Yank Exposed Just as two wrongs do not make a right, pics of two different brand crappy constructed converters do not make either brand a good converter. I'd still rather see Kevin explain the pictures of the TCI converter exposed rather than expose a crappy constructed Yank. Mike should explain the Yank pics too.
10-08-2003, 12:45 PM
#46
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Re: Yank Exposed well... I'll add to this thread. I have a Yank PT4400 and I LOVE it. It's GREAT and really makes the car a beast. I plan on going for the stock internal NA record and this verter is a MUST!
Also, I had a trans failure and had to send Mike my verter to get flushed. The turnaround was excellent and Mike was also very helpful on the phone. Two thumbs up for Yank!
Also, I had a trans failure and had to send Mike my verter to get flushed. The turnaround was excellent and Mike was also very helpful on the phone. Two thumbs up for Yank!
10-08-2003, 01:04 PM
#47
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Re: Yank Exposed
2xLS1,
Most of the points in Yank's "TCI Exposed" page are not factual. Let's start at the beginning.
TCI Exposed
That is a TCI part number 242932 (not 249932) torque converter that is rated at 3500 stall speed, not 4400. TCI doesn't even make a part number 249932 converter.
TCI doesn't use a cutoff wheel to remove the old hub and every impeller is now machined on a highly accurate CNC lathe.
Every TCI converter has a maximum runout specification of .010" TIR. They're typically .004"-.005" TIR. I've seen OE F*rd units off as much as .022". If the converter measures more than .010", then it is cut open and repaired.
On our first batch of 242932 converters, we did use the #7 impellor and 082 stator, from there on we used the #6 impellor and 082 stator, which stalls approximately 300 less than the #7 and perfectly matches our advertised stall speed (3500). We use .070"-.080" turbine clearance, not .200"+.
All TCI converters are precision balanced to within 10 gram-in.
Our turbine hubs are CNC machined and hardened. They are machined to the proper specification in the seal bore.
The turbine that was shown is the picture is not scaling, nor would TCI use a part that was scaled.
Yep, the furnace braze did miss a couple of spots. This is common for all furnace brazing processes. The most important factor in the strength of a 245mm turbine is to reinforce the blades by hand welding them. Thanks to our 675 hp dyno engine we were able to identify all of the weak spots, before we began selling the converter.
Our clutch assembly is an OE GM unit. The clutch lining did fail because of a faulty bonding process. This was the first one that had failed. Thanks to Yank's webpage, we were able to identify the problem immediately and fix it.
Now, we do reinforce the cover with 6 reinforcement lugs attached to a thick mounting ring. That is an improvement over the old stuff. Yank should post pictures of our new stuff instead of the first design stuff. That change was not made because of a problem with the cover cracking, but rather it was an improvement made to provide a more stable lockup surface. The old cover design was certainly not prone to cracking though, much less warping. If a front cracks, then it will leak, because of the high converter charge pressure. I've never seen one of our LS1 converters come back for a leak.
There are several things that can contribute to uneven pilot wear, including transmission to engine alignment. That is a particularly bad problem on many F*rd transmissions. Like I said earlier, TCI has a very tight runout tolerance.
Kevin
--------------------
Fully Optioned 1985 Cutlass Supreme 3600 lbs, EFI 406 sbc, FAST ECU, TCI LS1 4L60E trans and TCI 3500 converter, 3.42 gear
1.61-60',7.34 @ 94 mph,
11.66 @ 116.4 on motor/BFG DRs
6.72 @ 103 w/a 1.50 on N2O on BFG Drag Radials
http://www.geocities.com/bad79z28/cutlass.html
Most of the points in Yank's "TCI Exposed" page are not factual. Let's start at the beginning.
TCI Exposed
That is a TCI part number 242932 (not 249932) torque converter that is rated at 3500 stall speed, not 4400. TCI doesn't even make a part number 249932 converter.
TCI doesn't use a cutoff wheel to remove the old hub and every impeller is now machined on a highly accurate CNC lathe.
Every TCI converter has a maximum runout specification of .010" TIR. They're typically .004"-.005" TIR. I've seen OE F*rd units off as much as .022". If the converter measures more than .010", then it is cut open and repaired.
