4L60E What type of fluids are you'll running
01-26-2010, 09:11 AM
#21
Again, if the additive package is correct and it is targeting a set specification, ie DEXRON III or VI for example the base oil does not matter. Frictionally there should be very little difference between conventional and synthetic ATF when talking about like spec'd fluid. Just because its SYNTHETIC does not automatically mean it's more slippery. There is more to formulating an ATF than its base stock. Sometimes an OEM will specify that a synthetic base oil must be used to meet a given spec. This is not due to friction characteristics as that is affected by other additives like FM's (Friction Modifiers). The base fluid addresses shear and heat and also can beneficial for longer service life which is obviously important to the consumer.
01-26-2010, 11:16 AM
#22
Moser states it directly on new 12 Bolts and will not warranty the rear if synthetic is used. If you have a problem with there policy then take it up with Moser. Logically the proper viscosity oil (synthetic or not) shouldn't effect it, yet they state otherwise.
01-26-2010, 07:24 PM
#23
355turbolt1, I'm not going to argue some of the points of a spec'd ATF for a Stock trans. I will argue the point that synthetics can and do hurt some trannies. Countless customers have added, on their own, synthetics to their trans' and have shortly developed problems. This was in the early days of synthetics. They are different from 10-15 years ago. We don't see the problem like we use to, which we attribute to chemical changes and material changes.
Most of the guys here are younger and wonder why we used the Type F in our GM trans's, or any other. It IS because of the modifiers. You must also change Type F more often. The racers in the 60's and 70's found combining Redwood frictions, (which are no longer available), with Type F ATF found their trannies shifted firmer-due to the extra modifiers Ford uses. I also said the TYPE of frictions and steels would be different in a PURPOSE BUILT trans. Merc 5 & 6 are designed for many things, one being comfort, (or slipping into gear). Manufacturers are wanting to give the customer the smoothest shift feel possible. They back the timing down during the shift as not to feel a jerk during a shift, torque management.
I believe Amsoil claims first to add friction modifiers to their synthetic oils and test the oils in large campers and trucks back in the 90's. Todays frictions and bands are being designed for synthetics. YOU CAN NOT USE SYNTHETICS WITH ANY CARBON FIBER MATERIALS, PERIOD!! That is why Moser has a disclaimer on the diff, (if it has C/F clutches in the posi). That goes for bands and clutches in the trans. We worked with 35'+ campers, HD work trucks, plow trucks, race cars, etc. When the synthetics first came on the scene, we bombarded the teachers with questions. We went with what the they said...Plain ATF until more research can be done. Synthetics are evolving and will have a different formula tomorrow and the next day. Today the manufacturers install synthetics. That is for the STOCK vehicles. If I build a custom trans for a customer, a long conversation would take place so the PAYING customer can make an educated decission. This is where the HP frictions, steels, and bands should be matched to the ATF desired. Lube Guard has Anti-Oxident rich additives to prevent overheating, thermal breakdown, etc. They may be added to a performance trans if desired.
Most of the guys here are younger and wonder why we used the Type F in our GM trans's, or any other. It IS because of the modifiers. You must also change Type F more often. The racers in the 60's and 70's found combining Redwood frictions, (which are no longer available), with Type F ATF found their trannies shifted firmer-due to the extra modifiers Ford uses. I also said the TYPE of frictions and steels would be different in a PURPOSE BUILT trans. Merc 5 & 6 are designed for many things, one being comfort, (or slipping into gear). Manufacturers are wanting to give the customer the smoothest shift feel possible. They back the timing down during the shift as not to feel a jerk during a shift, torque management.
I believe Amsoil claims first to add friction modifiers to their synthetic oils and test the oils in large campers and trucks back in the 90's. Todays frictions and bands are being designed for synthetics. YOU CAN NOT USE SYNTHETICS WITH ANY CARBON FIBER MATERIALS, PERIOD!! That is why Moser has a disclaimer on the diff, (if it has C/F clutches in the posi). That goes for bands and clutches in the trans. We worked with 35'+ campers, HD work trucks, plow trucks, race cars, etc. When the synthetics first came on the scene, we bombarded the teachers with questions. We went with what the they said...Plain ATF until more research can be done. Synthetics are evolving and will have a different formula tomorrow and the next day. Today the manufacturers install synthetics. That is for the STOCK vehicles. If I build a custom trans for a customer, a long conversation would take place so the PAYING customer can make an educated decission. This is where the HP frictions, steels, and bands should be matched to the ATF desired. Lube Guard has Anti-Oxident rich additives to prevent overheating, thermal breakdown, etc. They may be added to a performance trans if desired.
01-26-2010, 08:34 PM
#24
355turbolt1, I'm not going to argue some of the points of a spec'd ATF for a Stock trans. I will argue the point that synthetics can and do hurt some trannies. Countless customers have added, on their own, synthetics to their trans' and have shortly developed problems. This was in the early days of synthetics. They are different from 10-15 years ago. We don't see the problem like we use to, which we attribute to chemical changes and material changes.
Most of the guys here are younger and wonder why we used the Type F in our GM trans's, or any other. It IS because of the modifiers. You must also change Type F more often. The racers in the 60's and 70's found combining Redwood frictions, (which are no longer available), with Type F ATF found their trannies shifted firmer-due to the extra modifiers Ford uses. I also said the TYPE of frictions and steels would be different in a PURPOSE BUILT trans. Merc 5 & 6 are designed for many things, one being comfort, (or slipping into gear). Manufacturers are wanting to give the customer the smoothest shift feel possible. They back the timing down during the shift as not to feel a jerk during a shift, torque management.