On our first batch of 242932 converters, we did use the #7 impellor and 082 stator, from there on we used the #6 impellor and 082 stator, which stalls approximately 300 less than the #7 and perfectly matches our advertised stall speed (3500). We use .070"-.080" turbine clearance, not .200"+.
All TCI converters are precision balanced to within 10 gram-in.
Our turbine hubs are CNC machined and hardened. They are machined to the proper specification in the seal bore.
The turbine that was shown is the picture is not scaling, nor would TCI use a part that was scaled.
Yep, the furnace braze did miss a couple of spots. This is common for all furnace brazing processes. The most important factor in the strength of a 245mm turbine is to reinforce the blades by hand welding them. Thanks to our 675 hp dyno engine we were able to identify all of the weak spots, before we began selling the converter.
Our clutch assembly is an OE GM unit. The clutch lining did fail because of a faulty bonding process. This was the first one that had failed. Thanks to Yank's webpage, we were able to identify the problem immediately and fix it.
Now, we do reinforce the cover with 6 reinforcement lugs attached to a thick mounting ring. That is an improvement over the old stuff. Yank should post pictures of our new stuff instead of the first design stuff. That change was not made because of a problem with the cover cracking, but rather it was an improvement made to provide a more stable lockup surface. The old cover design was certainly not prone to cracking though, much less warping. If a front cracks, then it will leak, because of the high converter charge pressure. I've never seen one of our LS1 converters come back for a leak.
There are several things that can contribute to uneven pilot wear, including transmission to engine alignment. That is a particularly bad problem on many F*rd transmissions. Like I said earlier, TCI has a very tight runout tolerance.
Kevin
--------------------
Fully Optioned 1985 Cutlass Supreme 3600 lbs, EFI 406 sbc, FAST ECU, TCI LS1 4L60E trans and TCI 3500 converter, 3.42 gear
1.61-60',7.34 @ 94 mph,
11.66 @ 116.4 on motor/BFG DRs
6.72 @ 103 w/a 1.50 on N2O on BFG Drag Radials
http://www.geocities.com/bad79z28/cutlass.html
I would like to hear Mike at Yank, not someone else, explain the pictures on this thread. Mike??
Kevin Steele
TCI
Product Engineer
10-08-2003, 01:47 PM
#48
Re: Yank Exposed I have avoided all of the "big names" that mass produce converters. I had Mike Kurtz (Houston) do one for me in '98 and have had ZERO problems with it. Even when I grenaded the trans a couple months ago (street racing on a 100-shot), the converter was taken apart and we found that it was 100% still in order. Just put a new hub and torrington bearing on it and slapped it back in.
10-08-2003, 02:52 PM
#49
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Re: Yank Exposed i'd like to see more failures. I've produced car parts before and there will always be f!ckups, no matter how careful you are. If there was a consistent quality problem i'd bet there would be alot of angry users here.
whats the ratio of TCI to YANK users? If TCI is newer to the scene then it might be unfair to call them out on the drag database.
I'm gonna give the TCI a shot, if it sucks, i'll raise almighty hell
as should any owner whose had a bad experience. It's really kinda lame for producers of equipment to call out others, imo.
It should be the PEOPLE that bought the products that raise their voices when they have problems.
Where are all the broken yank and tci people to step up and speak out? I'd rather hear about that from the owners, and how they drove their parts into the ground too i bet theres a story behind each 'verter that comes back torched.
whats the ratio of TCI to YANK users? If TCI is newer to the scene then it might be unfair to call them out on the drag database.
I'm gonna give the TCI a shot, if it sucks, i'll raise almighty hell
as should any owner whose had a bad experience. It's really kinda lame for producers of equipment to call out others, imo.It should be the PEOPLE that bought the products that raise their voices when they have problems.
Where are all the broken yank and tci people to step up and speak out? I'd rather hear about that from the owners, and how they drove their parts into the ground too
i bet theres a story behind each 'verter that comes back torched.
10-08-2003, 03:51 PM
#50
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Re: Yank Exposed Well, I can say I've used TCI converters for years without a problem.
My Last one was a SSF for a Turbo 400, behind a 462ci Pontiac motor (550 lbs of torque) plus a Cheator kit. Many miles and Passes.
I'm sure the Yank is a top quality converter as well, just don't sell the TCI short because they are newer to the LS1.
My Last one was a SSF for a Turbo 400, behind a 462ci Pontiac motor (550 lbs of torque) plus a Cheator kit. Many miles and Passes.
I'm sure the Yank is a top quality converter as well, just don't sell the TCI short because they are newer to the LS1.
10-08-2003, 05:18 PM
#51
Re: Yank Exposed Kevin,
Sorry for the long delay to reply. It's been a long time since I've made a reply here and as a result, I lost my user name and password. Just got a new one. I will respond to your post as fast as I can type (which might take some time).
Mike at Yank
Sorry for the long delay to reply. It's been a long time since I've made a reply here and as a result, I lost my user name and password. Just got a new one. I will respond to your post as fast as I can type (which might take some time).
Mike at Yank
10-08-2003, 06:22 PM
#52
Re: Yank Exposed Kevin, thank you for letting us view the photos. This is great info to share with our fellow LS1 lovers.
Now, I don't want to come across like I'm making excuses for the condition of the converter in the photos, but in all honesty, they are a result of a faulty installation that had a domino effect of destroying the converter. They are not from poor design or manufacturing. Now before any of you cry foul or think I'm trying to pass the blame, let me explain in detail what appears to have happened to this particular converter.
Photo #5, Bore Scratches:
These marks are deeply pushed into the o-ring seal and were caused by not loading the converter correctly onto the transmission or by loading the converter onto the wrong type of transmission (or input shaft). This cannot be caused during the manufacturing process. The hubs we use are new installed in the turbine and we use no tools that can scratch that surface. Only intentional blunt force can cause that kind of damage. Not a Yank mis-build or quality issue.
Photo #1:
Shows date of mfr. and stall. We sold 2 PT 4400s in March of '02. One to a customer with a 4L70 trans kit on the East Coast and one to a well-known board member in California who was installing the converter on an aftermarket transmission. (so we know who the customer was). The converter was never sent back to Yank for warranty work...possibly from embarrassment from the customer for faulty installation?
Photo #2:
Shows the results from loss of line pressure. Because of deep scratches in the turbine bore, oil ran past the o-ring seal. Pressure was lost. Clutch plate would slip with lower line pressure. PCM will try to overcompensate by going to max line pressure (to stop slippage). As line pressure rises, this pushes the converter away from the trans and puts the o-ring deeper into the area of deep scratches. Excessive line pressure most likely warped the clutch plate. The clutch starts losing full contact. As you can see in the photo, the lining is rubbed off at the edges. This is a sign of the clutch plate not being flat any more (due to excessive line pressure). We have since installed a more flex resistant clutch to stay more true, even if there were installation errors and damage. But again, this in an installation caused issue and not caused by poor mfr. quality.
Photo #3:
When converter was installed, the line-up-slot should have been installed first, then the other 2 bolts installed loosely (to ensure concentricity). Also, putting anti-sieze or grease on pilot will stop converter from being pulled off to one side. There is clearance between hub and bore. This must be held on center to prevent this condition.
Photo #4:
Our bearings are GM Timken Premium Select units that are for motorsports use rated at 10,500 rpms (and not low rpm stock units as you illustrated).
Photo #6:
This hub has chatter marks at pump drive area. Another sign it was subjected to excessive line pressure. This will push the converter away from the transmission into the motor against the flexplate, making the converter run untrue.
Photo #7:
The hub is welded on the inside and outside. The area you show is weld overlap (where welds run under and over each other). It is not a crack. Normally, our paint covers these cosmetic blemishes, but your hot tank removed most of that. Our hubs are sealed from the welds on the inside and therefore cannot leak.
Photo #8
Brazing is done from the inside out. All blades are brazed in place. Excess did not run through. Not a quality issue. Brazing is complete in crucial areas!
Photo #9:
All Yank Covnerters are subject to very tight standards and run-out is set very low (less than .007"). But again, if you over-charge a converter with excessive line pressure, you can move the centerline by ballooning. Again, a result of scratches in the turbine bore caused during the installation process or by the converter not being installed on center.