I believe Amsoil claims first to add friction modifiers to their synthetic oils and test the oils in large campers and trucks back in the 90's. Todays frictions and bands are being designed for synthetics. YOU CAN NOT USE SYNTHETICS WITH ANY CARBON FIBER MATERIALS, PERIOD!! That is why Moser has a disclaimer on the diff, (if it has C/F clutches in the posi). That goes for bands and clutches in the trans. We worked with 35'+ campers, HD work trucks, plow trucks, race cars, etc. When the synthetics first came on the scene, we bombarded the teachers with questions. We went with what the they said...Plain ATF until more research can be done. Synthetics are evolving and will have a different formula tomorrow and the next day. Today the manufacturers install synthetics. That is for the STOCK vehicles. If I build a custom trans for a customer, a long conversation would take place so the PAYING customer can make an educated decission. This is where the HP frictions, steels, and bands should be matched to the ATF desired. Lube Guard has Anti-Oxident rich additives to prevent overheating, thermal breakdown, etc. They may be added to a performance trans if desired.
Most of the guys here are younger and wonder why we used the Type F in our GM trans's, or any other. It IS because of the modifiers. You must also change Type F more often. The racers in the 60's and 70's found combining Redwood frictions, (which are no longer available), with Type F ATF found their trannies shifted firmer-due to the extra modifiers Ford uses. I also said the TYPE of frictions and steels would be different in a PURPOSE BUILT trans. Merc 5 & 6 are designed for many things, one being comfort, (or slipping into gear). Manufacturers are wanting to give the customer the smoothest shift feel possible. They back the timing down during the shift as not to feel a jerk during a shift, torque management.
I believe Amsoil claims first to add friction modifiers to their synthetic oils and test the oils in large campers and trucks back in the 90's. Todays frictions and bands are being designed for synthetics. YOU CAN NOT USE SYNTHETICS WITH ANY CARBON FIBER MATERIALS, PERIOD!! That is why Moser has a disclaimer on the diff, (if it has C/F clutches in the posi). That goes for bands and clutches in the trans. We worked with 35'+ campers, HD work trucks, plow trucks, race cars, etc. When the synthetics first came on the scene, we bombarded the teachers with questions. We went with what the they said...Plain ATF until more research can be done. Synthetics are evolving and will have a different formula tomorrow and the next day. Today the manufacturers install synthetics. That is for the STOCK vehicles. If I build a custom trans for a customer, a long conversation would take place so the PAYING customer can make an educated decission. This is where the HP frictions, steels, and bands should be matched to the ATF desired. Lube Guard has Anti-Oxident rich additives to prevent overheating, thermal breakdown, etc. They may be added to a performance trans if desired.
You act as if nobody in the racing scene uses synthetic ATF!?? Again do your research because you are wrong. Many do and it's no secret.
Amsoil blends a fluid like ATF to meet certain specs. They were the first to produce a synthetic ATF which worked very well. The issues you are speaking of occurred early on with some PAO, (short for poly-alpha-olefine) motor oils that caused engines to leak and issue related to flat tappet cams. This issue went away a LONG time ago.
It's apparent in this exchange that you need to educate yourself on ATF. And you are not the only person here who should look into this as I see outlandish stories and old wives tales here regularly regarding automotive lubricants. If you still want to believe that the word SYNTHETIC = super slippery in every case go right on ahead. Just do me the favor of not giving out false information and guidance when you are not well versed on the topic.
01-26-2010, 10:24 PM
#26
There are so many people out there running amsoil and Redline whom have never had one lube related problem it's not even funny. This is with both recreational and racing applications.
01-28-2010, 10:53 AM
#27
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You'll have to change/reprogram your shift points...Type F acts as a thinner fluid and will allow the converter to "slip" more @300rpm and it will make the shifts harsher. If your shifts are just before the rev limiter now, they will hit the rev limited with Type F. Some serious race guys change between fluids to change the slip/stall of the converter. If you want to tighten one up, you can use Allison Trans fluid. Type VI and III are about the same for viscosity. Last I checked, all our trans maintenance for most GM transmissions have changed over to TypeVI as the prefered fluid.
.............Paul
01-28-2010, 11:37 AM
#28
You'll have to change/reprogram your shift points...Type F acts as a thinner fluid and will allow the converter to "slip" more @300rpm and it will make the shifts harsher. If your shifts are just before the rev limiter now, they will hit the rev limited with Type F. Some serious race guys change between fluids to change the slip/stall of the converter. If you want to tighten one up, you can use Allison Trans fluid. Type VI and III are about the same for viscosity. Last I checked, all our trans maintenance for most GM transmissions have changed over to TypeVI as the prefered fluid.
Dexron VI and III are frictionally different fluids. Dexron VI utilizes a synthetic base fluid and to meet it, other blenders must conform to this minumum. Dex VI is also much more shear stable and conforms to CAFE fuel efficiency guidlines. Some have reported that they do not care for it's shifting characteristics in a built automatic and have stayed with Dexron III(which is no longer licensed by GM,which is not anything to worry about). Dex III has been used in allison transmissions for years although they do have a factory fluid called Transynd which is very expensive and works ok in some non allison applications. I have found that Redine D4 synthetic ATF and Amsoil work very well in most domestic autos.
A good rule of thumb when experimenting with a new ATF is to do a DIY cooler line flush. This way you remove 99% of the old fluid and have little to no cross contamination. That way you reap the full benefits of the new fluid and its unique characteristics are not masked or diluted by the old fluid.
Last edited by 355TurboLT1; 01-28-2010 at 07:15 PM.
01-28-2010, 01:54 PM
#29
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i got a rebuilt 4l60e with a yank 3600 and run Mobil 1 full synthetic since its been rebuilt..i haven't seen a problem with that yet. you would think since the converter is smaller and runs a little hot even with a cooler you would want to run a synthetic to be on the safe side. but hey thats just my opinion.