Photo #10:
All Yank Converters are balanced to as close to 0 gram weight as possible. We balance and install weights as required. You will notice that weights in the photo are installed AROUND the converter (indicating there were no heavy spots from too much run-out). The converter was balanced correctly before it was shipped.
Photo #11:
Scatches in bore. Customer installation damage. Cannot be caused during mfg. process, PERIOD! Not built that way. Not shipped that way.
Kevin, in closing, you have pointed out crucial areas that installers must pay attention to. Bad installations can cause many, many problems for the end user (who usually blames the converter builder). These photos can help many owners with their reasons for some of their converter issues. Now I'm not saying that we never make mistakes. It's just that the damage was so blatant, there's no way it was the result of poor mfg. on our part.
Kevin, with your permission, we would like to use these photos in our new installation guide and trouble-shooting brochure.
I also read that you pulled your 4400 converters off the shelf as you found a way to improve their efficiency. Was that AFTER looked at our PT 4400?
Like TCI, Yank is constantly improving our products and that particular converter was the last of that style. All subsequent PT 4400s have received numerous refinements and upgrades over the past 18 months (including our new Pro Stock series of converters).
Also, since TCI buys parts indirectly from Yank (TCI part # 932500 Mid-mount motor plate flex shield, designed by Yank and protected under US Patent # 5184524), we value TCI as a customer. If it helps bury the hatchet, we will remove the TCI Exposed link from our website as a gesture of good will. Sound fair enough?
Mike at Yank
Now, I don't want to come across like I'm making excuses for the condition of the converter in the photos, but in all honesty, they are a result of a faulty installation that had a domino effect of destroying the converter. They are not from poor design or manufacturing. Now before any of you cry foul or think I'm trying to pass the blame, let me explain in detail what appears to have happened to this particular converter.
Photo #5, Bore Scratches:
These marks are deeply pushed into the o-ring seal and were caused by not loading the converter correctly onto the transmission or by loading the converter onto the wrong type of transmission (or input shaft). This cannot be caused during the manufacturing process. The hubs we use are new installed in the turbine and we use no tools that can scratch that surface. Only intentional blunt force can cause that kind of damage. Not a Yank mis-build or quality issue.
Photo #1:
Shows date of mfr. and stall. We sold 2 PT 4400s in March of '02. One to a customer with a 4L70 trans kit on the East Coast and one to a well-known board member in California who was installing the converter on an aftermarket transmission. (so we know who the customer was). The converter was never sent back to Yank for warranty work...possibly from embarrassment from the customer for faulty installation?
Photo #2:
Shows the results from loss of line pressure. Because of deep scratches in the turbine bore, oil ran past the o-ring seal. Pressure was lost. Clutch plate would slip with lower line pressure. PCM will try to overcompensate by going to max line pressure (to stop slippage). As line pressure rises, this pushes the converter away from the trans and puts the o-ring deeper into the area of deep scratches. Excessive line pressure most likely warped the clutch plate. The clutch starts losing full contact. As you can see in the photo, the lining is rubbed off at the edges. This is a sign of the clutch plate not being flat any more (due to excessive line pressure). We have since installed a more flex resistant clutch to stay more true, even if there were installation errors and damage. But again, this in an installation caused issue and not caused by poor mfr. quality.
Photo #3:
When converter was installed, the line-up-slot should have been installed first, then the other 2 bolts installed loosely (to ensure concentricity). Also, putting anti-sieze or grease on pilot will stop converter from being pulled off to one side. There is clearance between hub and bore. This must be held on center to prevent this condition.
Photo #4:
Our bearings are GM Timken Premium Select units that are for motorsports use rated at 10,500 rpms (and not low rpm stock units as you illustrated).
Photo #6:
This hub has chatter marks at pump drive area. Another sign it was subjected to excessive line pressure. This will push the converter away from the transmission into the motor against the flexplate, making the converter run untrue.
Photo #7:
The hub is welded on the inside and outside. The area you show is weld overlap (where welds run under and over each other). It is not a crack. Normally, our paint covers these cosmetic blemishes, but your hot tank removed most of that. Our hubs are sealed from the welds on the inside and therefore cannot leak.
Photo #8
Brazing is done from the inside out. All blades are brazed in place. Excess did not run through. Not a quality issue. Brazing is complete in crucial areas!
Photo #9:
All Yank Covnerters are subject to very tight standards and run-out is set very low (less than .007"). But again, if you over-charge a converter with excessive line pressure, you can move the centerline by ballooning. Again, a result of scratches in the turbine bore caused during the installation process or by the converter not being installed on center.
Photo #10:
All Yank Converters are balanced to as close to 0 gram weight as possible. We balance and install weights as required. You will notice that weights in the photo are installed AROUND the converter (indicating there were no heavy spots from too much run-out). The converter was balanced correctly before it was shipped.
Photo #11:
Scatches in bore. Customer installation damage. Cannot be caused during mfg. process, PERIOD! Not built that way. Not shipped that way.
Kevin, in closing, you have pointed out crucial areas that installers must pay attention to. Bad installations can cause many, many problems for the end user (who usually blames the converter builder). These photos can help many owners with their reasons for some of their converter issues. Now I'm not saying that we never make mistakes. It's just that the damage was so blatant, there's no way it was the result of poor mfg. on our part.
Kevin, with your permission, we would like to use these photos in our new installation guide and trouble-shooting brochure.
I also read that you pulled your 4400 converters off the shelf as you found a way to improve their efficiency. Was that AFTER looked at our PT 4400?
Like TCI, Yank is constantly improving our products and that particular converter was the last of that style. All subsequent PT 4400s have received numerous refinements and upgrades over the past 18 months (including our new Pro Stock series of converters).
Also, since TCI buys parts indirectly from Yank (TCI part # 932500 Mid-mount motor plate flex shield, designed by Yank and protected under US Patent # 5184524), we value TCI as a customer. If it helps bury the hatchet, we will remove the TCI Exposed link from our website as a gesture of good will. Sound fair enough?
Mike at Yank
10-08-2003, 08:06 PM
#54
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Re: Yank Exposed
you have pointed out crucial areas that installers must pay attention to. Bad installations can cause many, many problems for the end user (who usually blames the converter builder). These photos can help many owners with their reasons for some of their converter issues.
10-09-2003, 12:03 AM
#57
D(irecto)r Pepper
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Re: Yank Exposed " also read that you pulled your 4400 converters off the shelf as you found a way to improve their efficiency. Was that AFTER looked at our PT 4400?"
Things that make you go "Hmmmmmmm...."
:p
Things that make you go "Hmmmmmmm...."
:p
10-09-2003, 06:50 AM
#58
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Re: Yank Exposed Mike at Yank said, "If it helps bury the hatchet, we will remove the TCI Exposed link from our website as a gesture of good will. Sound fair enough?"
Thanks for the offer. I think this would be best for both of us. You're certainly welcome to use the pictures for your intructions. Just a word of advice, you might want to invest in a little heat treating to help that crucial turbine hub seal bore remain "unblemished". Heck, I'd even sell you a few TCI turbine hubs.
Kevin
Thanks for the offer. I think this would be best for both of us. You're certainly welcome to use the pictures for your intructions. Just a word of advice, you might want to invest in a little heat treating to help that crucial turbine hub seal bore remain "unblemished". Heck, I'd even sell you a few TCI turbine hubs.
Kevin
10-09-2003, 07:42 AM
#59
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Re: Yank Exposed I'm not making a judgement on either converter. My question is how are these people messing up the install? How can the problem be the installer so often? It's not exactly a complicated procedure to install a converter. Just difficult to do on jack stands with the heavy parts, etc. I mean are people hammering it onto the input shaft or what?
10-09-2003, 07:49 AM
#60
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Re: Yank Exposed 4mulaJoe said,"My question is how are these people messing up the install? How can the problem be the installer so often?"
I don't know. I've installed more converters than most people could imagine and have never messed up an install yet. I have seen a few guys that didn't fully seat the converter and then try to draw the transmission up to the engine with the bolts.
That usually breaks the transmission pump. F*rds and Chryslers can sometimes be a pain.
Kevin
I don't know. I've installed more converters than most people could imagine and have never messed up an install yet. I have seen a few guys that didn't fully seat the converter and then try to draw the transmission up to the engine with the bolts.
That usually breaks the transmission pump. F*rds and Chryslers can sometimes be a pain.Kevin